Charged350

iTrader: (1)

OK ok, listen, dont go sayin **** you have no idea on what your backin up.

My friend Tom, the kid witht eh trans am, knows how to drive, he had a 10 sec 88 firebird, my cuz knows how to drive, hes had 10 cars in the last 7 years. All 12 and under.

Raced 3 times, all three times my cuz took him out of the hole and never looked back, then he raced my friends nova, and lost lol, but anyway.

The car is fast, faster them my IROC, faster then most cars in out littel click.

That STI did run us, both launched at 7 grand, it was close took him tho, talked with the guy later.
anyway, i have driven most of these cars, and can tell you that the wrx hauls *** better then my Iroc and better then the LS1 and the 2 mustang in our crew. So, dont knock on something until you run it and see what it does, after that tranny goes in, the chip goes in and then a bigger turbo and intercooler, then we shall see whats up.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

So is it a regular WRX or STi? Huge difference here. If it was a plain jane WRX with exhaust and an intake then I stand by my statement. If it was a STi with those mods then ok..it's believable.

TRAXION

It really depends on what mods the WRX has. With an exhaust and an ECU reprogram then the WRX gets 50-60 horsepower at the wheels. This is pretty standard. The car is then rated at 285hp/285lb-ft ... from just a simple exhaust and ECU. This is close to STi territory ... not the same - but close. Again, this isn't theory on my part. My buddy (sits right next to me at work) has this exact combo and I've driven it. Very nice. A lot of guys are doing a cheap VF34 turbo upgrade on the WRXs and putting down some really nice numbers ... for a 4 banger r1c3mobile.

Tim

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

I know the potential of these things, Mr. Traitor Just kidding

The reason I asked was because of the point you just brought up. If it was just a plain WRX with those mods it'd put it near a stock STi which...well..."shouldn't" beat a slightly modded T/A. That's the point I was trying to make.

vejatabul

anyone who has ever driven an awd turbo car knows that you dont "dump" the clutch.......you slip it to build boost......freakin amateurs......

Inwo

I've been saying this for years. No one listens.

TRAXION

It's funny that you just called them amateurs when you are wrong. You don't slip the clutch to built boost. You slip the clutch solely to protect the driveline. To built boost you either A) use launch control from something like the UTEC or B) Stab the gas pedal over and over again hovering around a particular RPM before slipping the clutch.

Slipping the clutch has nothing to do with building boost. Boost is a function of the turbo spool. Turbo spool only happens when there is LOAD on the engine. To create load you can't just hover at a particular RPM. You need to either use launch control or stab the gas pedal over and over again. Tons of guys with upgraded drivelines DUMP the clutch and pull 1.6-1.7 60ft times. They do this by building boost using the previously mentioned methods.

Tim

TRAXION

That truly does depend. A WRX with exhaust and ECU reprogram with a hole shot could very well beat a slightly modded T/A in a street race. It really depends on the drivers. However, the T/A could very well beat the WRX. It solely depends on the ability of the drivers because the WRX would NEED to get the hole shot in order to finish first. I admit that it also depends on the length of the race. 1/8 mile would give the WRX a better shot. If we are talking about a stock WRX then forgetaboutit. The T/A would tear it up - IMHO.

Hole shots with AWD are the factor here. Let's assume a reasonably good driver in both cars ... with street tires. The WRX is gonna pull a ~1.7. The T/A is gonna pull a ~2.0 in the first 60ft. That puts the WRX three car lengths ahead (in the first 60ft). If the WRX is making 285hp and the T/A is making 310hp ... we're only talking about a 25hp advantage in a heavier car. Notice that the 'mods' he was talking about were 4.11 gears which is going to make it HARDER for the T/A to hook up!

Tim

Chrome

Just run around town on E/T's. If you at all know what your doing with a decent stall ought to be able to hook a 1.7-1.8.

TRAXION

That's a lie. I ran around with Drag Radials full time on my IROC. I know what a 1.7 60ft time feels like. No way you can do that on the street unless you have the ability to heat up your tires prior to launch. Remember, E/T's and Drag Radials REQUIRE heat in order to make them sticky!

Tim

stu

Duh, that's why you mount high output space heaters in your rear fenders noob.

25thmustang

I too have to say, the track is NOT like the street. The street has debris, dirt, and NO VHT like the track does. There isnt a layer of rubber down, there isnt a water box to heat your tires up. I really dont think your pulling the same 60's on the street you do at the track!

Also about your sig quote, nope dont know about the smell of your cars exhaust, you were asking Mustangs boys right?

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Lets try to get back on topic guys. This thread is getting a bit winded.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

like traxion says, STI/WRX boys can go quick for alot less than what our cars can.

Cobb stage II reflash on the WRX with exhaust is 285hp. not bad and good for mid 13's or so.

An STI with a few mods like ecu reflash and exhaust work, should go high 12's on a sick launch and trap 106-108mph.

go around on the web and read up on cars that are out there, and you will see that their are some real nice rides out there that arent "crap"

Traxion, you on WRXfanatics ???

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

ITs a WRX, not a sti one. Regular little ****, cat back, new turbo piping, nice intake and a chip, but the chip was not in when we raced Toms trans am which is stock cept for a cat back and 4:11 out back.

dumpin a cluth has nothing to do with boost as stated b4, you pump the gas around the rpm you wanna drop it at and it builds enough boost to make it spin all 4s and launch like a squirel on crack.

So unless you drive one with a combo like that or simmilar to it and then grive a 02 trans am agains it with those mods, you cant say ****, but if ya take a trip to ny once we get the tranny in, we'll show ya.

stu

I don't think your friends WRX has the power to spin all four tires.

25thmustang

From what I have been told by WRX owners, if you know how to, this can happen. And by spin I mean spin for a slight moment then the car goes. The kid who told me this actually posts on here as CobraKiller, and had been in the mid 1.7 60's with his bolt on WRX!

stu

I guess there is just a discrepency in the definition of 'spin' the tires. I can believe a chirp, but you don't know if that's all 4 tires or not.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

So he an intake and catback...like I said you buddy can't drive. His T/A should be in the 12's with that for Christ sake

freestylzz

Yes, I wouldn't think it's not easy when you are running stock. My co-worker kept egging me on to run his new STI last summer and, to his misfortunte, I decided that I should after he kept runner his mouth.

60 ft'r he had a car on me, 1/8 mile I'm up by 3...

I give him the juice 1/2 way through and he's toast....I figure by 12 car lengths.

When I see him I hand him a Tropicana bottle and tell him he's been "juiced".

It's too bad he refuses to talk to me since. I forgot to mention he was juicing it too LOL. Do your homework and and you too can make toast out of people.

Chrome

Maybe I'll try putting a Transfer Case on my old POS 85'. Somehow refab the front end and make it AWD. LOL

Possible?

Chrome

I'll get some fuel fragrance so it'll smell alittle better for ya! .

heh

----------

No thats an old quote, really shoud be Mr. R1cer,... You Stang guys are always good competition! Not like the little boys 10' wing on a Beretta, LOL.

Chrome

So 1.7-1.8's can't be done on the street at all??? Forgive me for asking 1st time at the track is this year so as far as what can and can't be done just going by heresay for the moment...

So what would be a /good/ street 60' foot time, and also any tips for improving traction in 'street' conditions???

Kingtal0n

Just browsing through, but Since trax decided to add some factual information to the thread, I figured I would add some of my own, since it involves the aformentioned 240SX.

I bought a 92 240SX, KA24DE motor, 150~RWHP (yes rear wheel). None of the 240's in the usa EVER Came with a turbo... But if you go to JAPAN there are 180SX's, which are identical to the hatchback 240SX here, and they either got the CA18DET motor (1.8L turbo) or the SR20DET Motor (2.0L Turbo)

Now, both motors can be shipped directly from japan, (right hand drive and all) and they drop RIGHT INTO the USA 240SX, with NO modifications. Even the motor mounts from the KA24 fit the SR20 motor.

The S13 (95-98 blacktop non VTC) SR20 is rated 205HP, with a factory boost of 7PSI on the actuator. Without any modifications to the motor at ALL, you can move the boost to 15PSI (max for the tiny T-25 turbo) and make a staggering 250-270 Rear Wheel horsepower.

This doesnt sound like much, but in a 2600Lb. car with a 7000RPM redline, 4.08 factory gears, thats a 12.9 @ 113 for me, WITH a 2.2 60' Time on 195/60/15 Steel hubcap rims. All of this without modifying ANYTHING, you just throw the motor into the car and bolt it down.

Now the fun part. Just like a chevy, the Japanese community makes upgrade parts for it. You swap in some 264 @ .050 cam"s" (DOHC), a Greddy Intake manifold, A GT2871R Turbo (for example), and the basics Injectors, maf, ecu tune/SAFC mod.

Now what? Your close to 410Rear wheel horsepower. thats mid 10-second territory for my 240SX, with the same 2.2 60' time. Keep in mind this is all without touching the internals of the SR20det... the factory includes aluminum pistons, forged crank, and forged rods. Compression ratio is 8.5:1.

And this in full-street drivability trim. the example turbo full boosts before 3500RPM, slightly laggier than stock (which is about 3200RPM). This is what I consider the max before you breach what I call street manners.

Many others choose the high road, SC61 turbos with full boost by 4500RPM, making well over 500Horsepower at the wheels without touching the internals / tranny / rear end. Enjuku's Race car is making almost 650RWHP on the stock internals (enjukuracing.com) of the SR20DET. Street manners were decent when I drove it, before the tune was complete.

And over all of this, I just finished my fathers car, same 240SX but instead of the SR20DET... we opted for something meaner and larger, the RB25DET Skyline GTR motor. Dont EVEN get me started on this thing, and ITS Stock TOO, weighing ONLY an extra 220Lbs over the SR20DET, with 2 extra cylinders and an iron block to boot.

Dont knock the JDM. Those guys know what they are doing. Did you know there are 5 different size STD bearings for the Japanese motors? while GM is using STD/STD bearings in .00XX increments, japan is using STD/STD +/- .00025X increments. same goes for the pistons. Sick huh?

TRAXION

Way to go Kingtal0n. I had no idea you knew anything about JDM stuff. Holy shiznit. All this stuff about the Subarus gets further weird when you consider the Subaru actually has the LEAST potential out of stuff like what you mentioned. The motor you mentioned and the 4G63's in in the EVOs are just incredible. They can take 500-600 flywheel horsepower without problems. The STi motor cracks ringlands like there is no tomorrow. Can you believe that we are plagued with hyperpathetic pistons? Total crap. I knew this going in .... but I didn't buy the STi for it's potential. It's a stop gap car for me for the next decade or so while my family grows and we plant ourselves in a new house. The STi has the best safety ratings, the best interior, the best AWD mechanism, and the best reliability ratings as compared to competitors like the EVO. However, that EVO is like absolutely amazing. I can't believe how much power that 4G63 can handle. It truly is an incredible motor.

Tim

Chrome

Man, Turbo's just make me all weak in the knees...

Too bad GM didn't use some of the technology from the badass TTA's, GN's, Syclone's, and Typhoon's and apply that to some 4th Gen FBods. Can you image a TLS1 Factory! or Even a TL98 .

The turbo coming from the factory automatically (even if its tuned low) gives you so many more options for power then a NA car.

I may not like imports, but I have to give them the respect for supplying potentially fast cars to the market cheap!

HorseflyDF

hey now we have a JDM infection goin on .

My 89 celica gts could bolt on a red top beam 3sge
but that engine is hard to get and expensive.
If you put a turbo that engine your looking at some serious
numbers over 500 hp is possible.
red beamer 3sge vvti NA comes in at 250 horsepower
holy chit

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

its called the B2K optioned Vettes of the late 80's and till 91.

callaway twin turbo TPI vette. 380hp and 520lbft or something like that for the later years. one quick ride and about as expensive as if not a tad bit cheaper than the Zr1 was.

the thing i cant understand is how alot of the foreign car companies can offer stock internals on motors, rearends/drivetrain, trannies and stuff that can handle 400-500-600+ hp without any changes.... seems like thats WAY to much over kill of a car thats making less than 250hp factory or in some cases less than 320hp(supra/STI/Evo and such) and would drive up the price of production. doesnt make sense. maybe thats why you pay 30+K for a Evo and 40-50K brand new for a Supra when it came out.

If only GM and Ford were to make their stock internals/trannies, and such be able to handle a solid 600hp......

Kingtal0n

While I agree the foundations behind these motors is strong, I think you are missing the fact that things dont break as often simply because the motor loads the drivetrain differently. Where a N/A 350 can shock the drivetrain with its available 400+Ft.Lbs of torque right off the line to snap axles, twist driveshafts, strip ring gears, explode clutches, and rip out input shafts...

On the other hand, you have a turbo'd 2.0-3.0L motor, making power gradually as the turbo spools, finnally picking up well after the torque of a chevy V8 is already dropping off, and peaking well after the point the stroke of said V8 would have bounced out your oil pan, I think you can see why certain items dont tend to explode in the midst of it all.

Hell, factory redline on the RB25 is 8000 rpm right -about the same for the 2JZ Supra motor. The stroke is something like 78mm or thereabouts for the RB. the SR20's stroke is 86MM. The SR20's torque curve isnt even worth registering on the dyno chart until 3500RPM... I dont think ANY chevy V8 can say that. This is why when I dump my clutch at 5000, 6000, or 7000 rpms... I dont have to go back after the race is over to look for parts that blew off my motor.

On a side note, People still break things. Last week a turbo KA2.4L makeing 540Ft.Lbs of torque and 580RWHP snapped the input shaft out of his 5-speed doing a 7500RPM clutch dump on M/T's at moroso. He, however, has a triple plate clutch to carry that kind of launch, something I would never install on a street car. Sigh* he still drives it daily, though. Very well mannered car.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

Ford has used forged internals on all of their 5.0's except 91 thru 93 I beleive. Most of the 4.6's as well. I am sure 25th knows the exact years.

They couldn't because of how fast they would be. You are talking about a combo that would put over 600 at the wheels. There are a few turbo LS1's in our club with nothing more than a powerglide tranny, moser rear and a cage running deep into the 9's. That is with 9psi on a stock 346 bottom end. They have since upgraded the bottom end to avoid inevitable diasaster. Their single turbo 382 LS1 drag car is about to break into the very high 7's. They are unstreetably fast and have to have parachutes

25thmustang

93-95 were not forged, earlier than that the roller 5.0s were. The blocks breaking point stands right around 500rwhp. Some make more, some crack with less, but a good tune and 500rwhp and the stock bottem end should be good.

Also the 03-04 Cobras were insanely strong. Well over 600 rwhp and they handle it with ease.

stu

Best thread ever!

Charged350

iTrader: (1)

The trans am ran a 12.2 at the hamptons track after the 4:11 were put in, and he did loose 3 times to the wrx, and he has a gtec thing in his car, i know they arent the most accurate things but it read a 1.4 60 foot.

but anyway, if you are ever in ny, tell me, ill show ya.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for proving my point even further

and no, I don't hang out in Queens...I stay in Brooklyn, thanks.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You are not entirely right. Slipping the clutch keep the motor at a higher rpm and loads it as well as protects the driveline. Trust me I have ridden with someone that knows what they are doing on launching a turbo car. Just reving up the engine and dumping the clutch is not only a way to kill parts but also make very little boost and not get off the line very quick. Basically you will leap off the line and fall on your face. Basically the way to launch a turbo car the best I have found is to start about 5,00-1,000 rpm under what you want to launch at, slip the clutch a little, while going WOT. I have seen a boost gauge burry itself doing that. OOPS. Car jumped off like it was rear ended by a semi.

Another way to improve my explination continually pumping the gas won't do too much. The engine doesn't have a load on it. Consider that a VS carb also works off of load. No amount of racing the engine without the transmission in gear and the engine loaded is going to open the secondaries. Turbos are the same way, you have to have a LOAD on the motor. You won't make as much boost by simply reving the engine.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Another thing is I have driven a buddies turbo'd del slow. To make the blow off valve work without the engine under a load I had to floor the pedal from idle to 6,500 and let off. It never made more than 5 psi of boost. On the road in higher gears even under part throttle load it was making more than 10. He is where I learned the slipping the clutch part. Just reving the engine up and down and dumping the clutch atleast on that car is a way for it to screech the tires and fall on it face until about 30 ft off the line where the turbo lag goes away.

TRAXION

I know how to drive / launch a turbo 4-banger. I actually have one ... and I actually frequent the boards where people post how they achieve the best 60ft times. Yes, slipping the clutch is a necessity in my opinion. However, you stated you slip the clutch to build boost. That is wrong. Slipping the clutch can help to maintain boost on a launch ... but it doesn't build boost. The only way to build boost on a launch is to create load. Load can only be created by stabbing the gas pedal. Period. As far as dumping the clutch - I am NOT an advocate of it. However, many people do it and achieve VERY good 60ft times. You won't bog if the RPMs are high enough when you launch.

Tim

Psycho_91Camaro

Heres the link to those STI's
http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/impreza_wrx_sti.asp

Kingtal0n

When I first got my motor in my 240SX, I had to go to the track to see what it would do.

I was early, and few people were there early, so I got a few runs in real easy.

My very first run was 15.5 @ 97MPH. My next was 15.7 @ 98MPH. I was doing this on 12PSI instead of 15 because I figured traction would suck with 195's out back, but i never spun at all. My 60's were 2.5 and 2.65, without spin, and I was slipping the clutch as I had been taught in my camaro.

Well about an hour later another 240 shows up with the same motor, and goes 13.5 @ 106. I watched him launch, he dumped the clutch.

So I ask him what his techniques are, he pulled a 2.0 60' on the same size tires as me. he said there is no technique, just 4000RPM and DUMP.

4000 + dump? Interesting.

My next pass was a 13.8 @ 104.
I turn the boost up to 15PSI.
14.2 @ 108 (that time I spun)
finnaly, a 13.1 @ 110

dumped at 4500RPM. slipping the clutch did nothing for me, except burn it up.

chikn305

iTrader: (2)

Just want to give some actual track numbers for an sti. My brother has an 04 sti with turbo back exhaust and cobb access port it has ran 8.12 @ 87mph 1/8 mi with a 1.8 60ft the track was cold and it wasn't 60fting like it usually does. Last season when the car was completely stock it pulled consistent 1.6 60's and ran 8.4 @ 84mph 1/8 miles

HorseflyDF

I got the numbers off the block
10066036
Its a goodwrench 350 sbc but
I couldnt get much more info

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Hmmmmm....sounds like a crate motor. I'm sure you can get more info from the vendors that sell the goodwrench motors.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

What are the casting numbers on the heads?

HorseflyDF

I didnt check the head yet Ill make sure to do it soon.
Im getting ready to leave soon to visit my daughter
in Tennessee.

Since my last post
I tuned up the engine cleaned off the plugs bought a few
new spark plugs,
advanced the timing it was set at 0 set it to 6.
Also turned the idle screws up it was to lean and backfired
threw the carb when I put my foot down unless she was running hot.

She has good torque and I am getting good gas
milage, Im not dissapointed but would like tighten up the chassis.
She likes to flex on uneven surfaces like going up a driveway
from a turn.


Ill check with a vendor Mr. Goodwrench.com maybe?
Couldnt find a website to give me the all info I wanted .
Only thing I did find so far was the 350 SBC was listed on a site
for performance truck engines, built from 80-85 in mexico
Could be either 2 or 4 bolt main.

Mcdamit

i have heard a little bit about why gm underrates their engines, back in the 60's a forget which year the corvette 427 was astronomical in horsepower and they rated it at what it was actually pushing, but insurance for cars was going up and so they underrated the engine, so people would continue to buy the vette. Since then most sports cars have been underrated. I saw it on Speed channel about a year ago.

Tobias05

It could be that 1200 dollar goodwrench wonder motor from summit and the likes. Basically a truck/van replacement engine equipped with less than optimal heads/cam for a performance application. Maybe a little more power than the LG4 that was torn out, but with much more potential.

Good luck buddy,
Brandon

blacksheep-1

Strange, I just welded the living crap out of a couple of WRX's at the autocross a few weeks ago, in my lo tech 22 year old, 240,000 mile thirdgen. (car #33)
http://www.sunridersautocross.com/sr...ultsByTime.pdf
BTW the GMC Typhoon didn't run bad either.

mdricken

Don't feel too bad guys. I just checked prices on the "fast" WRX sti:

$30,000 +

Throw $10k at any 3rd gen car and it will make the WRX look like it is standing still.

stu

Good argument. We all know that everyone and all their buddies regularly put $10,000 into a third gen. lol

mdricken

Have you checked ebay lately?

You can always find at least one vehicle in the $10k range that somebody threw in some 500hp motor and now wants to get rid of it.