Asdfga3

I had a blonde moment and forgot that the heads for the 305 and 350 are interchangable.

For some reason I pictured dropping the few K it would cost for a head/intake swap, and then buying a whole new 350, when he could actually just get a long-block.
Sorry about that.

vorgath

OK I won't even go there .. regarding the old old arguing where the result is .. one HAS to go with more cubes uhmmm


Regarding the 305 heads, not that much work really, for now I would just port them slightly, unshroud the valves, port the intake manifold slightly, port match intake and exhaust ports on the heads, make sure the intake ports are a between 80 and 100 grit wet finish, and exhaust ports polished as smooth as possible.

And hey ... for now ... yeah that would do, if not at least it would be fun


Yeah cam sucks .. isn't in reality the cam and the entire exhaust system more to blame than the heads AND cubes, when it comes to limited power in the LO3 ?

Zion

Yeah, i read up on the heads before this thread. So what heads should i be looking for? you said 'van style' so i can only assume they came on some TBI van.
This carberator thing is very new to me, and kinda cool. What would you guys suggest for the ultimate bang for my buck in a carbed intake? Also, i can literally just take a lt1 came and it would go in no problem?
If i did change the cam, computer settings would need to be changed, yes? Does this go for changing of heads or gears as well?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

may want to start a new thread, as this is getting big, and off the original topic... That would attract other members to help out too.


Heads, if you don't want to spend big $ on aftermarket heads, you can use some good factory ones:

416, 081, 601, i'm not sure which factory TBI van ones are...?
the guy in this thread may be selling one of these, worth looking into.

I'd recommend an Edelbrock performer RPM, tried tested and true. I'm not sure what adapter plate is needed or anything like that. perhaps ask in the TBI board?

SSC

Yes horrible. I could maybe give you $100 US for the car since it's an RS.


RPM intake and another larger engine would do the trick nicely. Of course you can build and save at the same time.

Zion

its just called a edelbrock performer RPM? how hard is the swap?

irocbirdbuilder

TO basically sum it up yes the lo3's arent that fast, but it works and with the right combo it can work very well, they are fairly well mannered street cars and can wipe down some competition, i have been in contact with sch racing heads out here and the owner is telling me just by some small pocket porting and valve work he can get 35-50 ft lbs out of the heads i am running and guess what for around 400 bucks for the pair...that aint bad, luckily he's got a set already done that the guy couldnt foot the bill on he's selling cheap....i'm going for em

LnealZ28

It helps me on these projects to define what I want the car to be, then figure out the best way to get there. On my '87 project, I made up a list of everything that needs to be done and as I get something done I mark it off. It helps to see it on paper sometimes. You really need focus if its gonna turn out the way you want it to. These 3rd gens are excellent platforms for just about anything you can want a car to be.

vorgath

Zion,

look at Fast355's specs on his van. He's using a 305, just slightly bored, to 312, using 305 heads from a TPI, ported. Some other little things here and there, but mainly tuning, and he's running some frightening numbers and I mean .. FRIGHTENING

Zion

frightening eh?


Thats a good idea, all the things in my head are starting to get bungled up, so i should actually right them down.
so, Z28 heads would work better?

vorgath

Z28 heads are 305 TPI heads

I'm sticking with 193's right now

MrDude_1

eh, i dont think more to blame works well in this case.. because even if you fix just that, it still sucks.

the main problems with the L03:

• TBI, while capable of more HP then the L03 makes, still sucks compared to other induction methods.
• the intake manifold....sucks
• the heads....suck
• the bore size....sucks
• the compression....sucks
• the exhaust....sucks
• the stock air filter intake box....sucks
• the cam....sucks
• the valvetrain overall, springs, valves, everything....sucks

from a performance perspective, there isnt much that doesnt suck about that motor... that doesnt mean it cant be improved... but if you have moderate to high goals, the entire thing needs to be replaced... well, you MIGHT be able to reuse the tins.....lol

Zion

could i get into the mid 14's with my l03?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, he's the only guy in history to get anywhere near, like within 20%, of the numbers he's claiming. I'd be REAL CAREFUL about taking his advice. Not that I'm saying he's lying, or that his numbers are impossible, or anything like that; just that, there's ALOT of people in the world building motors out of the same parts or better (like not using old stock cams that have been known for the last 30 years to be inferior, the way he is) and not getting ANYWHERE CLOSE to what he claims. I'd take every word he has to say, with at least a grain of salt; maybe 2 or 3 grains even.

"Slightly bored" = has had some maintenance performed; it is NOT a performance-oriented type of thing. It's still a 305, not some special size; it's just had about the thickness of a business card removed from the cylinder walls, to clean up and refresh them.

If you stick with 193 heads, you are shooting yourself in the shorts. If you take those heads off, DO NOT put them back on. and above all, DO NOT spend any money on them!!!! They are among the worst garbage there is. The heads you want for a 305 are the ones used on the carbed or TPI motors; 416 or 601 castings for perimeter-bolt applications, and 081 casting for center-bolt setups. They're essentially the same heads as far as performance. They can be found in F cars, G cars, B cars, trucks & vans EXCEPT FOR TBI ONES, etc.

Zion

ok, i bought a 87 TPI 305 longblock to replace the l03. That is what is in my car right now. I used the old tbi injection.
does this mean i have 416 heads?

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

No those should be 081s, pull the valve covers off and check out the numbers it's not to hard to do. If that's the case you've already got the hardest part of a decent 305 build up out of the way.

vorgath

How much would should I expect to pay for a set of 305 TPI heads anyway, at the junkyard ? What's a reasonable price ?

Zion

sweet! i changed the heads without realizing it!


Yeah, they are 083, centerbolt .

Ok, so what engine do i actually have then?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

you have a bastard-ization is what you have.

TPI '87 roller 305 short block
083 L98 350 TPI heads
L03 TBI injection


you sure you don't have the 350 TPI motor under those heads?

Zion

the guy i bought it from said that they were 083 centerbolt.
He's on this board 'Iroc22'
i assumed they were 305 heads.

SSC

Why? Just because it's a TPI engine doesent make it any better then the one you have. Ship it back and put the $$ towards real heads and exhaust. Right now you could gain proabaly 40hp just by getting headers and a 3in exh system. If your going to be doing anything like replacing the engine dont go below 350 cubes. Dont get me wrong a 305 can be made to run but it's just wrong to have good expectations from a small cube engine with VS issues.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Yes.

False. There is some great info on this site in regards to swirl port heads. Look up Fast355. He has produced 340hp and 450lb ft with ported 193's. Swirl port heads get a bad rap because people know nothing about them and resort to hearsay. There are a few guys who spend time and money to test this hearsay and so far all result prove it wrong. By the way, stock swirl ports outflow any TPI head on the exhaust side and only margonally on the intake side. You pick the lessor of two evils. Neither TBI or TPI heads are performance heads. Both can be made to work just fine for mild applications.

Refer to these threads.

Head flow data
We like these heads now
Garage ported 193's
Swirl port head discussion

No more than $100. If anything you should pay much less. The 416 head (LG4 and L69) is basically the same as the 081 head ('87 and later TPI) but is has provisions for center bolt valve covers.

Some '87 cars had a mix of 416, 081 and 187 heads. Some early TBI cars came with 416's and some late'92's came with 081's.

Zion

what would it take to get into the mid 14's considering i have the 87 tpi engine.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I don't think you need to be quoting that guy as some kind of guru; even if he is telling you, a TBI "partisan", what you want to hear. More people spouting the same fantasy doesn't bring it any closer to reality. Especially considering that his claims should be published in The Journal Of Irreproducible Results; since no one has ever, to my knowledge, been able to reproduce them, or has even come remotely close. Not saying he's lying or making them up or anything; but, I was educated in various scientific type disciplines, and the guiding principle in all forms of REAL research is, no matter how much of a breakthrough you have come up with, it has to be able to be duplicated by others. If it can't, then part of the task of "peer review" is to figure out where the unverifiable results came from. That's horse dung, right there. 87 was the first year of center-bolt valve covers; 416s use perimeter-bolt. With a possible exception of some VERY EARLY production slipping out the door with last year's motor, no 87s would have had early-model heads. Likewise for 187s on 87 cars. Those are TBI-specific, and the TBI 305 wasn't introduced until 88. If there's any one thing we can count on about mass production, it's that there's no such thing as "features from the future".

The 87 TPI 305, if it has an automatic transmission, needs a cam, and some gears, and an exhaust, and a converter; not necessarily in that order. If it's a stick shift, it might not need gears so bad; but it needs exhaust and cam.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

14's are for little girls. With headers (hedman 1 5/8), a catback, and speed density swap I got my buddies GTA (heavy 700R4 car) to high 13's with some solid tuning. When he said "I want more" I said "it's finished, now lets build a real motor."

If your goal is 14's then, well, re-evaluate your goal.

Personally I'm not a fan of E/T anyway, I think a high trap speed in the 1/4 is the coolest thing. But I've allready given you my advice up top on the car. You can play with head swaps and 305s as much as you like, if it's a learning experience for you. When your ready to build a hardcore street/strip combo we will be here to help. I've had my years of "learning", and I've found that the best thing to do is sell the stock junk (and it is) to the guys who would rather spend 80 hours in their basement porting 305 heads, and build a proven combo.

-- Joe

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Wow and you're a moderator? 14's is fast enough to outrun basically any non turbo import, stock mustangs, and ALOT of other cars. If that's your goal for now that's fine, plus it's a good starting point to teach you how to drive. Get the carb intake with adapter plate, headers, and 3in exhaust. This plus posi and gears should put you into the 14's without much hassle. After that you can look into doing a carb swap, getting a larger TBI unit, or changing over to a Tuned Port setup, then a stealth ram (considering you can get away with emmisions). I think people are just reading the head lines and then posting here, you may already have a 350, and you already have TPI heads, this mixed with your 5 speed gives you a good solid foundation for a fun street car without having to tear into the motor.

Zion

i want to play with my stock junk a little while longer so i dont f-up the 350 ill be putting in later...

and this was an auto tpi engine originally.

What is speed density?

also, im using tbi remember, so is the low mid 14's still achievable?

Lets say all i do is get headers, exhaust, delete cat, open element and a performer or similar intake (and adaptor). What am i looking at (1/4mile/hp), considering that i already have the 083 heads.

SSC, i did the engine swap last year, thats what i meant.
The engine is already in there.

Zion

1991CamaroRslow, i was to busy typing to see that you had posted!

You kinda answered my question, but i dont have a 350.
You think that even with all the things i listed, i would just breaking into the 14's? I was hoping atleast a 14.4 or .5


but what you all are saying is that i can get a carbed motor and just put on this adaptor and it will work? what about the sensors?
I r confused.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1991CamaroRslow
Wow and you're a moderator?
/quote]

Yeah, why?

If that's how you feel.

Who are you again? I don't think we've met. Welcome to thirdgen!

I've been doing this for a while, and I gave him some solid advice. He asked if the RS was a solid platform, I gave him the pros and cons from my experience. When people started suggesting he spend time on 305 heads and all that junk I said sure, if You're learning, but if you wan't to go fast we can chat later.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You have a LOT of options. Whats your goal with the car, and whats your budget?

Personally, I wouldn't spend any money upgrading your TBI setup, or on a carb, or on your 305. Why don't you invest money on components that you can re-use later on when you get a better engine? Or maybe in some tuning gear, so you can learn how to tune? Don't buy anything you won't wan't to reuse in the future.

-- Joe

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

seriously zion, start a new thread, more specific to the info you want, this is getting bloated here.

irocbirdbuilder

Although i do agree with what your saying, i'm going by the way of modding the 305, trying to get what i can out of it untill i build my motor, then i have a nice quick 305 to sell to a v6 guy looking to move up, believe it or not i actually already have people that have laid claim to mine when i do my swap, it'll have lots of bolt ons and a top end work, why not make some cash off it instead of shipping it to the bottom of some lake, where it rightfully belongs lol j/k its not that bad

Zion

what components do you suggest.
And what should the new thread be about?

I already have a laptop, the programs and im ordering that adl cable and burner.

how big of a job would it be to change the intake?


My budget just for the engine is around 3g's, but i might end up paying more i guess.
I just want it to help me get into the low 13's eventually. As for now, if i can get parts for the 305 that i can bolt onto the 350 later that can help me get into the mid 14's ill be happy.

SLEEPER 86

you might want to post the #s off the block (drivers side rear and pass.side front) so we can determine exactly what motor you have!
all this talk about 305's and 350's when no numbers have been looked up after an engine swap????????
my 2 cents ?
anything you put on a 305 can be transferred to a 350 as stated above.that's what i did.now go buy a holley 650 double pumper,lose all that electronic b/s(here it comes!) ,and stick it on a performer rpm.voila!step one complete!
you asked about how hard an intake swap was?if you've never done one it can be intimidating,get a haynes manual,a friend to be a second set of eyes,and a weekend to do it right the first time.next time it'll take a few hours tops! not too bad at all really,just label everything and put it back exactly where it was when you started.and ask us if you get stuck!but start a new thread for that,and the block #s question.my eyes are bleeding!
Eric B

Zion

Ill check the block later today when it gets light out.
I already have a haynes manual


Why cant i have the best of both worlds and just stick on a performer rpm


now for the next question.... anyone got a performer rpm for sale?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

mopac will sell you a performer RPM square bore for ~$207, I think, last I checked.

first, you want to keep the 305 short block right? then down the line, transfer stuff to a 350?

start a thread : 305, $3k, induction, suggestions?

or something along those lines.

or make a thread one at a time, to nail down your basics first. you'll need to know:

budget
intended use (street right?)
induction
going to be transferred to 350 later right?

and things like that. I'm on roughly the same budget, with a 350 bare block on a stand here. I'm going to be using a lunati voodoo 60103 cam, performer RPM spreadbore w/ q-jet, ported 416 heads, 1.6 roller tip rockers, hyper pistons and stock bottom end for the most part. I'm shooting for mid 300HP, and mid 13's (not that it'll see the dragstrip much).

Zion

thats WAAAAY cheaper then i thought!

should i use my same 081 heads but just get them ported?


edit: oh and the biggest thing i forgot to ask is, could i do this on my stock TBI injection? (mid 14s 305)

bluers91

I'd say do the Headers and exhaust first and foremost. Then do your intake and maybe a camshaft (LT1 used are around $30). You will need the intake and exhaust for the 350 down the road anyway.

Also, another thing not mentioned here. If your staying with TBI they make a TBI specific Performer intake along with a Holley TBI intake also.

Save your $$$ on heads for some 350 heads for down the road. 305 heads are smaller chambers 58cc which will bump the compression up too much on a 350 unless using dished pistons. Also, they have much smaller valves. Another thing when going to a 350 is you will need bigger injectors in your TBI or a stepped up Holley 670 CFM TBI unit and a new higher flowing fuel pump.

Zion

id rather not go as far as replacing the cam shaft on the 305.

Could i just keep it to,

Headers,
delete cat,
open element,
performer rpm,
timing?


what do you mean by holley intake?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

you have a roller cammed motor, get a cam, it's dirt cheap and you don't even need new lifters, or have to break it in. as recommended, an LT1 cam is cheap (not that cheap, but cheap).

yea, i'd recommend porting the 081s or 083s, whatever you have. (remember, if you have 350 heads, 083s, on a 305, your compression ratio will be lower....) this is getting specific, so that's why you'd want a new thread, this is getting so large, I can't even remember the beginnings...


get an electric die grinder from princess auto ($70), some carbide burrs from mcmaster carr, or acklands grainger, ($50) and make up a speed controller, ($30) and port'em up.

I personally wouldn't recommend keeping the TBI, i'd just use a carb, but that's just me. If you have no fear of chip tuning
a TBI motor, use that.

Asdfga3

Holley made a TBI performance intake awhile back. Search the Alternate Intake/FI forum for posts about it, or ask five7kid.

Zion

yeah ill do alot of the chip burning myself with help from others.

id have to change the computer a bit to compensate for the new cam, right?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I think so. FI and computers are not my forte. The TBI and DIY prom boards are your friends.

vorgath

Some people say even headers and new exhaust will mess up your stock PROM settings. Tune tune tune

Zion

from what i understand, it needs to be tuned from factory

vorgath

Yeah, I had planned on getting the whole tuning setup (chip burner, cable, adapter for the chips), before wife decided Christmas means buying gifts for everyone and causing 200 bucks in overdraft charges on my damn bank account


Looking at it, no offense to those who buy the online chips, but to me it seems like a real waste of money. You change a camshaft, which can maybe run ya 30-50 bucks if ya lucky, and all of a sudden that "custom" ordered chip is more or less worthless.


I also like the idea of the Moates switchable chip thingy, have one chip set for your driving, and another one for say smog check or valet parking or whatever.

Zion

or just use a laptop! and switch RT


are you serious about this camshaft thing? I could really pick up a lt1 cam that cheap and it would be the right one?

What other parts/seals do i need to change the cam?

vorgath

Uhmmm laptop ? I may be wrong, but I don't think once can just "switch" by using a laptop. Certain chips .. MAYBE .. but most chips have to be burned, physically pulled and installed.


OK, you know some folks get them for free too ? Baggy pants at junkyards are practical for several reasons.


The ultimate LT1 cam digest, good reading, I used this as a source when I had to change my leaking intake manifold gasket.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=262466

SLEEPER 86

if you decide to change the cam just get what fel-pro calls a "head kit" it will have all the gaskets you need.
i would also highly reccomend a new timing chain as well,my favorite personally being the cloyes "true roller".just remember there are three different ways to mount it,advanced 4*,straight up,and retarded 4*.straight up is just fine.read and follow the directions.
by the time you get the manifold off,all that is left to change the cam is to pull the water pump(another good thing to replace while you're there,timing cover,timing chain,timing gears(you'll need a puller,but they're cheap,and you'll use it over and over),lifters,and cam.
too bad you're in canada,i have a set of '601 heads you could practice porting on that i would give ya!i also have an rpm manifold(non vortec)i'd sell pretty cheap,it needs a water outlet heli-coiled(easy),but it is otherwise in perfect shape.do you have center bolt valve covers?i forget,and don't want to re read the whole post!if not,i also have a set of chromed tall chevy covers along with the T shaped hold downs,washers,and chrome spreaders that really make a stock engine 'pop'.all for sale cheap,P/M me!
looks like this post is gonna make it to 100 replys!LOL!
Eric B

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

A cam swap is cheaper on a roller motor, since you don't need to buy new lifters. However, $30-50 is a pipe dream, 'specially in canada. Unless you're really lucky. Cam, gaskets, timing chain, cam button perhaps... Looking at say $200 when the smoke clears i'd say. Probably want new valve springs too, valve seals.... Well, those are separate from the cam, and if you ported the heads you'd be doing these anyway.....

Anyway, $50 is a bit unrealistically cheap, however, it is easier/cheaper then with a flat tappet, and it'd probably still easily the most bang/buck upgrade YOU could do.