LsxMatt

iTrader: (4)

I have the timing light connected to the number one wire, closest to the plug. When i got home tonight i pulled the number one plug and got it to TDC compression stroke, with the balancer on 0. Pulled the cap and the rotor was pointing right on the number one terminal. The car doesn't want to start this way though, have to retard it to about 16 degrees BTDC to get it to start and idle. Even then its really down on power. Once the balancer mark is retarded back to 12 o clock on the timing cover, I runs great and i get the most power. Still have absolutely no idea where the timing exactly is though.

LsxMatt

iTrader: (4)

Staten island NY, also doesnt knock or ping at all. I am running 93 though.

FRMULA88

if you are on #1 spark plug wire & have 10 degress on the timing tab and the dial on the timing light says 43.. this means you have 33 degrees of timing.

not having a fully degrees balancer makes this a pia... if it was you can set the dial on the light to "0" and see what the actual timing is set at.

is may be that total timing is "locking out" on the dist to 33 degrees.. read the instructions for the dist..

this may explain trying to adjust the dist kills the engine.. you are chasing your tail until you know what your base timing actually is.

JaBoT

Sent you a pm

FRMULA88

http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=5679


try this, instructions are pdf at bottom of this link..

it explains how to adjust the mechanical timing & lock it out.

note on MSD dist.. you need at least 15" of vacuum for the vacuum advance to function it that is also explained in the documentation.

This is why I told Jabot you probably won't get much use for this with a cam making only 13" of vacuum.

Did you but this part new or second hand?

what dist are you actually using? the basic concept is the same.

good luck and keep us posted.

LsxMatt

iTrader: (4)

Im using this distributer-http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850205

Vacuum at idle is around 13, but it raises to about 20 when raising the rpm.

JaBoT

You do not need at least 15 inches of vacuum to make the vacuum advance work. You need 15 inches to get the full 10 degrees of vacuum advance!!
I don't know what is so hard to understand and why you keep arguing this.
At 13 inches of idle vacuum you will still have around 7 or 8 more degrees of timing from the vacuum can at idle. Which in turn will raise the vacuum at idle from having the extra timing. Which makes a smoother idling engine.

JaBoT

For a base setting for that distributor I would run the black bushing and the 2 blue springs. So if your set for 36 degrees total you will have around 18 degrees at idle without the vacuum can

FRMULA88

OK same concept as the MSD.

looking at the timing charts for the summit part I don't see how you can have that much timing in it at idle. did you play with the advance springs etc. at all?

leads me to believe the dist or cam are not installed correctly, if that is incorrect

try another timing light or that dist. is defective.

another reason why I don't buy summit brand parts.

not that is matters are you using the correct coil? per their instructions?

vacuum will raise to a certain point, if you are seeing 20" go ahead and try the vacuum advance but I would not worry about that yet. You need to get the initial and total mech timing correct first

FRMULA88

when you seat the dist at TDC, the rotor should NOT move much from #1 position.

You may have to adjust the oil pump drive to get the dist base to seat without moving the rotor, if the rotor moves when you are seating the dist that can throw off the timing. Install the dist with the cap off to make sure.

read your summit instructions.


if the cam and or timing chain was installed wrong, you will never get the timing right.

LsxMatt

iTrader: (4)

Im using an msd blaster 3 coil, which has the .700 resistance required by the distributer. As far as the vacuum advance, how would that affect the base timing? Advance is disconnected anyway when setting base timing with the light.

Like i said, the car runs great, doesnt stumble or misfire. Can take it up to 6k without skipping a beat. The power seems to be there. Dont think the advance is the issue.

FRMULA88

so what's the problem? oh right you can't read or adjust the timing. so there is an issue.



just to be clear on a SBC #1 piston is on driver's side at the front of the engine.

drivers side is odd bank 1 3 5 7 front to back

pass side is even bank 2 4 6 8 front to back

front means the front of the car

firing order: 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 clockwise rotation on dist.

see attached..

FRMULA88

see attached

I am concerned when you say five o clock posistion for Number one position of the rotor..
that depends on where you are standing in relation to the dist

this is the correct SBC orientation (by convention)

if you installed the dist with rotor for #1 in a different postion then you check timing using #1 spark plug wire your readings will be way off..

#1 is actually at 8:30 positon viewed from driver's side... 5:30 viewed from front of engine.

best way to remember this when at #1 is at TDC and the dist is installed correctly,the rotor should point towards #1cylinder (spark plug).. and aling with #1 terminal on the dist cap. this will get you very close, start the car it should start no issues if it's close.. then just rotate the dist until you can calibrate "0" on the pointer with the timing light with the dial set on the "base timing number" you are looking for. want 12 degree base set the light to 12 etc...

then do the same for total mech timing. rev up the engine and adjust the dial till you see "0" on the balancer. your dail may be 30 32 34 i dont know, that depends on the curve you have in it and how much you advance the dist. to make up the difference.

LsxMatt

iTrader: (4)

Just had a thought... Would too little end play in the cam cause an issue like this? I had a friend install the cam button, as i never done it before. When it comes to the distributer, its very difficult to get it lined up to drop it in. Not only the oil pump shaft, but it almost feels like the cam doesn't have enough forward movement when sliding the distributer in. Sort of binds going in, doesn't just glide into the cam teeth like other distributers i have done, almost have to force it in. Just laying in bed and had that thought. Ill pull the timing cover if i have to.. Really want to fix this.

FRMULA88

I slept on your topic ...

if you have a cheap timing cover the cam can actually "walk" (push forward) on you because the timing cover is so flimsy the sheet metal deforms.

you can check for cam walk by looking between the water pump and timing cover... there should be a gap between the two, if the timing cover is up against the water pump, your cam pushed forward on you.


but something else to consider: if you are using a stock balancer it may not have been installed with #1 @ TDC and with the "0" line of the balancer aligned with "0" mark on the timing tab.

If that is the case get #1 back to TDC and make your own "0" mark on the balancer with white out, a paint marker, or a silver sharpie.

if everything else is where it should be then you can see with the timing light **** set to "0" where your painted on "0" mark falls on the timing tab

I bet this get's you where you need to be..

if none of this helps I would think the cam was not degreed correctly when installed, if you assembled this yourself you need to check that, if a shop did this you need to let them know you have an issue with the timing.

LsxMatt

iTrader: (4)

Im using a cast aluminum timing cover, so cam walk shouldn be an issue. Also the timing mark is very stable at idle, and with rpm, so i dont think its moving. The way the balancer mark runs great at 12 o clock, almost seems like i need a 12 o clock timing pointer. This would make perfet sense, aside from the fact that number one TDC, lines up perfectly with the 0 on the two o clock balancer. Think the next step would be to try another timing light. If this doesnt work im going to pull the timing cover and have another look at the cam timing. Front lower timing seal is leaking a little oil anyway, so i want to fix that.

FRMULA88

I think you just answered your own question... put #1 at TDC & make your own "0" mark on the balancer. Just draw a line across the balancer that aligns with "0" on your timing tab when #1 is at TDC.

I have a feeling your balancer was installed wrong, so make your own "0" mark.
Then you can see where your mark is in relation to the timing tab when checking the initial and total timing.

I think this will help.

JaBoT

He clearly stated numerous times that he found tdc using a piston stop and the balancer mark and 0 on the tab line up perfectly.
Btw how do you install a balancer wrong so that the timing marks don't line up. It has a keyway and can only go on one way.

FRMULA88

Correct and just because the timing marks line-up does not mean anything;

because the cam can be installed straight-up, advanced, or retarded. if the cam is not installed straight up the mark on the balancer means nothing.

the dist can be installed wrong or

OP has no idea how to use a timing light.

NO offence OP but Frankly I am tired of this bs from Jabot and trying to explain myself over the internet.

you guys are neighbors so to speak, so Jabot should take his know it all self to your place and just show you.


Good luck !

FRMULA88

for what it's worth a fully degreed balancer like an ATI unit
and needle style indicator would eliminate alot of your headaches.

then you can leave the timing light at "0" and see what your actual values are.
but you do whatever you like.

obviously I don't know what I am talking about or doing...

JaBoT

No one is right all the time, but when you keep saying things that are technically not true I am going to say something. It has nothing to do with you personally. It has to do with the op and everyone else reading this and getting the correct information.

FRMULA88

That is fine & good & technically you are correct, but I tend to do things by convention so then it is easy to troubleshoot.

If you are installing the dist with #1 piston @ TDC, then you have to install ithe dist. correctly using the conventional diagram & firing order, with the rotor in the correct location to get it right.

You can't just stab it in with the rotor facing any position with #1 piston at TDC, because the timing readings will be off..

I don't know how else to explain this. I said the dist. can be installed wrong because it in fact can be done as described above as it relates to being able to read the timing correctly at the balancer.

if OP can't install the dist. correctly how do you expect him to make accurate timing readings? for all I know he set the "0" mark on #6 TDC instead of #1..

Just read the darn instructions than came with the summit dist.. it's all explained in black & white.

FRMULA88

another way.. to understand it ..

FRMULA88

Once you are sure you have the dist. installed correctly
just look on you tube for videos on how to use a timing light.\


funny watching the video that's how I learned how to do it 26 years ago.

and if I was standing next to you that is how I would show you how to install it


I don't know Jabot,I am beginning to have my doubts. You might fold under questioning

JaBoT

Your just not understanding. Even if the distributor is a tooth off and the #1 wire is at 3 oclock as long as you can turn the distributor to get the timing number you want without the vacuum can hitting anything and the wires reaching. The timing is correct. Timing is timing. The orientation of the distributor is irrelevant. Now visualy the # 1 plug wire is in the wrong place and in the end this should be fixed for numerous reasons starting with if anyone else works on the car. But the timing is still correct.
And what I was saying is even if he is a tooth off that is is not his problem unless he can't turn the distributor enough to get the timing where it needs to be.

FRMULA88

No I understand but you are going to confuse OP and other's with that.

SO, Let's agree to disagree, I learned mechanics by doing, not just by reading books and keeping it simple. My "technical" language may not be 100 % right.. but I do know how to "dead time" a SBC with #1 piston @ TDC, use timing light etc..

For all I know OP thinks he is at #1 TDC and is at #6 instead. Then he sets the rotor at #1 and he can't get accurate timing readings.. You are right timing is timing but there is a "right way" to install a distributor. because there is a difference trying to read timing @ #1 versus timing @#6... or any other hole for that matter, the numbers will be different, unless you know that you will get more confused.

Installed correctly as it relates to #1 @ TDC and this problem solves itself.

Until OP reports back with progress we are just wasting our time.

The video I posted should help him understand better than typing or anything else.

Good luck.

FRMULA88

I see a pattern here.

But I guess the Chief Editor of Hot Rod magazine starring in this video does not know what he is talking about...

Timing marks mean crap.. so does a piston stop if you don't use it correctly.

lol OP can be on #1 exhaust stroke...


watch these MSD vids they will explain it all...

FRMULA88

once you get the dist correct you proceed to timing..

FRMULA88

Once you get the initial and total mechanical timing right.. then go ahead and play with the vacuum advance.

OR you can listen to Jabot complain to me some more, your choice..

however I don't see him posting anything useful to help you.

LsxMatt

iTrader: (4)

Met up with JaBot today. Great guy, got my timing set up and tuned my carb. found out the carb is screwing with the idle and dumping fuel, so im going to order a new one. Gonna bring it back to him after the new one is on so he can tune for me. As of right now, even with the bad carb, engine is running better than it ever has, glad the timing issue is fixed. Thanks again man, ill talk to you soon.

JaBoT

Any time man, enjoy

FRMULA88

excellent!

so what exactly was wrong with your timing? sounds like Jabot set you straight.