Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

so i was riding around on my motorcycle last night and i saw a 90-92 camaro RS well i know its a 305 and i felt like talking some crap to him so i rode up next time him and asked him if it was quick. he thought i wanted to race him with the motorcycle though haha so i was like no i got a v6 camaro like taht that i gurantee can beat your car. he asked me if it was a turbo(not yet haha) and i told him no its a stock 3.1 V6.... well techinically the engine is stock for those of you that dont know my car it has a little bit done to it and is putting down 133hp and 178Tq(look up dyno results on v6 board)

anyways what im wondering is do you guys think i can take it, i know my car isnt all super fast or anything but it will get up and go in a hurry. the only thing done to the 305 is a blowmaster muffler that doesnt sound all that great. i ran one back before i did anything really to my car and i got beat by about a car lengh maybe a car and a half, but that was just when i had the blowmaster on my car and a chip and the car was still auto...

i told him i would be looking for him next weekend and we would go....i wanna know if i can make some money off this....that 3.4 L isnt gonna build itself ya know

kretos

tpi or tbi and was it stick?

if its stick and he canm drive your done, if its an auto you might actually take him depending on the shape of his car

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

its an auto, honestly i dont know if it was tpi or tbi but if i were to guess its a tbi

i saw him get on it once or twice last night, sounded and moved like stocker

1981z28

it had to be tbi they dont make a tpi rs camaro

Sgt.D's92RS

Wake up and smell the Toast because the bacon is burning and the eggs are well done . that 305 will burn ya!!!!

Aredross

Well I know that my tbi 305 is a heck of a lot faster than my multi-port 2.8 but I dont know about a 3.1

Id say the torque department is where he woud have you but since you have a manual..........Its a toss up

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

yeah thats what i was thinking i was pretty sure they didnt make tpi 305 RS's

hahaha yeah hes not gonna burn me im sorry, im sure most of you guys under estimate the 3.1 but i have smoked my share of stock v8s

im pretty sure i would get him off the line as i have posi along with 3.42 gears also along with the manual tranny. he he does manage to beat me it wont be by much....guess we will find out this weekend if i can find him again, maybe ill make some coin in the process

ljnowell

What exactly makes you say that? I raced and beat a few 305 TBI cars with my 87 when it had the 2.8 in it. Granted, they werent the best of cars, but they werent pieces of crap either. It all depends on the drivers, and the states of tune. The 305 TBI wasnt exactly a horsepower giant itself.

MakeitQuick92RS

iTrader: (1)

I raced a buddy of mine with a 92 305. And we were dead even till about 90 where we both let off. Both had the same mods done to our cars. Rather fun race.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

3.1's rated at 140hp or so

305 L03 is like 170 in the newer RS's

the 30hp difference is offset by the wieght of the V8
but the L03 makes ton more torque than the V6 so off the line the 6 should get stomped. but from a roll, it would be close
I would favor the V8 tho

rx7speed

most 3.1's I see are lucky to hit a mid 16
most l03's I see are running mid 16's to high 15's

from what I have done myself seems the 3.1 is a easy car to race in my rx7... friend owned a 91 rs 3.1

the l03's are a little more work sometiems win sometimes lose


I would say 305 would win prolly




Pillsbry10 don't think it's we underestamate them it's rather they aren't that fast simple as that. most are in the low 17 range with a few able to hit a mid to high 16 at best


not going to be able to take that many v8's unless they are heavy cars with some economy motor or would you care sharing what v8's you have beat?

Redarrow1

I'm not sure I would waste my time & money dynoing a stock L03, (or 3.1 for that matter) but if I did I would imagine it's numbers would be similar to those that you posted. I would still put my money on the 305.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

wish our track was still open so i could give you guys times, all i have are the dyno numbers...whats the tq number on a 90 model 305? if you take an guess at the drivetrain loss say at 20% a stock 305 is only putting down around 136hp of that 170 that its rated at most.... my car is putting down 133 hp

then you got the weight diffrence.....i ditched the steel hood long ago and when i swapped trannys to the t-5 that lost a lot of weight as well, so i have a huge weight advantage right? then you have the traction advantage with my posi and gears. im not saying my car is the fastest thign alive but a stock 305 with a flowmaster.....i think hes gonna be surprised

stu

I wouldn't say you have a HUGE weight advantage. What do you think you saved in weight? 50 pounds maybe? I really have no idea, that's why I'm asking.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

only reason i dyoned my 3.1 is becuase i am buliding a pretty beefy 3.4 to swap in and then turboing it so i wanted to see what i was working with now to see the increase im going to get outtve the 3.4.

if my car had a few things tuned timing chain plugs that kinda thing i probably wouldve put down a lot bettter numbers....the engine really is stock other than the few bolt ons

id say i saved total about 100 poudns guessing but the weight diffrence between the 3.1 and a 305 is pretty big, not sure exactly though

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

LO3 is 255 torque lbft

yeah the t5 swap saved alot of weight. V6 is also lighter than 305. hood swap is lighter too so dont be surprised if you got 200lbs advantage on the 305 car. probly more like 300 i think.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

If his car is in a normal state of tune you will lose. Posi won't help either of you much since you can stand on the gas in an A4 LO3 and barely spin. A stock LO3 can put down 150 to 170hp at the wheels. It also makes about 100lb ft more of torque at most points in the curve. There is a reason why it was the next engine on the options list. It is a slouch, and I geuss traction can play a roll to an extend at the very onset of the race, but in the end don't be to confident. I ran quite a few V6'ers way back when my LO3 was stock and I had no problem putting lengths on them.

Redarrow1

I still think he is going to have a torque advantage and provided he can launch I still think he'll have you. Good luck though.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

how many of those v6s had anythign done to them though? most people with v6s keep them stock....ive ran 305s before i did the trans swap posi headers and exhaust, up untill 50mph they were behind me at about 60 they would get a half car maybe a full car on me and we always let off....but that was before i did a lot to it.....we will either run dead even or ill get him but thats just what i think from past expericne with 305s

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Posi won't make you faster and a full exhaust will most likely only add 10 or so at the wheels on a V6 car. I am sure you could beat one that is horrible out of tune (most are since they are pushing 15 years) but I doubt you run mid 15's. As always in this day and age, anything is possible. It is pretty easy to drive an A4 LO3. You point the car forward and stand on the gas. There isn't much room for driver error in this so we can't really say "be the better driver."

Redarrow1

I hope you win, I really do. But I am giving you some opinion with a side of fact. The dyno results you posted and taking into account an optomistic 15% drivetrain loss, indicate that you have added roughly 20hp to your 3.1. So you are still lacking in the h.p department over a completely stock LO3. Not to mention the torque differential is probably close to 100 ftlbs. You've stated some weight reduction methods consisting of a changing of the hood and the transmission. I don't know the weight of the hood but I'll give you 50lbs, the tranny is probably 70lbs lighter than the A4 (however the LO3 could also be equipped with the T5 and therefore any weight advantage would be negated; and lastly the weight difference between the sixer and the eight. I'm guessing maybe 150lbs. So with everything in your favor, you've got 10 less hp, 100 less torque and 270lbs weight advantage. I'll also give you an advantage in that most of those cars equipped with LO3s came with peglegs and 3.08 rears. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'll still stand by the 305.

stu

With the way Red Arrow puts it, it seems like the V6 has a great chance. Hurry up and race him so I can see the results. And no lying.

nidyanazo

2.73 rear in the a4/od 1992 l03 camaro.

nidyanazo

l03 will win, unless out of tune

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

well i guess we will find out cuz im gonna race him now for sure just so that i can say yes i was right or no he got me fair and square....no i wont lie no point in that if if i get beat i get beat...

his car is an automatic so advantage me....by the looks of the car its probably not in good or bad shape really, i would guess mildly tuned by the sound and seeing him get on it more than once sat night while i was on the motorcycle

should be interesting....

i have a question...the hp/tq ratings that these cars have listed everywhere are what its got just at the engine am i right, its not what they put to the ground. i honestly dont see a 305 that is 12 or so years old putting down to the wheels any where near what is rated even tuned(not perfomance tuned just oem tuned if that makes sense)

the fact that mine, not even really tuned or kept up that well since ive had it due to the plan to swap the engine out anyways, is putting out near what just the engine hp is rated and 17 more tq to the wheels is kindve impressive, with a tom p tune up(v6 guys will get that lol) i wouldve put down better numbers im sure

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

The ratings are at the crank and not at the wheels. Every GM V8 produced has been underrated from the get go. Bone stock LO3 cars put down 150 to 180 at the wheels. Age has nothing to do wih the ability to make power. Neglect and poor maintenance do.

nidyanazo

My car is 12 years old. Engine has all records from preivous owner, (service etc.)
When I got her I gave her a full tune, from cleaning the tb, to rotor, cap, plugs wires...etc...you know the drill. I've driven her 13,000miles and she runs like a champ. People don't understand the robustness (? is that a word ?)of the sbc. I think steriotypes play a large role in that, since it's 10-15 years old it won't run good. Not true.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

"Neglect and poor maintenance do" which with these cars is generally the case...espeically kid owned, which the one im racing is....i know i beat the hell outtve my first one

there are very few nice thirdgens in this town maybe 4 or 5...mine and a fellow member deadbirds(even though always garaged lol) included

i kinda wish i had tuned mine all up before the dyno run but there was no real point since the new engine is on its way to being built(if i ever get the parts in) to bad somone in town wont loan me a shot of nitrous till i swap engines....id be running the crap outtve it till it died

Jgolden314

I hope you can beat the living day lights out of your clutch. I think you have a good chance. Just watch his hole shot, it will be decent.

rx7speed

one thing though is the lo3 also has a much broader torque curve then what your v6 is putting out and since peak numbers aren't the claim to fame it's more power under the curve as you will hear.

lo3 has more power/torque through the whole rpm range then what you have

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I agree 100%. Peak numbers mean nothing compaired to the whole curve. The V6 torque curve is laughable next to an LO3's.

anondude13

Yeah L03's have a lot of torque. My bet also goes with the 305. Then again it could be a POS.

rx7speed

think l98 vs lt1 right?

they both are fairly close in the amount of torque and kinda close as to where the torque even starts
but the lt1 makes more torque under the curve and doesn't fall flat on it's face like the l98 does when it hits 4500rpms


don't think I have ever seen a torque curve drop as fast the l98

anondude13

This isn't a very good analogy. The LT1's power is in its revs, and the L98 will frankly kick the LT1's *** at the bottom end. In this case the v6 is the more peaky high revving engine. The L03 is just more motor and will take it as a result. A better analogy would be a low revving big block with 300hp versus an LT1.

rx7speed

now I will be honest and say I don't have the full dyno graph of the lt1 and been a while since I have seen a l98 graph though I remember the waterfall that happened at 4500rpms or there about


but if I am correct
l98 245 @ 4400 345 @ 3200
and lt1 is what? 300 @ 5000rpms and 340 @ 3600rpms? I think


not it isn't that bad
but unlike the l98 where after only 1200rpms torque has fallen off by almost 50lbs/ft

the lt1 is still putting 315lbs/ft down at 5000rpms

over all while even though the lt1 might put a little more down load the overall broadness of the torque curve and which is better goes to lt1
it doesn't have that fall straight down look

9D1Formula350

hey now, my RS has a tuned port in it, granted it didnt come with it, but it has it

anondude13

Right... But an LT1/L98 comparison is not analagous to a 305/3.1 comparison. I think we agree that the "winners" are the LT1 and the 305. However, the LT1 and the 3.1 are the high revvers. I think the L98's torque curve is more impressive than the LT1's, the LT1 can just hold torque to more revs. Furthermore, from your POV the LT1 and the L98 have the same torque and different HP. In the 305/3.1 example, the HP is close in both cars, but the torque over the (limited in a L03) rev range will give the 305 the win. I beleive that is what is meant by the 305 having "more under the curve."

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I don't know how you can say the torque curve is more impressive for the L98. Peak numbers don't mean anything. Not to mention that the LT1 is underrated and will duplicate the L98's toqure. Besides that though it also produces it over a much wider RPM range. The area under the power curve is much much greater. Thats what makes one engine better than the next if they both produce the same peak numbers.

anondude13

My point is that the L98 and the LT1 don't produce the same peak numbers, that's why it isn't the best analogy out there. I was under the impression that the L98 made more torque down low, but having never driven a non-POS LT1, I don't know.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

It does make a tad more down low but the LT1 makes tons more throughout. You are correct about the peak numbers but the LT1 and LS1 actually make more torque everywhere. They just suffer from GM's rating. You have to go by dyno charts and not the cars themselves. The weight difference also makes the L98 seem quicker. The LT1 is basically a next generation L98 with everything fixed that was bad about it.

FbodTrek

Just run the guy. My money is on the 3.1, not because I own a V6 car, but because I know that with a stick, those things move good. The Lo3 is a dog in stock form, adn don't forget weight advantage. You can rev quite a bit higher too (and your powerband is higher up). So it will be a very close race. WHat gearset do you have Pills? I'm looking to go 3.73 myself, help me get into the band faster. (and for the record, I've beat a few V8 F-bodys, not just TBI cars either).

Sgt.D's92RS

Its burning

nidyanazo

305, 305, 305!!! GO 305! Film the race so we can see the outcome.
Just do it at the track....

sprayedcam86

even if ya beat the 305. it still wont be anything to brag about. so i wouldnt waist my time on it.

nidyanazo

sprayedcam86

That's got nothing to do with this topic.
He's asking a question, and weighing the advantages of both motors, to try and predict the outcome. How was your post helpful? You didn't even give an opinion as to who would win.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

id go to the track to race if it was open....i wanted to get times before i pulled the old engine but i cant now. as far as filiming it, it im sure we all know what happens when something illegal is filmed either ends up in the hands of the cops or on the internet at and 18 or older site hahahaha

lol just becuase i cant help to respond to that useless post..everyone else in here has giving good feedback i havent gotten anything that i found to be out of place till that one....anytime a V6 camaro beats a V8 camaro its something to brag about....why becuase it rarely happens. even if the v8 is in horrible shape its still a challenge to some extent, well at least till i get my new 3.4 and turbo on, then very few v8s will be a challenge

anyways hope i can find him this weekend with the holiday and all if not itll be next weekend i see the car all the time, im even gonna do a full check on it afterwards to see what kinda shape its in...oh and dont worry nothing but the truth outtve me, if i get beat youll know it

nidyanazo

I was serious about going to the track. Street racing is lame. I sould stop using the little faces, people don't seem to get the serious nature of my comments.

Were you calling my post useless?

FILM the race to confirm the truth; use a track to be safe.

what's up?

nidyanazo

And I say 305, due to the face I have raced the 2 of the 6 cyl camaros, and won, so I say it with zelousness.

And on the street, that's stupid, and have since learned a lesson.
(currently without a license for another 4.5 months)

I see you like motorbikes also, here's mine but it's fast, without goofy paint

rx7speed

if anything I would almost say it proves my point a little better if the l98 made more torque peak


this is FURTHER PROVING that area under the curve is more important then just peak numbers
the lt1 is faster and it does so with less peak numbers the reason why is due to it's broad torque curve

Redarrow1

I know I've said this before, and I don't know how this became an LT1 v. L98 discussion, but my 89 Formula 350 with headers k&N and a catback couldn't hold a candle to my auto 96 Formula with 3.73s.