Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Cool,
what about bilstiens? Everyone used to say they were the best. Are thru even in the msame leauge as tokico and koni? Is it the lack of adjustability? Just curious, I plan to upgrade my kyb's whenever I get back around to working on mine.

Steven6282

Where is a good place to order tokico's from? Summitracing doesn't appear to carry that brand. They got Konis and then the next step down is KYBs.

I found one website that sold tokico's (but were out of stock), and on a pure price comparison, the tokico whites where about the same price as the KYBs. Does anyone know where KYBs would rank in the performance category?

I just really can't convince myself to spend twice as much on a shock. I don't see where the technology can be that different in them to make them that much of an improvement. If anyone lives near SC (even NC or GA would be fine) and has sets of Konis and Tokicos and wants to prove me wrong then let me know

ZZ3 Z28

I've read a lot of posts lately and there was a thread about adjustable shocks, specifically Konis and the idea was that Konis are a firmer ride and most people, quote unquote, either leave their adjustment in position 0 or 1 due to the firmness of a higher setting of 2 or higher. The 0 or 1 setting is where people settle on because a higher setting is like riding on a brick, or some such thing. I ordered non-adjustable Bilsteins because I wanted to upgrade from old Gabriels and, I'm old and achey. I don't relish the thought of climbing underneath my car adjusting something that I may adjust once a year. I'll leave that up to you kids!

AM91Camaro_RS

I wouldn't think you could put tokicos and kybs in the same ballpark as konis. In racing, the more money you can afford to spend on shocks, the better you'll be. there is more technology in higher priced parts. If you're wanting to build the best handling 3rd gen, hands down, put koni yellows on it unless you want to spend more and get custom built...

camaro1185

I got mine from SHOX.com

ZZ3 Z28

Here is another reason why I went with Bilsteins instead of the common wisdom of Koni yellows/reds. The Bilsteins are an inch shorter than a conventional shock so they compensate for a shorter spring, i.e. a lowered car. I think I now know why my car rode so dam hard with the Gabriels installed because those shocks were oem equipment and were compressed more than they should have been resulting in a stiffer ride. Are not shocks supposed to be compressed to a 'happy middle' for the best ride qualities and not either extended or compressed away from that area for optimum ride characteristics? It's my theory, go ahead and poke holes in it, but I can't come up with any other explanantion.

So that poses a question then why I've read post after post here on TGO that says that Koni's have a stiff ride quality. First are the Koni's made for lowered cars? Second, if not but are installed on lowered cars, the same hard ride problem I experienced with oem Gabriels may be the same thing some people around here are experiencing with Koni's.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

To the OP. swaybars are important. And so is having a larger rims size. For cornering capabilities I would AT LEAST go with 17X8s. 18X10 would be best for the rear and 18X8 for the front. The tire choice is up to you, as I don't have alot of experiance with all the different brands, but I can tell you I'm perfectly satisfied with 225/50-17 Continental Extreme Contact tires up front and Nitto NT555 285/40-17s in the rear.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

I think 17"s are a better choice than 18"s. Some sidewall is good. Not many real profesional race cars with as short of a sidewall as most of us are using.

That's a good point about lowered strut applications. Everyone says you must get shorter shocks and struts for lowered cars, makes sense. Yet other than the sport truck market, you don't see many offerings for shorter struts and shocks.

Of course the aftermarket strut mounts for the front offers some solution to this, but for the rear, it is up to us to measure and compare to listings for approprite shorter shocks.

camaro1185

As for the rim, the goal has always been to leave the outside of the car looking mostly stock, so the 16's will be staying on. As for the tires, I have the falkin 512's and they are AMAZING. They grip so well when warm, and have heard from others who run those tires the same thing.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

No, the reason the car rode so bad with the Gabriels is b/c the Gabriels are terrible shocks. I used to have a set. I can assure you the Koni's ride great on a lowered car. Don't confuse stiff with harsh. The Koni's are stiff but ride great. My old Gabriels were harsh. The other thing to consider is the bump stops. On a lowered car, there is very little rear suspension travel available before the stock bump stop hits. With a shaved down bump stop, the ride quality comes back.

ZZ3 Z28

Okay okay okay, I believe you. Gabriels are oem replacements; low quality and affordable for the masses. Koni's, Bilsteins, et al are specific and engineered for the performance minded. The former and the latter perform the same function but are apples to oranges. A $39 shock will not do what a $163 shock is capable of. Shocks are one of the most important aspects of a good quality ride over sway bars, lca's, etc. Each thing performs a specific function but shocks will give you the feel needed to assess how well overall your car is performing.

The OP wanted the best ride ever, not everyone needs or desires a high priced shock. Ride quality is subjective, like music of clothes, so the more 411 the OP has in making his decision the better. A post like this is where people like me go to find out what others are doing in regards to their cars. All that information should be assessed and filtered to see what applies to that person's needs.

When I first modified my Camaro back in the mid-'90s, much of this stuff wasn't available. There was no internet to dig around for this stuff. Most of the time it was learned from talking to a guy at a car show or at the local speed shop. Some of it worked, some of it didn't. So I'm happy that places like TGO exist now so on the second go around of mods for my Camaro, I can figure out what works for me.

And I hope that the OP sees that just throwing wads of cash at something doesn't guarantee perfection. Not everything works precisely the same way for every one. I still have the original 23 mm rear sway bar but went for some Energy Suspension poly bushings and end links. I installed a UMI adjustable panhard bar and long ago installed a Rancho lowered suspension kit. The lca's were replaced a while ago with GMPP 50k durometer ones. And now new shocks. I think I may happy with what I've spent on it. What I need or desire won't be the same as the OP but at least he can see what some one else did. Cheers.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

It's my understanding that they are made to be able to handle lowered cars no problem. Koni is a performance shock company and I think theyre aware that the vast majority of their customers are rolling on lowered cars.

http://www.koni-na.com/sport.cfm

"Best KONl shock for all lowering springs"

I think the harsh ride has a lot to do with other factors than the shocks themselves. My ride is stiff but the Konis handle the bumps beautifully. I think certain tires, especially when the sidewalls get thinner and thinner, ride worse, and different cars have different spring rates and different weights and different tire pressures to go along with that. It varies a lot more than you'd think. Plus some people just have different tolerance levels for ride quality. A buddy of mine has Koni reds on 17s at stock ride height and thinks his car rides like a skateboard. I have cut IROC springs on 16's and I thnk my car rides stiff but comfortably.

Going from factory RS springs/factory 180k mile shocks/struts to Konis and IROC springs made a huge difference but it was a very nice ride. Going from IROC springs to cut IROC springs made it a lot harsher, but the Konis smooth out the harshness a lot. That's what they do - they dampen the spring oscillations. You can tell because the "road texture" for lack of a better word does get transmitted to the frame because they're not enough to really move the suspension. The car just rides over them. But the big bumps get absorbed drama free, which is nice and that's what the shocks and struts are supposed to do.

I even asked the girlfriend if she thought the Camaro had a rough ride and she said "nah". So if the lady can handle it, that tells you something.

At the end of hte day every car is different.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I honestly don't get all this talk about shorter shocks/struts... they don't limit your suspension travel, the chassis geometry and bumpstops limit it. You can remove the front bumpstops and only get a fraction of an inch more travel before the control arm hits the K-member on the back, there is no strut that will change that, and no strut that I know of will bottom on these cars. The rear shocks are not as obvious, but it is the same situation.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

it's not about limiting travel, it's about the shock operating stroke not being in the bottom part all the time.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

sure, but the travel is limited to the same point as it was before, so you're going to be at the end of it's travel at the same place. Putting a shorter shock there just moves the end of the suspensions travel to the middle of the shock's travel. If the shock has a specific rate then it makes _no_ difference, if it has a variable rate, the shorter shock will be on the wrong place in it's travel.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Agreed. It would be nice to have shorter shocks though so when you lift the body, the rear springs don't come unloaded. Just a "nice to have".

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I've heard that a few times, what springs do you have? I can't imagine a reasonable rate spring that would be short enough for that to be a problem without it being too stiff for a well balanced combination

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

It is a pretty typical weight jack setup with 10" 175lb/in spring. And honestly I have it bottomed out. I slightly shorter spring would be even better.

This is with Koni sports connected to the stock mounting points.

camaro1185

UPDATE: I have installed the following:

A-Arm bushings (Global west del-a-lum)
Eibach Pro Kit
Tokico Illumina 5 way adjustable shocks
J&M Strut Mounts
Ball Joints
Idler arm
Center link
Inner and outer tie rod
Poly swaybar mounts (34F 24R)
Poly end links
LS1 Brake Kit
ETC...





Next is the SFC, then the T56 swap

Couple questions, I took the car for a very short drive due to not having made the steering stops for the new ls1 brakes, but wanted to drive it to see if it tracked straight and if there were any noises. I think most of these problems were due to a really crappy alinment (one wheel points slightly one way the other another) so im going to do a quick at home alignment and drive it again, but what do you guys think could be the cause of these things I noticed?

-Tires seem to "scrape" when backing up or going forward when turned about 3/4 full lock.
-Have to keep the steering wheel a little less than 1/4 turn to the left to keep the car going straight.
-Have some brake related (i think) scrape when driving (pedal NOT depressed). It sounds like the brake wear sensors. Possibly the brake pads are scraping on the rusty rotors a bit? IDK?

Thanks for all the help guys!

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Get an alignment first before you start chasing problems. Problem 2 is definatley alignment related, and 1 could be as well. I would not mess with anything until you get it aligned.

camaro1185

Thanks, I am most definitely getting an alignment, but want to "rough" it in there before I even drive it to the place. Yesterday it felt borderline unsafe driving it was so out of wack. Its NOT unsafe being I am **** about checking, rechecking and triple checking all the nuts and bolt.

Just for reference, yesterday i went out to the garage and just looked at the car trying to figure out rationally why it drove so bad, and noticed the DS wheel is toed out where the PS is toed almost straight (so 0degreeds toe). I got out a measuring tape and there is a difference of 1" from the from of the tire to the back.

Its crazy its that out of wack since I set it as close as possible to the factory specs, but with all the new parts and lowering springs, I guess theres no way to keep it aligned the way it was.

Also, to set my mind at ease, just double checked the height of the idler arm/center link and they are dead on just as I had though.

AM91Camaro_RS

if its toed out 1". sounds to me like you need to toe the RF in the help bring your steering wheels back to center. I'd atleast get the inch out of it even if you're not too worried about the steering wheel right now.

Norm Peterson

1185 - I hope that you have somewhat above average tolerance for a harsh ride. It's been my experience in two different cars that Illuminas ride rather harshly in comparison to the level of control provided. It's not that the control is particularly bad (it's not) or even that the smooth road ride is either, just that you pay for it over every concrete expansion joint and slightly uneven railroad grade crossing. Yes, they're adjustable, but you'll dial out the control faster than you'll gain ride quality. I had hoped that the previous posters had convinced you into getting something a little better.

You'll want more than -0.75° camber, particularly with that strut front suspension. Learn how to DIY the alignment - it's not all that difficult given a flat place to set up on and some pretty basic measuring equipment (under $100, really).


Anyway, what you'll want to do next is enter a few autocrosses where you can drive the car hard enough to find out where you need to go from here without the risk of coming up hard against something solid or has flashing blue lights on the roof. Tire pressures, alignment, probably bar sizes if you can't adjust the ones you have, etc., etc. You see, it doesn't stop when you bolt the new parts on.


Norm

camaro1185

Thanks norm, the car is not my daily, and only get daily driven if its nice weather (maybe 2500 miles a year). I think I will be able to give up a little comfort for good handling in the car, but thanks for the consern.

I would love to learn a DIY alignment, and got a rough alignment of camber and toe in since it drove so bad initially. I hope to take it out today to see if that made a difference.

camaro1185

The car has been aligned, and all of the problems have been worked out except for the scrubbing of the tires in slow speed corning situations (parking lot, driveway etc). I was thinking, could a mis aligned idler arm cause this. I have pretty much ruled out the suspension and anything being overtightened. The only thing that came to mind is the idler arm mounted about 1/2" higher than the old one. I think I may have measured wrong or something...although I measured like 15 times. Just wondering if thats a possibility that its the idler arm.

I have been talking to lots of 3rd gen owners who are lowered, and some lower than me and they dont have this problem.

AM91Camaro_RS

I don't know if its already in here or not but, what wheels are you running? factory offset? it sounds like a scrub radius problem.

camaro1185

Yep, factory wheels, factory tire size.

camaro1185

Scrub radius is exactly whats happening. I just didnt know thats what it was called. When the wheel is turned full lock, the top of the tire is +camber. Whats the fix for that?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

i believe thats the 3rd gen issue with akerman angle. i believe the tie rod connection to the spindle needs to be outboard a bit more. not the easiest thing to do without a custom spindle. then wheel clearance becomes an issue.

AM91Camaro_RS

when you assemble the new struts on the spindle, you want to pull the top of the strut to the center of the car and the top of the "tire" ("" because you probably don't have the tire/wheel on the car) away from the car to take up what ever slack is in the bolt holes and then tighten the two mounting bolts. you wont want to do this now since you've had it aligned already...should do this before an alignment. the scrub radius is the imaginary line from the point that strut shaft intersects the stock bushing or aftermarket spherical bearing and the lower ball joint, then contacts the ground. (i hope that makes sense) The distance from that point on the ground to the center of the tire's contact patch is your scrub radius. The further that point on the ground is from the center of the tire's contact patch, the more you will notice what you're noticing. you won't get a lot of movement in those bolts but, it'll make a bigger difference at that point of the ground. this will change your camber setting is why you don't want to do it after the alignment is done.
what size tires are you running? 16" wheels? if you don't have a wonder bar, you may want one. and may need to look the frame over all around the steering box and make sure there are no cracks.

AM91Camaro_RS

86TA, by saying "outboard a bit more" you refering to the length of the steering knuckle.
Maybe someone can give me a factual explanation of the ackerman problem with these cars. Because I know (for a fact) that in oval track racing, we adjust ackerman by lengthening or shortening the steering knuckle on one side or the other. I do not believe that the factory would put a different length steering knuckle on one side than on the other...not on a street vehicle. you can easily get bump steer through the suspension travel but, ackerman?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

yeah, from what i've read, the tie rod hole on the spindle steering arm should be located more outboard, away from the car and more into the wheel. Yes that would lengthen the tie rod assembly as well.

AM91Camaro_RS

outboard as you are describing it won't necessarily cause ackerman. If you wanted to get real technical about it, it could. but, what it boils down to is the distance from the tie rod pivot point to the axis of rotation of the spindle; which is the axis that I mentioned above...imaginary line between the top of the strut mount and the lower ball joint. by changing that distance (which is the length of the steering arm or knuckle), you will change ackerman...moving the pivot point inboard or outboard, alone, won't change this length. Also, the length of the tie rod won't matter for ackerman. if will only effect toe-in/out.

camaro1185

Can this problem be fixed with a better alignment, maybe more camber? caster?

Here are my current specs:
-.2 Camber
5.2deg Caster
.06&.07 Toe In


If not, I may just put in stock replacement springs. I dont like the slow speed turning of this thing at all.

camaro1185

What I cant figure out is other people who have lowered cars some even lower than mine, dont seem to have the same problem.

camaro1185

Some pics at full lock:

AM91Camaro_RS

How about the wonder bar and possible cracks I mentioned above? is the camber issue the same turning the wheel either direction? do you notice differences from one side to the other? I don't even know what the factory specs are for the front end but those seem reasonable. doesn't seem like a lot of camber...is it the same on both sides? I wouldn't think it would be.

camaro1185

Yes, I have a wonder bar, and no there are no cracks.

The camber is the same on both sides.

Yes, same on both sides, should I have had more camber?

camaro1185

It looks like due to that first pic I posted, this has resulted, it seems to rub pretty good, its gotta be about a 1/16" deep. There are also 2 spots on the other side, but it does not seem like it is in line to where the wheel would touch. It seems like its touching on this side the worse, but yet it does it at full lock on both sides????

AM91Camaro_RS

I saw one place where someone reccomended -.5 on the left and -1.0 on the right for camber. If you plan on racing the car, you could maybe do -.75 on both side or -.75 on the left and -1.0 on the right. If its going to see mostly street use, easy driving, I'd probably stay at -.5 to -.75 to help the tread life just a little. really those pics don't look bad. you want the inside tire when you are turning to have positive camber and the outside tire to have negative camber. That way, under load, as the contact patch flattens out, you have more rubber on the ground on both tires.
what you are noticing...can you just mainly hear it scrubbing? or, is it kind of hopping or skipping? you don't have a locker in the rear end, do you? which rear lcas do you have? bushings or roto-joints or heim joints?

AM91Camaro_RS

is that the side wall of the tire bulge and rubbing? with factory a-arms, wheels and tires, you shouldn't have any issues with rubbing the wheel wells... even being lowered, I would expect that.

camaro1185

I will have to investigate more about what part of the tire hits. I think its between the tire tread and the bulge. That flat part

Yeah, I hear it scrubbing, and it tends to "understeer". For instance, if the wheel is turned to the left full lock, it will go more straight that it should. No hopping or skipping.

The rear end is a posi. Is got UMI solid LCA with poly bushings and relocation brackets.

AM91Camaro_RS

the audible scrubbing is going to happen. these are fairly long cars and they just tend to do that. They just don't turn that sharp real well. I thought you were referring to what I've heard others mention and that's hopping when turning sharp. Does the car understeer at higher speeds? My car with all factory suspension makes the scrubbing sound when turning sharp, too. I honestly wouldn't worry too much about it as long as it handles well at higher speeds. The lcas shouldn't have much of any effect at slow speeds. it is possible that you'll experience some binding from the poly bushings under heavier loads (corners at speed). But even that probably won't be much of an issue unless you get real serious about racing it.

camaro1185

I guess it does hop a bit when turning. And no it doesnt understeer at higher speeds.

Norm Peterson

It's OK for the inside front tire to be cambered positive at full lock, but if you then go look at the other front tire it should be looking at least as negative as it was when it was pointed straight ahead. There is no "fix" for this because it's not a problem. In fact, what you're seeing is the basis for the way caster is generally measured.

You will hear suggestions of intentionally setting either a little cross-camber or cross-caster for the specific purpose of having the car fight its own natural tendency to slide down toward the right side gutter on roads that are heavily crowned for drainage. I'd rather work with caster.


Norm

camaro1185

Thanks guys.

2 things came to mind which may be causing this.

1. The steering stops that I made may not be long enough, and when at full lock, I am over extending the steering pump.

2. I was going to throw the car on ramps and check number 1, and found that when I pushed the ramps under the car and up against both tires, it seemed that one went farther than the other. One side the wheel seems to be 1/4-3/8" farther back.

That may be the reason why its rubbing on one side and not the other. What would a non centered wheel cause?

camaro1185

I went and turned the steering wheel 90 to the right and both wheels turned the same. then went another 90 and the wheels are still turned the same angle on both sides.

I then turned the steering wheel 90 and 90 to the left and they dont have the same angle, what could cause this?

camaro1185

Its official, im an idiot. My centerlink was flipped around. The kicker is for some reason when i had initially installed it, I installed it wrong, but for some reason thought the inner tie rods mounted to the front. When I went to put the tie rods on they would not go through due to the taper, so i figured the centerlink was on wrong. I ended up spinning it around, and now I have to turn it yet again. Wow im a total idiot, but at least its an easy fix. '


Heres the question, is that going to mess up my alignment, or just the toe in/out??

Thanks for the help guys.

Norm Peterson

Only the toe.

Caster and camber are defined by the position of the lower ball joint (which goes back to the LCA chassis attachments) and the position of the strut in its upper mount. Things like tierods, centerlinks, idler arms and pitman arms, or steering racks (on R&P steering) don't affect those alignment specs at all. It's why final toe settings are left as the last adjustment.


Norm

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Haha, Matt, your def not an idiot. With how overly complicated the steering setup is on these cars, I can see that happening to a lot of people. Hell, when I was putting all my steering together with the new parts, the car had been apart for so long that I forgot how to put them back together! THANK GOD my brother's old camaro was sitting in the driveway, because I went out and looked at it as a template so that I could put mine back together correctly. Your not the only one. Glad you fixed the issue!