RS-Chevy-SS

Man this project is getting more and more difficult. Makes the LO3 look like a better choice everyday for simplicity.

So lets get this list straight. To get this to work I need to

1. Modify the WP
2. Modify the Intake Mani
3. Change Injectors
4. Tune
5. Do something to make the timing cover work

Is there anything else that I need to do? I was looking at the L30 with the idea it would be more or less a direct swap.

jokerZ71

None of the above is very complicated @ all.They are just minor mods.Nowhere near as involved as swapping the engine.You can find the w/p with the extra port.Worse case,you may have to tap the port for a nipple.If you don't feel confident doing any of the above,i'd definitely reconsider trying to swap engines.If you wanna stay L03,thatks your choice,but,the L30 is well worth the small amount of extra work & parts.Other than the intake,you are not looking @ very much money or labor vs a straight L03 to L03 swap.Do you have anyone w/ experience that can lend you a hand?Most of the info is available here & other places by searching the forum.

RS-Chevy-SS

Im sure I could do the mods, I'm just apprehensive about having to modify new parts. I wanted a more or less direct swap. From what ive seen, I need to swap both the timing cover and crank gear?

jokerZ71

You will need to swap the cover.The Vortec crank gear is thinner to allow room for the reluctor wheel.Some ppl change gears & some simply leave the reluctor in place to take up the difference.Either way,the gear is simply removed with a basic puller you can buy,or,rent from most parts stores.Again,it's not complicated @ all.If you wanted to use the Vortec w/p,you could pick up a pully/fan assembly from most pull-a-parts for very little.Maybe $20.Drilling the thermostat is also a quik fix.None of the mods are so costly or time involved to warrant not doing it in order to gain 50 to 60 HP & have a much more efficient & durable engine.

RS-Chevy-SS

Just want to say thanks so much for all your help. So to get this squared away, Im required to change the timing cover correct? Is the reluctor already installed so I can just unbolt the old cover and bolt the new? Next for the WP, I will use the LO3 WP. I don't see any areas that can be popped out to plumb the bypass. Will I need to cap anything on the intake? Is there an area to run the heater core bypass on the intake? Is there anything else I need to know about this swap? I hate suprises.

jokerZ71

I'll sit down later today & make you a complete list of what you need to do & the available options.To be clear,you have decided to use the GMPP TBI/Vortec intake?Correct?

RS-Chevy-SS

That's correct, Ill used the GMPP intake. I'm getting conflicting info on if the water pump will work on the L30 block.

Edit: Im actually open to a carb intake as long as there are no clearance issues

RS-Chevy-SS

Any luck?

jokerZ71

I talked to my brother in law, who did this swap in a truck.It's been awhile,but,he used a water pump that cam w/ a 1/2" NPT port that had a square plug installed.He simply removed the plug & replaced it w/ a 1/2" npt x 5/8" hose barb for the bypass.He is a mgr @ O'Rielly's & gonna try to get me a part # for the pump.For the timing cover,he initially installed an old cranksensor in the plastic vortec cover & ran it as is.He did change it later during a cam change w/a chrome cover,simply becus it wuz cheaper than the plastic & looked better.Up to that point,he had no problems with it.When he changed covers,he said he also changed timing gears & chain just cause with a standard timing set for roller cam setup.This swap was in a 92 truck,so,his old 305 had a flat tappet cam.He also had to do some minor bending & snipping of the MAP sensor bracket & couple of others becuz the Vortec intake doesn't have the center bolts which secured the brackets.He said it's easy & no big deal.He deleted & plugged EGR with an EGR blockoff plate.He says he kept a journal of the swap & will try to find it,but,he can't promise.He thinks it may have went with the truck when he sold it.He also said that drilling the T'stat also worked well in lieu of a bypass.He was using a Holley TB,so,can't really tell me about tuning.He did his own w/ EBL flash.

RS-Chevy-SS

Would really like the part number for the pump. So i could just essentially run the stock cover an throw a sensor in there correct?

jokerZ71

That is correct on the timing cover.The waterpump you will need is Bosch #98090 Airtex#AW5049H AC/Delco # 252719.

RS-Chevy-SS

Thanks for that! Got my build list together today. Total price is through the roof!

RS-Chevy-SS

Update!

Got all the parts ordered today including the motor, GMPP TBI Manifold, and all the gaskets and sensors. Enlisted RFMaster's assistance for the install and he will be directing the overall job. Will keep the thread posted!

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Seems like a costly choice. Are you aware of alternatives?

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...ictor-sb.shtml
Vortec is 2912

I run a holley projection TBI. Rated to 6500 rpm

RS-Chevy-SS

Very aware. GMPP was chosen for clearance issues and ease of installation. After factoring in the cost of the adapter and brackets, the difference was only about $70

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Holley is 5.4 in at rear and 3.91 at front. Fits under my 84 vette hood with a low profile(2.00 inch) blower carb bonnet. .01 inch to spare...

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Keep in mind he is only running a 305 with a 191/196 @ .050 cam in it and ~250 flywheel HP. It will be fine for his application. Not to mention everything more or less bolts up.

RS-Chevy-SS

Very Nice. I didn't have the specs for the intakes I was looking at nor did I want to go through the research of pairing up an adapter and air cleaner.

Exactly. The goals for this project were as follows

1) Fresh reliable motor preferably with warranty.
2) More power than stock but no need to hit 300 range
3) Ease of swapping with the LO3
4) Mainly used for weekends. IE Errands, theatre, shopping.
5) Lowest cost

With these goals in mind, the L30 was the best choice. Furthermore the cost trade off between the GMPP intake and a carb intake was justified IMHO due to the ease of installation. We already have to modify the water pump, tuning, maybe fueling etc. I didn't want to add anything else to the list.

RS-Chevy-SS

Got the motor and intake! Just waiting on gaskets and supporting parts.

RS-Chevy-SS

Small update. Got everything in but RFMaster is tied up for a few weeks so the install is on hold sitting in my garage.

Side note, I researched a problem with the stock 305 exhaust manis not bolting up to the vortec heads. Remedied this by ordering some new Hooker 2460 headers and matching Y Pipe. This build is getting really expensive!

jokerZ71

What problem did you have w/ the manifolds?Other than the EGR port in in the drivers side L30 manifold,they should be basically the same.The headers will be a really good upgrade.Just curious as to the issue w/ manifolds.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Glad you did not pick up the LG4/L03 replacement stuff.

RS-Chevy-SS

I had heard of an issue referencing the 7th bolt for the stock LO3 manis not being found on vortec heads. So I ordered the headers to eliminate that issue. I also figured the headers would boost performance a bit.
As in manifolds? I originally planned to use stock LO3 manifolds for cost effectiveness.

jokerZ71

I think you'll be glad in the end with the headers.The manifolds were gonna really choke you down.

RS-Chevy-SS

I think so aswell. Im kind of worried about melting wires now though

jokerZ71

I know you don't wanna spend more money,but,I use Livewires by Performance Distributors.They are some of the best wires you can use.They run about $120 per set,but,they will last a long time.They are a ready to use wire w/ no cutting or crimping.Each wire is numbered for the correct cylinder.They come in blue,yellow,red,purple,or black.They hold up really well to headers & high heat.Taylor"s are good as well @ about half that cost.Accel's suck!!! I burn a set up in 25 to 30,000 miles.The "Livewires" are high,but they are well worth it.I can usually get 100,000 miles from a set.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I have a set of Accell 300+ race wires that are 10 years old, have over 100K on them, and they are still in great shape. Despite being in a G-van with headers. I only buy cut to fit wires, fit them into looms that actually work and build them around the headers to give them ample clearance. Also do not hesitate to use an insulated boot protector if needed.

RS-Chevy-SS

So what do either of you recommend that is the most cost effective and essentially plug and play? I keep seeing something about 90 degree boots.


Side note- i think this motor is going to scream now with a open exhaust and open element. The headers and Y pipe will mate to a flomaster 3" catback. Will delete the magnaflow cat unfortunately.

jokerZ71

I would bolt the headers up & get my wire routing layed out on the stand.You will know more then about which boots will work the best with clearance you have.Like I said the Livewires,IMO,are the best.Look em up & take a look @ them @ www.performancedistributor.com. Taylors are good as well.I just never had any luck with Accel.Not so much as burnt from heat,but,the wires themselves just not lasting very long.Breaking down,etc.

RS-Chevy-SS

What part number do you list for the taylors? I'm wondering if I can squeeze 240hp out of this motor with the free flowing exhaust.

Very worried about how long the original 700r will stand behind this monster.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Considering the marine 305 Vortec is rated at 250 HP to the propshaft (about 275 at the crank) I would think it is very likely to hit that power number.

RS-Chevy-SS

Right but didn't you say your L31 dynod at 198?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Yes I did....That was stock in my 1997 Express. Turning a gigantic mechanical fan, breathing through a horrible intake and the factory truck exhaust manifolds, terrible intake manifild choked with injector crap, crappy stock cats, through the 55 gallon barrel sized muffler, with a factory tune that had the wide open throttle air fuel ratios in the 10s and only 23-24° of timing advance.

Not to mention it was on a loaded Mustang dyno that reads ~10% lower than a Dynojet.

jokerZ71

IDK a part # on the taylors.I would think with a tune,upgraded injectors,& a good exhaust,you should be in the 275 HP range.Maybe a little more.A good 700R4 should handle that fine.Heat & burnouts are what will kill it.Keep it cool & it'll last.Make sure the TV cable is properly adjusted.

RS-Chevy-SS

I see. This vortec will be running the stock LO3 tune until I can get this ALDL cable to be seen by tunerpro. Then ill get a log to tuned performance for a new prom. Thought about EBL but the cost is too much

We were thinking of just bumping the fuel pressure. RF said 350 injectors may cause an idle problem. This 700r does need a rebuild eventually. May do a tranny flush to prolong life.

RS-Chevy-SS

Update:

Got some work done today thanks to RFMaster for the help! Pix below.

EGR block off was too small and the Driver header O2 bung doesn't have the hole drilled out. Summit said we must drill it ourselves. Odd

RFmaster

Thanks for posting progress photos. Just few comments and observations from my side:

1) From timing cover swap - GM assembly process calls for a dab of gray RTV at the corners where timing cover meets oil pan and about 1" up the half moon of the timing cover. Oil pan rail are dry - no RTV. That should put this discussion to bed once and for all.

2) GM still uses conventional link timing chain. Aghh

3) Powder metal rods are standard on L30 - L31 engines. These are plenty strong for stock applications.

4) Plenty of 'witness marks' on the engine - clearly indicates well defined assembly - check-off process.

5) Balancer woodrof key slot had some gray RTV - never seen this before in OE engines!

6) All machined surfaces are clean from charter and tool marks.

//RF

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Thays exactly how I install my oil pan gaskets even in older blocks I retrofit to a 1-piece gasket.

The 8800+ gvw engines have a single roller chain. Atleast they no longer use the cam gear with nylon teeth.

The woodrof key on the original engine in the 97 Express had the same dab of RTV. My old 305 and TBI 350 did not, but my crate L05 did.

That engine is going to breathe so much better than stock with the vortecs, the bigger cam, better intake manifold, headers and larger Y-pipe.

RS-Chevy-SS

How much HP do you think I can squeeze out of it fast? I'm anxious to get it dropped it but scheduling is tough for me and RF.

RS-Chevy-SS

Running into some issues. First the block off plates sent by summit didn't fit. Looks like I was receiving universal plates. Found A TBI EGR block off plate on ebay that appears to be an exact fit. Next need dipsticks and plug wires. Below are my choices. Any input?

Plug wire 90 degree for headers
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...t/model/camaro

Oil tube with bracket
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...et/model/c1500

Without bracket
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...et/model/c1500

RS-Chevy-SS

Quick update. Got the new EGR block off from eBay. Perfect fit. Plug wires and dipstick should be here Monday

RS-Chevy-SS

Need your help on this guys. Both me and RF have been debating on what the motor will need as far as fueling goes.

My calculations show that the motor needs 76PPH per injector to support 260crank HP. This can be accomplished by 65lb injectors from the caprice at 18psi.

The issue we have is should we go that route and risk running rich everywhere else? Or just bump stock injectors to 25PSI which will yield 76PPH.

Side note. Just ordered a new fuel tank, filter, and EP241 TPI pump to adequately supply the fuel.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I know you two are just trying to be safe, but I feel your calculated fuel need is a little high for the HP you will make. I also feel your HP prediction is a bit high for the stock camshaft, but not out of the question.

I see many Vortec head 305/350 engines pull a BSFC around .45 near peak HP, real world on the dyno.

260 hp X .45 lb/hp/hr bsfc = 117 lbs hr
117/.85 %DC = 138 lbs/hr
138 lb/hr / 2 injectors = 69 lb/hr

I feel that a set of 68# @ 13 psi cop car injectors will fuel the engine at 14 psi with room to spare.

RFmaster

Thanks Fast355 for chiming in on this subject.

IMHO, we can initially fire-up 305 Vortec with existing 55 lb-Hr injectors at stock fuel pressure levels. Once everything is squared away - new tank, and higher pressure FP (EP241) are in place we can install standard 61lb-hr truck injectors with higher pressure spring from TBI parts. Once we know actual fuel pressure with a new spring BPC value can be calculated.
Injector swap is easy - just exchange fuel pod (undo fuel lines, three bolts and torx screwdriver). However, as we all know ECM tables will have to be updated to make use of higher flowing injectors and to prevent host of other issues. But we are getting too far ahead. We still have a lot 'wrenching' to do before we get to this point!

//RF

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Would not be a bad plan. IIRC the Turbo City tuned car that GM High Performance put vortec heads and a big cam in that made 257 RWHP only had 61# injectors at 14 psi. A 55 lb/hr injector will feed the engine up to the point it can no longer deliver enough fuel and it will start to run lean. My ~200 RWHP 305 would pull up to about 4,500 rpm with the 305 injectors before they went static and the engine broke up badly. Swapped in some 350 injectors, reset the BPWC and it would pull smoothly up to 5,500 rpm.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I presume no VAFPR. Would not the above provide the same fuel? I dont quite understand. I think what you are looking for is duty cycle at WOT of 85% or less.. That being said you fuel accordingly for FP and or inj size. Now at idle there is a point where you can over fuel. If you overfuel idle it may jump asynch and idle gets funky. You then need to lock synch fueling. I run 75 lbs inj's at 14 lbs FP for idle with a VAFPR and see about 1.8 msec and idle is decent.

RS-Chevy-SS

Do you have part numbers on said injectors? I came up with these but not sure.

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/more...672&cc=1037427

New tank and pump set to be delivered tomorrow (4/3). Install scheduled for this Friday.

RS-Chevy-SS

Got a lot of work done today! Fuel tank had a cracked neck so replaced with new tank, ACdelco TPI pump and filter.

Ready to deliver for the new fuel requirements.

Ghettobird52

I hope your buying the injectors/FPR new. I pulled some 17084327 injectors in pod out of a 92 caprice (Vin code F), but unfortunately had bad luck with either the injectors or FPR because it caused a stalling in gear, rough idle problem. I learned my lesson the hard way, but not all of them are like that i bet.

Sweet to see a nice LO3(based) build is going on.

RS-Chevy-SS

RF is going to be sourcing the injectors from his local JY. He is pretty good at having them cleaned and flow tested. If not, they will be new.