Zion

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=340403

for clarity, i have a 1991 RS and the body is in very good condition.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Any 3rd gen is a great platform to start from. It will accept one of 2974384658465 different small block combos and you can upgrade the suspension equally no matter what 3rd gen you buy. There was no 3rd gen that had a stronger "chassis" than another. I suggest you only refer to TGO for info on 3rd gens. Other sites are bogus compaired to this one. RS cars are cheap and readily available. You did fine.

Zion

finally something other then negativity.

Thanks shifty.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

RS is simply an option package,and yes,it's very much worth building.While I don't know the ins and outs of the option packages,I do know these cars are as interchangable as it gets.
Build your car how you want it,love it,and tell anyone that gets in your way to kiss off.

1991 RS/SS

I dont know what site told you that, but dont go back.

Spazz698

from what I was told the only difference between the 3rd gens was the suspension that was used for v8s and v6s. Then again, most people tend to upgrade the suspension if they do a swap esp considering the age so probably wouldnt matter.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

you must give us a link to this other website for a good laugh.

Zion

this is my thread from the other board.
http://www.vancouverfbody.com/forums...p?topic=8221.0

background information:

Im pretty new to the mechanical world, but ive got theory pretty down pat and ive done ALOT of work on my car.
A friend and I ('blake' on those boards) did the engine swap.
I have changed pretty much everything that bolts onto the car, including all the sensors and rad/fan.
Ive been reading up on everything to do with 3rd gen upgrading and swaps etc and i have my trusty hanes manual and a uncle that is a gm mechanic of 35 years on hand... and apparently i am not capable of building this engine myself.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ah, vancouver, you'll be spanking those r|cers in no time...

An RS would usually have lamer suspension from the factory, so if you wanted it to be as good as a Z-28 you'd have to buy better springs, shocks, etc. However if you had both a z-28 and/or an RS, and wanted EVEN BETTER handling, you'd be upgrading suspension on either to better then stock stuff anyway so....

Sometimes the RS's are better taken care of, and not rat bagged as badly by the PO's. Good luck with it.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

looks like you snapped on them over there... i'd keep that under wraps here if you want to get continued help...

I also didn't see anything about an RS being a bad platform... wrong thread?

If you want to keep it cheap, (like I am), and are going for roughly 350FWHP (same here), look into using your 305 heads on the 350, with some porting. I'd recommend a lunati 60103 cam, but if you want to stay with FI, then consider the COMP FI friendly equivalent... "268" I think... and of course porting your runners, or getting a stealth ram or something, but that brings up the $$$ a lot.

Look up sitting bulls thread, or anything written by F-bird'88 for more info on the head porting if you're interested.

I'm personally shooting to have the car done for under $6k (suspension, rear end, motor, etc.) I've got $1100 in the rear axle / suspension already.
oh, one last thing, check the canada board here.

92droptopws6

iTrader: (10)

bad platform NO
underpowered YES
should have NOT made sooo many engine options
but the 3rd gen is still the sexiest since 67-69 and can out corner any gen.

Stekman

"Bad" is in the eyes of the beholder. Anything can be made great with the right amount of money. A third gen can be made great with a relativly low amount, or, a lot, depending on your definition of "great."

MrDude_1

the RS itself is the same as the other camaro models.
obviously options and years come into play, but a good example would be my car.

my RS came with the F41 suspension package, a L03/700R4 and almost every option.

so basicly, my car is IDENTICAL to the Z28 in suspension, identical in drivetrain except for the engine itself.... it came with the 305 TBI engine.

so assuming you're going to upgrade the engine, the only diff between the two is the price you pay for it, the cost of insurance, and the badges on the car.

now on the earlier 3rdgens, there were some other small external diffs...

and if you dont get the F-41 suspension package, you would have to buy springs and swaybars to make it identical (shocks/struts dont matter because they're ALL worn).... but then again, 90% of all thirdgens need new springs anyway.. and if you're drag racing, the front swaybar size doesnt matter, you're taking it off anyway...


so when it comes down to it, it REALLY doesnt matter if you're using the car as a platform to build on.
if you intend to keep it dead stock, then it matters... but stock is slow anyway...regardless of Z28 or RS badging.

camaronewbie

Oh darn!! NOW I'm told their bad? Shucks! It would figure, since I now own 2 of them! What about all the fun I've had with them? What about all the $$$ I've poured into them? The labor? The blood, sweat, and tears?



Ask yourself this: Where else can a tightass weekend driveway mechanic (myself) get a $500 car that runs AND passes emissions inspection as is, has visual appeal, has a billion parts available for it (even on Sunday), and is infinitely upgradeable over time with little or no budget?

I give you ... the 3rd gen RS.

Zion

i knew there was nothing wrong with my car.

And i will definitly be upgrading the suspension.

The part where they call it a bad platform is somewhere in one of the pages.


Dont worry, you guys are actually helpful, no need to freak out.

LnealZ28

In fact, if I were going out looking for another 3rd gen to build, I'd probably look for an RS, no t-top and a stick. Wouldn't care what motor was in it. I'm changing everything on my '87 Z28 so it wouldn't have mattered what I started with I would end up with about the same car anyway. Like most of us it is what I had on hand so I went with it. Dig in and enjoy having a car that still looks like nothing else on the road.

irocbirdbuilder

i actaully prefer the rs platform to the Z28, yea the Z's are quicker and handle better but everyone associates the Z28 with being the fast camaro.....in my eyes and from experiance in colorado having a fast good looking rs gets alot of respect, especailly since the 91 Rs imo had the best looking lines with the spoiler it was just a great looking ride......I have heard alot of oh its just a rs befor ei added what i have now, always shuts em up when they're ride gets shut down

It is a great platform, welcome to rally sports just look at what i did with mine, its not associated with being underpowered or slow anymore

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

I have the hardtop RS that is an ugly twin of irocbirdbuilder's. I swapped in a TPI 350 from a 1987 WS6 Trans AM and the 9 bolt 3.27 geared rear. With the little stuff (bolt ons exhaust, sub frame connectors and a nitrous kit) this car is a BEAST. The RS suspension is a good compromise between the extremely light V6 suspension and the extremely stiff Z28 suspension, you're right in the middle and that's good. I'm assuming you're 305 TBI already so your motor mounts and such are a direct swap, and if you study up you can rewire your wiring to run a MAP style TPI setup. Don't be afraid of a nitrous kit and don't buy into guys telling you that you can get the same ammount of HP with a set of heads (never gonna happen unless you jet it like a weenie or get a steal on wicked heads, and cam). Good job on your car pick and don't let ***** guys get under your skin, just forge ahead and be smart, don't be afraid to make a few mistakes, it's part of the game, and oh yeah stick to this site for information you're where you need to be.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

wow TGO edits out the word **** with er added to the end... who knew

1991 RS/SS

All the "bad platform" talk is on page 3 of Zions link.

Zion

thanks guys!


that is one sick car iroc builder!

Spazz698

*** that is sexy.

Asdfga3

One of the best on the forums, IMO.

Anyway, RS models replaced the Sport Coupes, and they got a bad name mainly due to the fact that they came with either an LO3, or a V8. However assuming that you get a new suspension (or have the F41 RPO), and drop a 350 and better gears in there, you basically have the RS equivelant of an L98 IROC/Z28, except with somewhat of a sleeper aspect to it, since everyone expects you to have a TBI 305.

SLEEPER 86

dang zion,guess they are saying i should just throw my coupe away!
Eric B

crazy3rdgen

iTrader: (1)

I'm with irocbirdbuilder on this one. I have an iroc in my yard and I also have an rs. That freakin iroc gets more wows then my rs simply because it says iroc on the side of the doors. Which is crazy. So it looks like most people worship irocs and z28's and crown them king over rs's just because they were the most talked about. Well , I think i'm about to buy another rs, hard top, 5 speed with the 305. And you know what, i plan to change just about everything on the car but still keeping a stock apearance.. i'm referring to suspension , engine and drivetrain. I'm not fimiliar how well a 305 tbi is backed by a t5 but i bet it moves more then my 2.8 six. If you're looking for a great car to start from it being any thirdgen, I dont see why it matters. A good cond 3rd gen is a good cond 3rd gen. Rs=show people what they think is not possible, iroc/z28=people expect more from the car. I'm just not a fan of the mid to low 80's. we all have our preferences.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I think you're getting a lot of biased answers from both sides.

I'm a thirdgen owner, and i've owned about 6 drivers, and 25+ parts cars in the past 10 years. So I have a little experience with these cars, but still no expert.

The RS vs IROC vs GTA thing has it's merit, and you have to understnad where people are coming from. If you start off with an IROC or a GTA for example (or ws6 car), you'll generally have LESS to have to modify. Soe for example, if it was a port injected car you allready have the harness, ecm, etc, if it was ws6 you allready have the good suspension, 16" rims, if it's an iroc you have the wonder bar, and so on.

Can the RS achieve (and exceed) all that? Absolutely, it's just more labor and part intensive. My current car is a '91 bird, base model l03 car. I bought it because my formula twisted too much.

I paid $400 for the car, towed it home, and put it on the lift. In a long weekend I removed l03, 700R4, rear end, sway bars, brakes, fuel tank, exhaust. I then replaced it with all my ws6 and aftermarket stuff. Cut a hole for the tranny, repinned the harness to 1227749 specs, and then dropped in my 358 blower engine + t5 tranny. If it was allready a ws6 car I could have skipped a few steps, but I have a lift and a fully stocked garage so it's no sweat to me. TO some people, they want the most minimal investment of time and money possible to achieve the same thing, so they start with a better base car.

Get it now?

-- Joe

violentgod1

Im on my second and i love them. The only thing they say that might be weaker is the frame and chassis strength when you get a t-top or vert compared to a hardtop. The hardtop are suppose to hold up a little better. Correct me if im wrong.

Zion

i have access to the exact same amount of stuff (full hoist, air tools, etc).
violentgod1: yeah the ttops/verts are weaker, but im going to put in a half cage to make up for any weaknesses.


so anesthes, how is your t5 handling that amount of power? do you think it would stand up to 300whp?

i like the sleeper aspect of an RS as well.


the way i see it is, im replacing everything that makes a z28 different then an RS... so why does it matter? Plus, RS's are alot cheaper

Zion

also, irocbuilder, what did you do to your car engine wise?

Zion

hey, not to sound dumb or anything, but will HSR fit under the stock hood? or should i just get the SS hood?



edit: oops, posted 3 times

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've been saying this for years. It's not the T5's, its the 16 year old drivers who can't drive stick.

Add heck, I know guys in their 30s who still can't drive stick (but think they are race car drivers).

In, well, jeez a LONG time now, i've only broke one T5, and it was when I was being a moron.

I've ran hundreds of passes over the years, 110-119mph on T5. No problems.

-- Joe

Zion

really... what do you think it is that is killing them?
Also, any tips on strengthening them to handle a little more abuse?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

If the tranny grinds at shift, it's not the tranny, it's the driver.

If it grinds while racing, it breaks. It's about coordination.

A lot of guys say "3rd gear is the weakest". No, it's just that third happens to be a weird movement because of your body mechanics, so a lot of guys clutch at the wrong time and grind third - and explode third at the track.

I don't care if your motor is 50hp or 500hp, if you put full load on the TIP of the tooth it's gonna break.


-- Joe

Zion

i notice that about third gear, but its only really early in the morning when im sleepy and very rarely.

what about stickies/slicks?

vorgath

Paint the headlight buckets satin black and it looks like an Iroc wannabe now I just have to put the highbeams back in and align the lights


Nothing wrong with a RS.

Actually I went with the RS for a reason, wanted the 305 for slightly slightly better fuel economy, and also prefered TBI since it has less expensive parts than the TPI (such as MAF and more injectors), plus .. it's about being different

irocbirdbuilder

I am running 14x4" open element, catco cat, 3" exhaust with no muffler, msd helicore wires, blaster coil, accel cap and rotor, accel module, 185* stat, hypertech fan switch, 165 amp alt, ported tbi, injector spacer...basically slight bolt-ons, you;ll here guys talking about tuning and getting super indepth with what works and dyno numbers and whatnot over on the tbi board, i'm not saying they are wrong, however i have found this combo to be working out well, ton faster than stock and i have run a few other 91 rs's bone stock and walked all over em, imports are no problems, and most stangs see tails, i am adding headers, manifold and cam along with a 3.xx rear(havent decided on gears yet) with a auburn pro unit and ditching the stock 2.73's

You can talk horsepower till your blue in the face, the lo3 are torque motors, mine has brutal low end even with the ****ty gearing, i was brought up torque is what its all about, thats whats gonna win races

Zion

you tried the quarter mile yet?

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

lol , i was afraid to say it.
thanks zion.

irocbirdbuilder

I never got a chance to run it this last season, everytime i was planning too something came up, and the last month or so the test and tunes were all rained out, buddy of mine was trying to get me to run the et street series but i decided last minute not too because 1. it requires a muffler and it would have interfered with show season and 2. if i start breaking stuff i didnt have the cash to be fixing rear ends and what not on a weekly basis, i might take it out for the series this year though, seems like alot of fun what i seen, and a decent payout at the end

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

So you're l03 has more torque than my car?

If you like your l03, thats fine. But you don't need to justify it with some lame torque argument. I don't think theres a need to justify anything you like about your car, its all personal taste like it should be.

-- Joe

irocbirdbuilder

I'm not saying its got more torque than your or other cars, but lo3's were torquey motors, thats what the swirl port heads were for was torque, hence why they put em in the silverados, towing power and what not

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

When my car was still L03 it outran both of the local L03 Camaros by several car lengths with 2 plug wires crossfiring! These motors are hit or miss. The biggest bang for the buck mod I did to mine was advance the timing and make my own adjustable fuel pressure regulator, both of these were free. Go ahead and take it to the track man you won't break your rear with an L03 and a 700r4; my 2.73 rear had over 200,000 miles (as did my motor!) and it looks perfect inside, L03's just don't have what it takes to gut those rears unless you do something crazy like a neutral drop. Zion if you're interested in getting your L03 to run fast, you should swap the heads, buy a decent carbeurator intake, and the adapter for the TBI to go on it. Once this is done get a posi rear with steep gears and the car will be surprisingly quick with your T5. I have a set of 305 heads that had factory 1.94 1.50 valves, I'll check the castings and see if they're worth a crap (they are center bolt) and if you're interested I'll sell them to you cheap though shipping may be pretty bad. Good luck with your car, I drove mine tonight and I tell you this I love that car more everytime I drive it.

Zion

yeah im interested, find out what it would cost

whats this about a carbourator intake? Im fuel injected...

also, when it comes to gear ratio, i have no idea what numbers are better and what arent. Id assume a lower gear would be steeper, butim probably wrong

Asdfga3

1) That can change, assuming you live outside of Caly.

2) Gears are rated for input/output. Output is always at a ratio of one, so you're looking at the first number. Your car would probably have a 2.73, or 3.23 rear end.

By "steep" Rslow means a numericly higher gear, probably somwhere around 3.45 or 3.73 or something. This will give you a better launch, but will cause you to peak out sooner, and run a higher RPM while cruising.

90CamaroTBI

You also gotta think that if your t-5 grinds like mine, it aint cause you dont know how to drive, its because your syncros are shot from 175000 miles of powershifting.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

zion, throttle body fuel injection (TBI) is one of the few FI systems that uses a wet intake manifold, rather then port injection. Therefore it uses the same type of intake manifold as a carbed car, so you have a really good selection of quality intake manifolds at your disposal.

Not sure if you know a lot about TBI yet Zion, but the swirl port heads are renowned for being junk. (yikes, i'm just the messenger!), hence why you're being offered other heads..

vorgath

Although since you have the stock 193 swirl port heads, go to the TBI tech board on this forum, and look around for posts about porting the stock heads. Some people have proven they're not as bad as originally claimed.

Asdfga3

Mmm.... I wouldn't necisarilly suggest that much engine work. He's got a 305, so no matter what he does to his heads, intake, or any part of that engine, he's still severly limited by his cubes.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Yes by steeper (lower) I mean numerically higher think of it this way when someone says there car is "high" geared think highway. High gears are numerically lower, your car will probably have a 2.73 or a 3.08 gearing. You want to go with a lower gearing (numerically higher) like a 3.42 or 3.73, I wouldn't go much steeper than that. With lower gears your car will multiply its torque better, but will go slower in each gear. So 5500rpm in first with 2.73s will no longer be 40mph with 3.73s it will be closer to 35mph. This will affect highway driving but this isn't nearly as severe as some people play it out to be. I went from 2.73's to 3.27's and my car revs about 300rpm higher cruising 60mph and the trade off was WELL worth it. As for your head castings, the swirl port head's aren't that bad, but the TBI heads are a particularly bad swirl port design. There's a large restriction in the intake port that you can't get out of them. Most of the guys on the TBI forum are using the old van style non center bolt swirl ports on there vehicles. As for your intake, someone already pointed out that it's a wet style intake just like a carb intake. This allows you to run a carbeurator intake with an adapter plate. As for being limited by cubes, that's relevant to nothing. If you have a 305 go ahead and build it, when it goes bad there's no point in rebuilding it just step up to the 350 world and swap your equipment over. The 350 will make more power than the 305 but so will a 327, or a 383, or a 400, or a 406, as you see it gets kind of pointless because you don't have one of these in your car nor do you have a real need for them at the moment. Swapping blocks is probably the least economical power adder when most everything you can put on the block you have will interchange later.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Also note that that TBI cap is a **** STICK! It is the lowest lift shortest duration cam I've ever seen, you need to step it up to an LT1 cam or similar. I wouldn't go spending big money on an aftermarket cam I would just find a take out LT1 or L98 cam (yours is a roller you will need a roller style cam).

(Edited by mod - read the rules, by-passing the Board censor is not allowed.)