darkecho

ok so i made an aldl cable and used winaldl to record stuff and heres what i got,

Code 22: TPS Low

Code 23: IAC (i think this is because i have my air cleaner off right now and its unplugged

Code 42: EST (dunno what this means

Code 54: Fuel pump relay failure (any way to check if the relay is dead?)

suggestions please! thanks!

symptoms are a high idle, according to winaldl it starts up and idles at around 1450RPM and then drops down to the lowest at about 750RPM, not sure if this is THAT high but it seems a little high for a TBI.

also, it seems to take a little while to turn over, possibly the fuel pump relay being dead.

Rob Wade

Hook up the iac. Thats probably why the idle fluctuates. Set the iac and tps properly. Are you sure its est? Sure its not esc (electronic spark control) If the fuel pump is working the relay must be frozen on. I always thought that when the relay goes the fuel pump won't run.

Vader

This is what I read for your error code definitions:

22 - TPS voltage low

23 - MAT sensor Low temperature fault (EFI/TPI/SFI)

42 - EST circuit grounded (HEI module failure)

54 - Fuel pump voltage low (below 2 volts) (EFI/TPI/SFI)

The ECM is reporting that there is not a good connection to the TPS and IAT/MAT sensors, and that the EST and fuel pump circuits are not reporting adequate signal to the ECM.

With that many diverse error codes, I'd suspect you either have a handful of sensors and devices that have failed simultaneously, the ECM has poor connections to the wiring harness, or one of the ground wires for the ECM (at the rear of the engine) has failed. Check the grounding at teh rear of the RH head and/or intake.

There may also be a wire harness problem. You should verify that the TPS and IAT/MAT sensors have a 5VDC reference voltage with the ignition turned on.

The long cranking before startup could be related to the IAT being disconnected. The S/D programming for your TBI relies to some extent on the intake air temperature reading to determine the correct amount of starting fuel. The TPS is also important in startup and running fuel. Verify power as suggested and reconnect the IAT, verify the TPS setting, and see if it starts better with everything connected and intact.

darkecho

ok so sorry guys but i reset the ECM and idled for about 10 minutes and dindnt get any of those errors back (i reconnected the IAC also)

so i guess i dont have any errors, unless i need to drive around for them to show up... the fuel pump relay seemed to not fail, maybe because i had been bypassing it to get all the fuel out when i replaced the pump..

i didnt get an EST, that was probably from when i checked the timing last, and then uhh yeah, i dont have any codes...

here were the idle specs


IAC: 24
Coolant Temp: 121
Map 1.1-1.2 volts
RPM: 700 (lowest it got after warming up)
TPS: .73 volts
INT: 128
O2: .654
Battery: 13.3 Volts
Knock Counter: 27
BLM: 135
Rich/Lean: 180


not really sure if that stuff helps at all, here were the flags checked
-Closed Loop
-Old High Gear
-BLM Enable

AIR divert solenoid on
Park/Neutral
No A/C Requested

and i got a bunch of random 1's in the spark counts tab, looks like
RPM/MAP
400/65 = 21
1400/30 = 1
1600/30 = 1
1600/45 = 1
2200/55 = 1
2400/50 = 1
2400/60 = 1

no idea what this stuff means haha but there it is, Thanks!

Vader

A vacuum leak can also lead to protracted cranking times before startup. Along with the typical suspects, I always try to advise checking the PCV valve, brake booster, and EGR. Those can be hidden vacuum leaks.

As for the idle RPM, 750 is not unreasonable for any EFI engine in PARK or NEUTRAL. If that's the idle RPM in DRIVE, that could be a problem. Check the VECI label under the hood or your service manual for the correct idle RPM in DRIVE, or in NEUTRAL for a manual trans car. 750 seems about right.

The higher RPM on initial start is also very normal, but that RPM should step downward as soon as the engine is running and the coolant begins to warm up. The target idle specified by the ECM is based on run time, coolant and air temperature, and the status of A/C and electric fans.

darkecho

ive spent about 6 bottles and 10 hours looking for vac leaks total haha, i checked the brake booster, couldnt find any leaks in the line, should i be looking somewhere else on it? also, when i pull off the hose when the car is off, the check valve sucks in a bunch of air, showing that the valve is working..

PCV was replaced, the EGR might be bad, when i manually push on the diaphragm it is rought and stuff, not very smooth movement at all, but when i pinch the EGR to TBI line the idle doesnt change, i am assuming that because it is plugged into the intake manifold, it can leak the other way also, meaning it could still be a vac leak even if there is no leak in the actual hoses that run from the TBI to the EGR... if that makes sense...

basicaly, it could still be leaking even if i pinch the line and the idle doesnt change..

um also i think the idle should be at about 600 rpm according to the manual, and its an Automatic tranny.

im going to try taking the car for a little drive to let the ecm relearn everything, maybe a code will pop up after a little drive...

darkecho

ok, reset the ECM and went for a test drive,

didnt throw any codes, seems nice and powerful. peeled out a good amount uh i duno, now i have a few second start up time, and a bit of a high idle...

whats the freakin deal here! now i have no codes, and nothing to go off of! haha... dangit...

i used that vac gauge i bought and got a steady 19 hg of vac, so i dont think i have a leak... what else is possibly the cause of the high idle? i have a feeling that maybe swapping my TBI out with another one might do the trick, one of my throttle blades seems to have a slight gap in front.. ill take some pictures and post them up in a minute, thanks guys!

Rob Wade

TPS is high should be .54-.56if my memory is correct. Can't help with the other #'s off the top of my head.

darkecho

thanks Rob but there arent any codes any more haha... i have a feeling that its just a vac leak... i plugged up the PCV and the idle on the tach dropped a little, when i plugged in the PCV the tach increased a little. maybe the pcv has a mis-rated spring or somthing, ill have to find my old one and see if it makes a difference...


i think im going to plug off the EGR, PCV, Canister, and Brake Booster lines and see if i can get the hard start to go away. maybe that would be a good test first... see if plugging the lines gives me a beter start, then unplug each one individually and start and see which one causes the hard start...

Rob Wade

Good to hear there aren't anymore codes BUT non the less your TPS should be set at .54 to .56 V for best performance. I would defenately make this setting correct. If you don't set the basics correctly it is hard to track any other problems properly. This setting being incorrect will not fire off a code.

darkecho

right, how do i set it? i have one of them TBIs, non adjustable TPS, i tried to adjust it lol... then i realized.. "gosh i must have a nonadjustable one!"

can i set it in winaldl or something somehow?

Rob Wade

Eeeuuuuwww. My bad. I just realized we're talking tbi. I would still believe it needs to be adjustable. Can't help you with the numbers though. Anyone??

darkecho

im going to get a few canisters of starterfluid and look for vac leaks again,

is starterfluid better than carb cleaner?

Vader

I'm thinking that it's at least a lot more flammable.

You might want to go back and cap the vacuum lines to try to isolate a problem. Removing the hose from teh brake booster and allowing it to suck air won't tell you if the booster is leaking internally.

darkecho

ok guys, i checked a few things out, first of all
1. TPS, range is from .71 to ~4.39 (it fluctuates depending on how quickly i move from closed to WOT on the linkage... if i slam it open, it might get to 4.41, if i slowly open it, it gets to 4.37)

im looking for the tps voltage for a TBI, not sure what it should be...


2. MAP

the values are 1.0-1.1 volts at warmed up idle (bout 750 rpms)
with a vac of 20.5-19.5 respectively. seems to line up ok with the chart i found, these are through the ALDL so there might be some "translation" errors...

I found that the IAC was clicking, but then found that this was normal... i am considering jumpering A and B and then unplugging the iac connector , un jumper the A-B, and starting the engine up and setting the minimum idle air, then turn off, plug back in, and see if it kept the idle.

the IAC connector is pretty shot as well...

also thought i would mention, there is what appears to be a coolant temp sensor on the pass side of the block that is dangling.. i found it when changing spark plugs a while ago, could this have anything to do with how long the engine stays in open loop? the coolant temp sensor on the intake manifold is still somewhat intact (broken connector a little) but this other sensor is just hanging...

atleast someone told me it was a coolant sensor... it has blue plastic on it if that helps

darkecho

Ok guys, I just adjusted the min air and heres how:

-Jumper A and B ALDL ports
-Turn ign to run
-Wait for pintle to extend fully from the IAC
-Remove IAC connector
-Remove jumper from A and B
*Disconnect the EST timing connector*
I heard this on a thread while searching, someone saying that you should do this as well as it has an effect on the idle, so i unplugged it
-connect ALDL Cable E and A for laptop readout of RPM
-turn screw till RPM is at 450-475
-turn off engine, plug back in IAC and EST

then i started it up again, it idled around 550-600RPM, not sure if its going to do this from now on (HOPE SO!) but it could have been because it was warm...

I think the engine portion of this car is complete!! I AM SO HAPPY!!! i drove 'him' (my friends have given him the affectionate name of Mr.****ty) and he felt so dang powerful! it seemed like it was just really strong... like peeling out all over the place it was great... huge smile for me thanks you guys SOOOO much for all the help along the way

I am still unsure as to whether the engine is in tip top shape or not... i would love it if someone had a test that i could do to completely rule out the possibility of a vacuum leak anywhere... ive heard that if i plug up the IAC air passage, that if the car continues to run, theres a vac leak... is this true? are there any other methods for me to try? THANKS SO MUCH!!

90Formula-X-F

All codes except 42 are more than likley disconnected sensor,relays and IAC that were unhooked with the Key on.

Code 42 sets when the EST connecter is unhooked during a basic timing check.

Earlier data shows A TPS at .71 but the engine temp is only 121 deg. It should'nt change throttle angle but besure your at operating temp before adjustments are made to most anything.

and lastly .... Most comon place for a TBI vacume leak would be a throttle body base gasket. May not detect with any chemicals. Only 3 bolts hold it down. Also take the oil cap off and spray some carb cleaner in the oil fill with the engine running. Look for engine speed increases. Intake gaskets can draw from inside the motor. Good luck

darkecho

Ok so I blew it once again, first didnt reset the ECM, now i realize that in the configuration menu on WinALDL, there is an ECM Type selector, apparently I was running a TPI ECM.

So Tonight I am going to go home and set it to the correct ECM Type (C3 1228746) for my 1990 305 TBI Camaro. Then I will monitor the idling specs again, the TPS voltage might change as well as other stuff.. we will see.

I am also going to do the IAC Adjustment per vaders instructions and adjust it to 400 RPMs in drive. Cant wait to see what happens with this tonight

Thank you guys so much, ALSO i am going to do what 90FormyXF said, that sounds like a cool idea, I didnt think about that. Thanks!

Ill update on the status, hopefully tonight will be the last night of engine work/tuning, then itll be off to other things!

Vader

On non-adjustable TPS systems (speed/density), the ECM "learns" the TPS base position when the ignition is first turned on. As long as the TPS voltage is at or below 0.90 VDC, the ECM will register the TPS position as "closed" on power up. Your's is just fine.

darkecho

i dont understand where you get all this knowledge, but thanks a lot vader I am going to reset the IAC per your instructions as well as set the timing tonight. then ill reset the ECM and go for a test drive. see if i can get any codes.

what should i set the timing to? i have heard that they go stock with 6* btdc but i currently am running 4* btdc

Thanks you guys! ill know tonight if there are any other issues

any suggestions on how to clean out my coolant? when removing the intake manifold i noticed that the inside is pretty reddish with rust... thanks!

Rob Wade

6* is stock. Myself I run mine at *8 with no problems. Run better gas in it though, like 91 octane.

darkecho

ok i adjusted the timing and IAC adjustment, everything seems to be lookin good right now! thanks so much you guys!

I dont really have any issues anymore, I would like to check the EGR at some point since when i push on the diaphram its very rough feeling.. that and i need to cut off some connectors from junkyard cars and solder them into mine ( my IAC, TPS, CTS, and several other connectors are cracked, breaking, or completely broken)

I would still like to test somehow to make sure i dont have a vacuum leak. Just for peace of mind.

I might re adjust the IAC once i decide on a specific timing, i advanced it to 8* with 91 but not sure i want to pay for more expensive gas.. and since i increased the timing from 0-8* after i adjusted the IAC and Min screw, the rpms might possibly go a little bit lower. oh well thats just a possibility.

THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP!!

Rob Wade

Those connectors are available brand new and inexpensive. You don't need to f--k with dried brittle plastic connectors. Try TPI parts, (a sponsor!) on ebay.

sqzbox

If your not getting a code 32, why would you want to mess with the EGR system?

darkecho

because the diaphram seems to be really rough, and a failing diaphram wont throw a code.. it could be leaking vacuum/letting a small amount of exhaust in when it isnt supposed to.. I just want to check it out thats all... not huge on my priority list at the moment however, i have a pretty major oil leak right near the oil pan and when i open the passenger side door the hazard lights flash.... so i have wiring issues too.. and i need to get various stuff on the interior replaced/fixed

sqzbox

Ok, IC. But a small vacuum leak will slow/ restrict operation not allowing exaust gas to enter into your in-coming air flow.
When you force the diaphram open, the engine RPM will drop and idle rough at idle speed. This means the passages are clear enough for proper operation. If you mean it's rough (the valve itself) it will feel that way when forced open from one side. If you force it open with a finger on both sides at the same time it should feel smooth. Try it without the engine running and see how it moves. If it still feels rough, get a new gasket, remove the valve, and try a little carb cleaner in the orfice and tap the valve on the bench. This usually results in a little carbon coming out and may smooth out the operation saving $'s over replacment.
If you want to check the valve for leaks, install a vacuum gauge with a T to a line from manifold vacuum and pull vacuum on the EGR valve, then pinch the line between the vacuum sorce and the gauge and see if the valve holds vacuum. It should hold between 10 and 15 in.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

0* timing is the correct setting for TBI motors IIRC.