ericamaro89

I want to make a few mods on my 5.0 305 1989 Camaro RS. So far I have short hedmen hedders, flowmaster exhaust, shift kit, and a new air cleaner. I want to change my cylinder heads I narrowed it down to 2 that I saw that were good I want some more experienced camaro people to tell me their opinions and hopefully facts they know on these heads and maybe see if you have better recommendations. here are the links to the parts http://www.jegs.com/i/RHS/784/12410-02/10002/-1
http://www.trickflow.com/egnsearch.a...7&autoview=sku
I also need some recommendations on a intake manifold and camshaft for a 305 tbi engine.
And yes I plan to keep the 305 so no recommendations on an engine swap.

Thanks

torque_is_good

umm, then I guess you don't really want experienced people's opinions

I do wish you good luck with your project

bigreed91

i understand where he's coming from, though a 350 swap is the ultimate 305 mod, its not really theasable for every person, myself im in the navy based 700 miles from home so doin a 350 swap is out of the question but may happen one day. anyways i cant look at what heads you suggested because the internet aboard our ships will only let me go to certain sites, you could add a lil bit more info though like is this an everyday car, street/strip?, what are you looking to get out of it? also make sure you search and read around a lot, heads may not be the next thing you need to do next though you may want to, everyones experience here will help you determine that. definetly go read the stickies about tuning because your gonna have a lot of people tell you to tune! tune! tune!, hope this helps and good luck

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Visit RobertFranks' cardomain site it'll have the info you need to soup up the engine. you dont wanna run a 2.02 intake valve on a stock 305, the valve gets shrouded by the cylidner size and restricts flow so the 1.94 intake size is the best bet, Roberfrank is running zz4 heads. but if you need to keep egr thier are only certain option available. check out his cardomain.

Carlos773

iTrader: (3)

Its not hard to do an engine swap. Stop being scared of it or thinking its a big deal/job to do.

You won't find alot of people giving the right advice on here besides the good ol 350 swap.

Ron U.S.M.C.

No mater what you chose to do at some point you will want to change the gear ratio to something a little more aggressive "if" it has not been done yet. I went with a 3.42 ratio,28 spline Eaton Posi.,new 28 spline axles to match and caped it off with a L.P.W. support cover.(gertal).What a difference it made.With that set up it lays down to the road every thing my little 5.0 can push.

1Broke_camaro

honestly from my point of view if your going to tackle swapping heads on the motor you might as well pop a few more bolts off and pull the engine (if you can find a motor for decent price)

thomas1976

With the TFS 175 heads, comp cam 8-500-8 or similar, adequate fueling and a decent tune, 300 fwhp should be easy with the LO3 short block.

Even a LO5 will need heads, cam, fueling and tuning to make that power.
Of course, the LO5 with the same heads and cam mentinod abowe will make more power then the 305.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

man it's like these threads about pumping up a 305 never end!

WilliamSilver

iTrader: (6)

yeah these threads are stupid.

Should all just stick to the topic though, he said 305, so we'll give him 305 advice.

150 wet shot

advance your timing to 15* BTDC

let her rip

then go LS1

thomas1976

There a couple of 305 TPI members running nice heads with a decent cam, there is nothing wrong with that.

Would be nice if more LO3 owners could plan an effective head and cam swap.

WilliamSilver

iTrader: (6)

There's plenty of good head and cam combos but the price for the hp gains isn't really worth it unless you wait and get great prices.

Plus you have to deal with the big restrictions. Heads suck. Cam sucks. Stock exhaust sucks. Fuel system sucks. It's an economy engine.

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

swap in a newer 350 engine.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

some of us got too far in before we knew it!

we are just trying to stop others from doing the same thing!

Ron_90

To my understanding, the heads don't suck that bad when ported. The cam sucks, but you can always swap in an LT1 or an L31, with used parts exhaust is like $3-400, and the TBI system can be modded and new chips/EBL flash used.
That's what, around $5-700 in mods that'll net you a decent running engine that could kick the snot out of a "performance" Civic? Not too bad. And if you're like me and aren't going to race it (with the exception of the bet I made with two of my friends.. 1984 Porsche 944, 1979 Camaro Z/28 350; and there's the possibility of a 1995 Firebird V6 getting added to the mix), and are just going to use it for commuting and pleasure, I don't see why keeping the 305 is so wrong. Don't hear any 5.0 Mustang guys complaining this much.

Plus, everybody's got a 350.

/endrant

Edit: I know I'm the new guy around here and that I'm definitely less experienced, but I don't mean any disrespect.
It's simply kind of annoying to always hear people shoot the 305 down when there's always stuff that can be done with it if someone decides they, for whatever reason, want to keep it. We're already better off than the V6 guys haha

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

its not all about cubic inches, the ford 302 comes with a lot better heads, factory headers, a more aggressive camshaft, and has a ton more aftermarket parts for it. who wants to keep up with a civic? we want to keep up with cars with v8's not no freaking crap civic.

Carlos773

iTrader: (3)

I love the ''Everyone has a 350, but I want to be special!'' statement everyone gives when asked why in gods earth they want to even put money into a 305. Everyone has a 350 for a reason and no its not because they want to hold hands and play patty cake with other 350s cars owners...

WilliamSilver

iTrader: (6)

Keeping up with a lightly nodded civic isn't something to be happy about.

Im not saying you can't make great power on a 305lightly im saying its not worth the money it would take.

I've got ebl
I've got all the supporting mods minus the heads

And I still will probably only run mid 14s at BEST with out a power adder.. And I mean at best. Im only finishing my build cause im so far in it already. Could have an ls1 swap right now and be sitting real pretty.

Point is do what you want but really pay close attention to the advice of those who have done it or are currently doing it

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

What he said It really depends on how far you want to go. There have been AT LEAST 5 of these threads that have been posted here lately. Read my Cardomain, read the stickies and SEARCH!!!!. after that good luck.

thomas1976

There are not plenty of good 305 heads.
If we would thake the $/hp ration into account, we would not chose a thirdgen.

Just that we do not lose track of what we are talking about, the OP has done all the easy bolt ons and the next step is obwiously cam, heads + cam or engine swap.

From this point on, every $ spent for the fueling and tuning will have to be spent for a 350 too (except if you are refering to a stock 190-220 hp LO5).

Fueling system, TPI pump and VRFPR is all you need.

Today, the LO3 is not a economy engine anymore.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

IMO if I wasnt in california. Id get some vortec heads, have egr burned out of my chip/ebl tuning. put an lt1 cam in it, full exhaust, stall converter, gears, performer rpm 4bbl carb intake with tbi adapter, different air cleaner setup, and call it a day. that is all I would have done and you'd likely be in the 14.20-14.40 range in the 1/4 depending on altitude. I went too deep, so i am stuck. So im going deeper. If I had to do it all over again since I am in cali. I would have went LS1 swap and made it emissions legal by getting all the proper paperwork.

thomas1976

With the TFS 175 heads and something like compcam 8-500-8, that 305 would be making a lot more power, and pass inspections too.

The LT1 cam is good for its price 20-40$, but to really wake up the 305 with nice heads, better get a performance oriented cam.

The LS1 swap will probably end up costing as much as building a 350-383ci TBI engine that will make more power and be faster then the LS1 swap.

Ron_90

All true statements about the 302, but eventually all those things would end up getting replaced with better components if someone were to build the engine up. I'm pretty sure that after a porting our heads flow at least slightly better than their stock heads.
If you have the money and aren't grossly prejudiced towards either Ford or Chevy, then yes, the Mustang will give you more 5 liter bang for your buck. Personally I couldn't afford a Mustang in the same condition as my Camaro, and with the durability and ease of modification Chevy small blocks are renown for, I don't feel bad about my purchase or feel like I need to swap the engine out.

Fyi, I just used the civic as an example, and notice I said, "beat the snot out of," implying that it can kill the average high-schooler's car and keep up with other V8's- 14's aren't terrible.



Also, if I'm not mistaken, a 305 can be stroked out to 334 with the use of a Chevy 400 crank after the main bearing journals are ground down. Probably not very practical, but it sure would be a wild build.

ericamaro89

Yeah this is a daily driver car so I dont plan on racing it.. might do it here and there depending on the situation, but it wont be a strip car.. I just want to beef up the 305.. I know a lot of people will say that Im waisting my time with that engine but I'm happy with it.. Dont consider doing a swap soon due to a lot of factors, maybe if I had a secondary car I would do it.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

i was talking about bare minimum money and have a decently fast 305, of course thier are way better head and cam options.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

Carlos, I'm not sure you know what easy or hard means, or the context in which those words should be used. I base that assumption on the simple fact you associated the action or verb of performing/completing a successful "engine swap" with the words "not hard", not a "big deal/job to do", and implying that it is not an intimidating project by saying he should stop being scared, which I dissagree with. Just in case you are confused with the meaning of the words, I'll define the synonym of not hard (easy) and then give the definition of the antonym of that word, along with the synonyms of both defined words for you:

Easy: not causing problems or difficulty, or not requiring much effort, work, or thought,. without difficulty or the need for hard work. Does not require allot of time, can be done quickly, not time consuming.

Some Synonyms:
Simple
Trouble Free
Straight Forward
Effortless
Uncomplicated
Painless
Unproblematic




Some antonyms (that is a word that the opposite of another word):

Hard (here is the definition of hard for you so you know what that means)
Hard: involving a great deal of mental or physical effort or exertion,. doing something with energy or industriousness,. difficult or awkward to do or achieve,.

Some Synonyms of Hard:

Time consuming
Difficult
Challenging
Tough
Tricky
Problematic
Demanding
Testing
The list goes on.

Here is a sentence you would find easy or any of it's provided synonyms in: Swapping the light bulb was easy.

Here is a sentence you would find hard or any of it's provided synonyms in:
Chopping down the large tree with the dull axe was hard.

Here is one you can fill in yourself to see which fits better: Performing the engine swap was:

Now then, if you looked at the engine swap threads posted here at TGO, or any thread involving the performing an engine swap, including those with question about doing so, which group of words do you usually find associated with the overall project? In my personal experience and in the majority of the threads I have witnessed, it would be the group of words under the word Hard. I mean this post not to be condescending, insulting, or demeaning; neither do I intend to "wound" your reputation. If you find it so, let me inform you that I am not going out of my way on this post to make sure feelings do not get hurt. When you, or anyone for that matter, posts something like that, it aggravates me greatly. If you have done or do engine swaps, you may find it easier because you have experienced it and know what and how things need to be done optimally. But even then, it is still a challenging task. For someone who may not have allot of help, time, experience, or knowledge about doing such things, it is even more so of a challenge.

Now, to the OP. An engine swap truly is the best thing for that car. It is hard but it'll be worth it, plus then you can part out your 305 and use it to mod the new engine (which you can find cheaply and easily in most cases). I wouldn't swap out the heads or Cam in that 305 if I were you, because that is also what I would define as being hard and/or time consuming, not to mention it’s not worth it in the end. If you have that much time and money on your hands for those mods, just go get a new engine. You've already done the majority of the mods I would suggest for that 305, with the exception of a new intake manifold and a new computer chip I believe. Best of luck to you, and if you really want to go all out on this 305 business (which I don't suggest you do), I can give you the links to a few other posts here on TGO that you would find helpful. Hope this helps.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Lol Thane you crack me up with your posts sometimes!

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

You are most welcome undercover. Sorry about the Rant carlos. It wasn't directly because of what you said, just that I've heard it a 1000 times. "Just do an engine swap! It's easy as pie!" for some of you it really is as easy as making a pie. Things just click for you. You see how everything works and what happens, like Neo from the Matrix. Your mind just works at a different level. But besides the comprehention aspect, plain and simple, a swap just isn't practical for all of us. However I do ever so strongly recomend an engine swap with the 305. It is so benificial. Just know it'll be rough. Rant #2 over. SKELITOR out.

Ron U.S.M.C.

I my opinion if you are keeping the 5.0 and have done all of the bolt-ons including the exhaust its time to focus on putting all of that on the ground. I have a "89" Iroc with the same engine and trans. and I did the bolt ons including a shift kit with Corvette servo.and a timing advance. Then my focus became getting rid of the one wheel peal that I find truly "embarrassing" and the 2.73's had to go. I saved my money and bought one piece at a time. Gears first(3.42), than L.P.W.support cover,than the big one = A 28 spline Eaton posi. then the the 28 spline axle's to go with it. Than the install, all one piece at a time. When it was finally done I was "amazed" at how it totally changed the car and the way driving it feels. It totally woke up the little 5.0 ,and other than a 350 swap it is the best mod out there.IMO.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

ronusmcmmsmrmressrrmmrrr. Do you have a chip yet? That really helps witht these computer controled cars. That is an awesom Iroc by the way. did you just make that your sig? Cause that thing is sswwweeeet!

Carlos773

iTrader: (3)

After you hear see the forum cluttered with the same questions you tend to just get straight to the point and just suggest to swap it out.

For most it is a ''hard'' thing to do. I was one of them. 18 years old, almost no tools, no hands on experience and All I had was my computer and time to learn. Hell check my first threads you will see how I started. I also went down the wrong path and wasted money on the 305 to get it to be ''fast''. I did everything to it, LT1 Cam, Lt4 Springs, Edelbrock Performer Intake, Bored out TBI, Edelbrock TES Shorties through 3' catback, Shift kit and a 2200 stall and topping it off with a mail order chip. Yes it was a fun car and it will be enough for most people on here but once you take a ride in a LS1/LT1 car you will see why everyone goes that route. Hell my buddies 89 GTA with a L05 bottom end and a Tpi top feels faster than my old L03..


My advice is to keep reading. Go through the build threads on here. Get a part time job and save up. Start picking up tools along the way. If you insist to keeping the L03 follow Roberts path. Dont waste money on things like ''performance chips''..

Ron U.S.M.C.

Thanks for the compliment .I payed $500.00 for it then hauled it out of this guys back yard.That was 6 years ago.
No I don't have a chip yet but have considered it.I really don't know that much about how the chip works. I know this ,you have to be careful with CA smog testing,and I don't know if it would change a few things that could cause a no pass.

torque_is_good

that about sums it up and the comparison to a Ford 302 doesn't hold water either. IF there was no such thing as a 350 SBC then building up a 305 would be the correct thing to do. Ford owners do not have the same option as SBC owners.

So, if you are seeking performance, then that means you are going to open up the engine anyway and do it correctly, and machine it, then why not start with a larger block, machine it, re-use what you can ( the beauty of the sbc is parts interchange)

since the heads, cam etc would need replacing for "performance" on the 305 then a 350 block is still viable because you'd need them for it as well.

yes, you can make the LO3 a little bit better but when does the term "throwing good money to bad" begin to sink in? It's not 305 haters; no sir. In fact, I rebuilt a LO3 just recently. But, it wasn't for performance resaons, it was just to have a rebuilt engine for reliability. I already have 2 vehicles which will outperform the L98 3rd gens.

so, good luck with what you decide.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Well ford does have the 351 windsor

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

Doh!

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Its more than just cubic inches, its the stroke, the rod ratio, heads, cam, a lot of variables. the chevy 305's are hindered by bore, heads, cam. you can stroke it, or you can get a 350 that is bigger than if you stroked it.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

And then you can stoke that out. I like the Sound of a 335 Stroker, but a 383 stoker sounds about 52 cubic inches and prob at least 100hp and 150lbs tq better. Depending on the motor of course.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

Yes remember you stroke it get more cubes, but your still limited by bore size on the size of cylinder head you can run. So is thier a head you can run on there that'll feed the 335 cubes? probably, but thier are a ton of options for 350's and 383 strokers.

torque_is_good

and they also had the 351 Cleveland and also the 352

my comment was about the ability to interchange parts on SBC's. Wanna guess how much can be interchanged between a 351 Cleveland and a Windsor? How about with the 302. or better yet, the 352?

But, this is a chevy forum

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

I have no Idea. Would you care to inform us of the interchangability of a 302 or a 351 Windsor?

-AO-

The 351 is a tall deck so it will need a different intake than a 302.

The 305 and 350 have the same deck height.

My 310 ran a 13.9 @ 98 with L30 059 Vortec heads, 1.6RR's, and stock LO3 cam.

Ron_90

Yup, I mentioned that a while back in here haha. I like the sound of "334" better though

Ported stock or vortec heads+Chevy 400 Crank+ LT1 cam = beast combination for under $500.
Of course, this is only for people who are hellbent on squeezing the most power from their 305 and don't plan on racing.

UnderCover89TBI

iTrader: (25)

500? seriously?

Ron_90

Just guesstimating here.. fill me in if I'm wrong anywhere

Home ported stock heads- $60 (I'm assuming we'd go through a few bits and replace the valve springs)
Chevy 400 Crank- $25-50 (Junkyards around here charge $25 for cranks)
LT1 or L31 Cam- $50
I don't know what it would cost to have the crank bearings machined, so if you could fill me in on what machining costs, that might fill in the blanks.

Obviously there is a lot more that has to go into the engine, but for less than or about $500 you could add some decent power through those three things (heads, crank, cam)

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

Where can I get an LT1 cam for 50 bucks?

Ron_90

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LT1-Roller-C...sories&vxp=mtr

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

if you've got paypal i've got one you can have right now. seriously

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

It's going to cost WAAYYY more than $500 to put a 400 crank in a 305. you'll need custom pistons and machine work. With that much money you might as well build a 383. But.............I wouldn't mind building a 335 on the cheap. not for a true performance build but just for the ***** and giggles really. I think a perfectly square motor (3.75 bore and 3.75 stroke if it could be done) would run pretty strong. Plus, I honestly woldn't waste my time with either of those cams after having the ZZ4 cam. Truthfully I want to bump it up to the Hotcam due to the fact that it wouldn't take me much more to tune it in.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

I'd love a ZZ4 cam. Of course I'd also love a ZZ4. Anyone got one of those for 50 bucks?

Ron_90

Well as far as I've gathered, machine shop labor should cost $100-250, depending on if you want to get the camshaft balanced. I'm not sure if you'd have to grind the bearings, but I think grinding the crank is all that's required.
Why would I need custom pistons? As far as I know the stock pistons can be run even with NOS up to a certain point (one92rs in my TBI build thread)- the only thing I'd probably have to do is swap some 350 rods in. Of course, a piston rebuild kit would be welcome, but the stock pistons should hold up.

As for that LT1 cam, I'll PM you if I don't get these headers I'm looking to buy