Apeiron

Mopac

You're best off measuring the crank before ordering bearings.

CamarosRUS

BTW...this is debatable but I use this method...

To turn the crank, you can space out the balancer bolt with washers and large nuts (assuming the balancer is off) and with all the plugs out the crank turns easily.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

hmm, would it be possible that I lost a few thou on the crank, but it still looks smooth? I figured it'd be pitted or grooved if it got worn.

I wasn't planning on making a trip to the machinist at all. I can't really get my motor there, the use of a truck is basically nil now, and this car is my only driver. I was hoping to re-do the bearings with the pistons in the motor. Ie, heads never being removed.

What about plastigauging the current bearings, to see if my clearances are ok, then just get bearings of the same size?

I was hoping to re-bearing it and go... I know it's not ideal, not washing the motor completely but...

I can drop by mopac tommorow AM, taking the day off work to go camping...Then again, I was planning on getting the bearings from summit. Summit brand prices are hard to beat.

CamarosRUS

Well Plastigauge is the absolute minimum I'd do. Its not all that great for accuracy but better than nothing. If you can clean the crank journals and can't see any scratches, scrapes, color change then you are probably okay. People build motors without following the proper procedures all the time and I'm sure many turn out okay. It would be better to mic the journals but I'm sure you don't have access to the tools do you?

You probably need new cam bearings too but that would mean a machine shop trip. I'd just hate to see you get it all back together only to have a bearing spin.
There are a ton of things that need be checked but make sure you clean it out extremly well. When you pull it for the bearings pull out every single plug and clean through each passage with a rifle cleaning brush.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

yea, cam bearings is the main reason the motor is coming out. Other then that, i'll turn it upside down and do all the other bearings with the rotating assembly in place. That's the plan at least....

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

hey sonix, the cam that f-bird 88 suggested is the same cam i've got and it makes some insane power for what it is. it's super streetable and it really is a nice cam. you don't need ot worry about getting the valvetrain setup for it, just run it. the valve springs i'm running are the comp 981-16 springs and i've not had any problems.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I figured it was.
That's not really an option for me anymore, I've got the xe268 and hydraulic lifters now.
Now i'm just concerned about getting it running this summer....

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

for something as catastrophic as this to happen to your motor it would very unwise to leave the heads on while doing this. It would be in your best interest to pull the pistons and the rods out because i am sure you have leftover debris nudges in there somewhere. with shards of metal going through your oil pump, and all...
The more surface you inspect the more peace of mind you have. That all the what if's out of the equation my friend, and make them I did's.

mnorton

What's the cost of doing it right the second time, as compared to doing it right the third time? Maybe the engine will just get better each time!

Triple Balanced and Blue Printed!

I've been told that typically those who are the best, are those who have failed the most times....

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I endevor to top that list then
You guys are looking at this from an outside point of view as if I have a choice. I have no other mode of transportation, I work 20 miles from my house, and currently I carpool with someone who is quitting in 2 weeks. I get the use of an engine stand in one week.


I don't really have a lot of time to get myself a moving vehicle. I guess I can remove the rotating assy, not a huge deal, just need to buy new head gaskets I suppose.

CamarosRUS

Yes, besides the cost it won't take hardly any longer.

Are you planning on putting in the cam bearings yourself?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

yea, i'm going to have to. I'll buy the tool from summit, along with the bearings and whatnot.
I can't get the motor to the machine shop to get them to do it for me.

I think i'll remove and put back in my old ones a few times to get the hang of it first.

Apeiron

Which cam bearing tool are you getting?

Get a set of engine brushes while you're at it.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ape, I appreciate the help, i'm about to place the order now, so if you have any advice on stuff to tack on the order, now's the time.

tool is
SUM-900130

cam bearings are
SUM-173000

mains
SUM-172010

rods
SUM-171010

freeze plug set
SLP-381-8007

crank socket
SUM-G1063

then, i've got a mr gasket, gasket set
MRG-7100
same $26 as I paid for the summit brand gasket set. For any head gasket in the "normal" range, .039-.041" thick, 4.166" bore, it's >$30 per. So $60 total. Local price is the same. So just looking at summit, I can get the whole set for less then one head gasket... WTF??? I'm gonna go for it, since I need to replace the head gaskets anyway. I might also be able to return my timing cover and intake gaskets that I bought last week, since i'm getting a new kit...

brushes
SUM-G1176

i'll grab some some of that assembly lube 105 stuff for the bearings. (local buy)

Apeiron

The cam bearing tool will work ok.

You don't necessarily need a whole freeze plug set, just the rear cam plug and the oil galley plugs. Doesn't really matter, though.

I'd still be a little leary of ordering bearings before checking out the crank.

Supervisor42

And to think you were going to replace the cam & lifters, change the oil and spin on another filter...I think we're a bad influence on you. Be sure to get a picture of what's in the bottom of the oil pan.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I know, it's not a good thing, but i'm kinda screwed if I do, screwed if I don't. If I wait until I inspect the crank, summit parts are 7+ business days out.
Which puts me at not getting to work without a car.

Or I can buy them locally for a 200% markup or more. I know Rod wanted $50 for main bearings and $50 for rods, IIRC. I *think* the crank will be ok to use as is. Worst case is I need it turned down again, and I buy the bearings locally, and return the summit parts.

Or for that matter, turning the crank was $120, I could probably buy a stock crank that's been turned down to .010/.010 from his stash, and just leave him mine... That way I could use the bearings I have. Balance will be about the same as before- less than ideal.

DCC-4286819 plastigauge set has been added. Think of anything else? I'll pull the trigger here if it sounds....'good'.

mnorton

Is there a small cylinder hone that you could use in the lifter bores? I'd hate to hear that a new lifter failed to rotate because the bore was too tight....

Supervisor42

I wish to respectfully disagree. Lifters that are concave due to a lobe failing will not rotate. The lifter bores are the only part of a SBC block that cannot be "fixed" economically. Machine, grind or rebore any part but leave the lifter bores alone. If it is a "used" block the lifter bores cannot be too tight.

CamarosRUS

What about if they are slightly rusty?

Supervisor42

Use WD-40 and middle finger. If they won't fit after that they're too rusty. The oil gallery runs thru them and they have to hold pressure. If you hone them they will leak and you will have an engine with low pressure at idle when hot. Besides the only hones that will fit that small of a hole, in the real world, turn out to be a piece of dowel rod with 320 grit paper.

Apeiron

Honing the lifter bores to clean them up is acceptable, as long as a minimum of material is removed. That's why they make hones specifically for the job. Brake cylinder hones work too.

CamarosRUS

Yea, I've heard about the wheel cylinder hones. What should the clearance be?

Apeiron

Small.

mnorton

I read somewhere on this site that lifters need to rotate or they will wear out... Maybe that is for soild lifters? I don't know, mine are rollers so it's a non-issue for me.

I just thought that since Sonix said that he had to pull some of the lifters out with vice-grips, that the bores sounded a little too tight, or perhaps were damaged a bit as he pulled the old lifters out.

Apeiron

All flat lifters need to rotate, regardless of whether they're hydraulic or solid.

He had to pull them out with vice-grips because the sharp edges on a concaved lifter flare out at the bottom, not necessarily because the bores were damaged.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

k, update.

Finally got the motor out tonight. Still waiting on summit parts. Sometime next week hopefully.

I've pulled all the main caps. Every bearing seems scratched. Like a TINY bit of sand or dirt or something got in there. The journals seem ok though.. That 'cuz it's harder material, and would take longer to damage? I'm hoping so.

I'm hoping to analyze failure here (assuming it wasn't purely from the cam material, as i've heard of others wiping flat tappet cams and putting a new one in and driving away...).... Perhaps from it not being a religiously clean shortblock while I assembled it?

I checked this plug , and it's there.

I'm going to ruin my nice clean driveway whilst cleaning this motor. I think I can kiss my damage deposit goodbye

anyway, plan is to remove the heads and check the cylinders. Then remove all the rod caps, and remove the crank, then remove the pistons and whatnot, from the top. Or should I remove pistons/rods before the crank? I forget how I did this before...

thanks

Apeiron

Less chance of getting the caps mixed up if you remove the pistons and rods before the crank.

Jer82Z28

[QUOTE=Apeiron]This isn't from his engine, but I'm guessing they look a lot like this.

thats better than looking like this :P

and you want to talk about metal in the engine

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

what would cause that Jer??

Saigon_Bob

iTrader: (2)

pressure wash the driveway.... but anyways.... i wouldnt risk the motor for laziness... you are doing the right thing

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

k, down to shortblock now.

All piston crowns are black. I guess I was running rich...? Maybe not enough spark? Except piston #4, that's the one that had both intake and exhaust go flat.. That was a lighter black, not as charred.

All bearings are bad, but all journals look good!

Do I need to remove all the oil plugs in the block? the front small 3 were staked in place, so i'm not sure how i'm gonna get those out..? I removed my freeze plugs, and i'm not totally sure why I did that now..? But i'm having a tough time getting the back 2 out... They don't drop as far in, so it's trickier. Anyone know a secret to make that easy?

I'm trying to figure out where my oil leak was from, so when I re-assemble it I can avoid it. I think it may have been RMS, or a rear galley plug. The RMS, the "sweep" points....forward?

Last time I assembled this motor, I just trusted the machinist who had hottanked it, and ran it through the sprayer thingy (?). Now i'm going to clean this in my driveway here, since I can't bring it to a coin op wash, or the machine shop. I was thinking of just soaking it in engine degreaser and or simple green. Then filling up a bucket with liquid dish soap and hot water, and scrub the block with a nylon bristle brush. That and my engine pipecleaner brushes. That sound ok? Then wipe it down with a clean rag (no compressed air available), and mist it with wd-40?

Thanks.

Apeiron

It sounds like the soft bearing material did its job and let the particles embed into it to save the journals.

Use a long metal rod through the oil galleys from the back to drive out the front plugs. You might want to tap them for pipe plugs so you don't have to deal with it again.

The coolant plugs could have stayed in. If the back ones don't want to come out, you could try puching a hole into them and use a sheet metal screw and slide hammer.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

nice! learn something new everyday. Well guess I won this round, only bearings needed...

the big plug behind the rear cam bearing I knocked out from the front. I used a long wooden rod. The 3 above that rear plug are already pipe plugs. Is that stock or did my machinist do that?

You mean for the 3 little ones? Do I run a metal rod from the rear plugs towards the front ones to bang them out? Like a long piece of 3/8" drill rod or something?

I guess I could use a dremel, and remove the staked metal that's holding it in place. I'll tap those for sure, 1/8" NPT?

Thanks

CamarosRUS

1/4 NPT. IIRC the rear plugs are threaded from the factory.

Clean until you can eat off of it (get into all passages with rifle cleaning brushes or pipe cleaners), rinse very well, dry off with lint free towels mist w/wd-40. Assemble

Apeiron

That's stock.

Something like that

1/4 NPT. It's not necessary, but some people also drill about a .030" hole in one or two of the plugs afterwards to spray oil onto the timing set.

mnorton

Run a tap through all the head bolt threads too!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

done, and done.
Had to drill out my rear plugs, 7/16", so now i'm going to re-tap those for pipe taps, and try to tap the front holes too.

Do I need to re-hone my cylinders? I can still see a cross hatch around most of the bore, but on the "thrust side", it's pretty smooth. I think the rings would be good to use still though eh?

Still waiting on my summit parts, gotta love the postal system... Boy, I sure hope I have it for the long weekend.. d'argh!

Apeiron

Should probably re-hone and re-ring.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

not what I wanted to hear
what about a hone and a re-use-the-rings? I mean, 1000miles on the rings right?
preferred hone style? ball ok, with diesel to lube it? I did that once upon a time long long ago...

mnorton

Since you've already pulled the pistons you should probably re-hone and re-ring. I think that anytime you pull a piston the rings rotate a bit and thus need to re-seat.

I've never used a ball type hone, I'd think that it would not give the proper cross-hatch pattern. I supposed that you could re-use the old rings, but they would have a little more wear on them after breaking in twice.

Apeiron

A ball hone is supposed to be pretty forgiving. I've never tried one so I don't know.

Rings are cheap, I wouldn't bother reusing them. You'd burn through more money putting oil into it until they reseated than you'd save.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

local napa for rings? would a generic parts store have these with moly facing?

ball hone it is.

sigh, man, two engine builds is pretty hard on the wallet at the end of the day.

mnorton

Pretty hard on the hands too I'd bet....

Hang in there. It will get better!

Apeiron

If I can get them next day in Salmon Arm, I don't know why you couldn't get them off the shelf in Calgary.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

you would think so wouldn't you?

aparrently Chevy 350 motor parts are like $3 bills. I thought D&W was ripping me off at $90 for a set of engine tech moly faced rings... Town & Country can get me a set for $103. C-tire has nothing. Waiting for a call back from napa, none in stock anywhere, they all have to call their warehouse.

Since I have no other car, i'm hoping a local shop has them, so I don't have to take the bus or some crap to get them...

i'll call some more places.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

ball style hones run $130-$270, but the 3 stone style one was only $50, so I got that one.

Apeiron

What grit are you going to use on the hone?

I think the last time I bought cast iron rings they were about $65 or so. Sealed Power E-251K moly rings are about $90 or so usually.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

came with 240grit stones, I can get 120 or 400 I think.
I was going to use the 240grit, the writeup on the box leaves me to believe that's what I want.

hmm, $90 for that... And summit has them for $32, it breaks my heart.
I'm going to try it with these, try and seat 'em well.

Supervisor42

Now you can see why I go postal when someone says their new cam rounded off a couple of lobes and I say we deserve better. Kinda like the connecting rod with a "lifetime guarantee". Sure, (insert lame parts store name here) will give you another rod, for FREE..... all you have to pay for is the block, crank, cam, oil pan, a piston and 3 days worth of labor.
So what are your plans for your next cam & lifters? And I'm not talking about break-in procedure.