nickhil2003

i read that a while ago its pretty sad for someone to be so misinformed

nickhil2003

hoenstly though i hope he is just acting, otherwise my 9 year old cousin knows more than him

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

I hope he is too, but apparently he isn't.

I mean, we all started somewhere, and were wrong at one point. Such as myself, I am absolutely horrible when it comes to electrical issues. I do not understand the odd looking codes of fuel injection, and most likely could not wire up any electrical accessory in a third gen unless the wires were pre-labeled.

However, people that have this "low end torque and backpressure" mentality p!ss me off. To run mid 10's (10.5's) with a 3,600 pound car, you would need roughly 700 Horsepower. Says an ET calculator!

To produce 700 Horsepower at 3,000 RPM, you would need to produce 1,225 FT-LBS of Torque.

To produce that same 700 Horsepower at let's say, 6,800 RPM, you would need to produce a mere 540 FT-LBS. Nothing to laugh at, but a lot less stress on the engine to achieve that 700 Horsepower mark, and run them mid 10's.

What this noob doesn't understand, is that with more peak power through a high revving engine, and less Torque, you are actually doing more work, as in FT-LBS applied/Minute.

300 Horsepower at 5,000 RPM would require a constant force of 315 FT-LBS of Torque.

500 Horsepower at 11,000 RPM would require a constant force of only 238 FT-LBS.

Yet, since on Horsepower = 33,000 FT-LBS of work done a minute, or 550 FT-LBS a minute, let's figure this out.

For that 300 Horsepower rating, that is 9,900,000 FT-LBS/Minute. Or as smart people like to say, "FT-LBS of work done over time".

For 500 Horsepower, it requires 16,500,000 FT-LBS/Minute.

You need less actual Torque to achive that 500 Horsepower at considerably higher RPM's, but it is doing more work per minute than that 300 Horsepower "Torquey" engine which will have the stock headers, stock gears, restrictive exhaust system, LOL. That's called the "ninetyone equipment" for going fast. It is doing that by applying although less Torque, applying it at a much higher rate, therefore no matter how you look at it, doing more work to make that vehicle faster.

I'll always be an American muscle guy, but stuff like this is what makes me love F1 racing. Them guys understand how to make power, and go fast.

F1 teams are limited to a 90 degree V8 with a maximum displacement of 2.4 liters, they're limited to 4V style heads, no active exhaust systems allowed (For increased exhaust velocity down low in the RPM range, not backpressure, such as what ninetyone would think). No variable valve timing, what we like to call "VTAK". Strictly naturally aspirated, and they may only consume air, and gasoline. No meth to cool the engine, no type of cooling for the air intake whatsoever, and they are revving to 18,000 RPM. What's neat, is that they can easily hit 18,000 with an iron alloy crankshaft.

Hey! Ninetyone! Put third gen manifolds on an F1 car, and it'll run better! It'll make a lot of Torque at 3,000 RPM, despite the fact that these cars IDLE at roughly 4,000-5,000 RPM.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Shadow, did you come up for air while writing all of that?

Feel better now?

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

I took a quick breather in between, and got a drink. LOL.

Yes, I do feel better. Ninetyone challenged me to a little race since I'm buying an '01-'04 Mustang this winter. That's where his "I can beat an 04' Mustang" comment came from, that you commented on. I'd be shocked if him and his slow 100% stock TPI, that now is even SLOWER due to them Edelbrock headers he bought, showed up.

Well, in 'ninetyone expert engine knowledge class', headers do make any third gen slower. I don't know why he wasted hundreds on Edelbrock headers then. He's paying for himself to go slower!

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Damn it, I have those headers too I guess I slowed down as well.

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

You sure did slow it down a bit. It's heaps slower. Even on your supercharged L98, you need stock manifolds for backpressure! Not to mention that them heavy slugs give you added weight on the front end, improving your traction, since your car is front wheel drive.

By the way, if you throw some stock 245/50/16 Goodyears on there, get yourself a set of 1:1 front diff. gears, run a 0.30 O/D gear, you'll be able to hit 760+ MPH without going over 3,000 RPM! Yeah! Stay in that torque range!

I'm having too much fun with this.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

I do have the stock rims and tire sizes on there so I'm headed in the right direction.

Now, I might run them down to like 2/32nds tread...less tread=less rotating mass right?

I might actually start putting diesel gas in my car...it makes all kinds of low end torque right?

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

I'd recommend driving on the rim. No tires at all is a lot less rotating mass.

Yes, certainly. Mix some Diesel in there once in a while, 6 gallons of octane booster per every gallon of Diesel. Everyone knows that more octane = more power. I run 210 octane Diesel in my VW Jetta TDI. You wouldn't believe how much more power it gives me. That little low revving 1.9 liter turbo Diesel will really get up and go with 210 octane. It bumps me up to 192 RWHP at the exhaust valves.

I'm going to get back on topic here for a little bit, though.

Here's an all motor 2.0 liter Civic hatch running 11.7's at 110+ MPH.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPP3I...feature=search

Here's a pretty quick little Civic maxing out a 200 KPH speedometer at a little over 9,000 RPM in 4th gear, them climbing nearly another 1,000 RPM in 5th, with that 200 KPH speedo as mentioned, maxed out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzW8E...feature=search

I'm not familiar with the gearing or tires he's running, but an educated guess would be that he hit somewhere around 140 MPH. Since 200 KPH = 124 MPH.

I feel that this discussion is already over though. LOL.

nickhil2003

my friend at school had a nice hunyndai tusconi that actually moved pretty good, but of course he had a big spoiler and the stickers to match, itwas a nice looking car before he riced it out

ls six

Tuscon? The suv? Or Tiburon, the hatchback coupe?

nickhil2003

sorry the hatchback coupe

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

That would be a Tiburon not a tusconi Where did you even come up with that name, sounds like an Italian dish

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

It's actually Tuscani. It's Italian for shark. I was the Asst. Parts Manager for a Hyundai dealer here in town for 2 years and I have to tell that these cars aren't what I would call a sports car. Now the new Genesis coupe is pretty nice. I wouldn't mind having one myself.

xTIMBERxWOLFx

but to be fair.. if you matched the same "mod for mod" v-8 will destroy an I-4.. if that makes you feel any better

transamws6

i seen a crx do a big burnout in 5th gear....and a third gen doing a burnout in 3 rd gear..

slowmaro87

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Uuuummm ok?

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

He just wanted to feel special and part of the discussion

nickhil2003

just needs a little attention,(his friends drive hondas)

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Ah gotcha. lol

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

LOL

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

You kind of forgot that email notifications contain the original post.

"Dear Shadow Z,

ninetyone has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Can
hondas REALLY be fast? - in the Theoretical and Street Racing forum of Third
Generation F-Body Message Boards.

This thread is located at:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/show...7&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
My car is not stock.LOL"

I'm sure it isn't. You have headers! Although, before you were complaining that headers make a third gen peform "out of" their stock powerband, which is so horrible!

3.73 gears make them slow, headers make them slow, ported or aftermarket intake manifolds make them slow, a head port job with larger valves makes them slow, aftermarket cams make them slow, turbochargers make them slow, nitrous makes them slow.

Pretty much anything designed to help a TPI perform better above 5,000 RPM makes them slow, in your sh!tty opinion!

Yeesh, thanks for making me aware of all of that a few weeks ago. It makes me happy that I'm running a carb setup!

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

No, what I said is headers and just about any other modification is going to move your power UP in the rpm's. Also, sometimes 373 gears will make your car slower. For example, my car is faster with 2.73 gear ratio rather thatn a 3.73. At this point anyway. Now, if i added a 3.73 anyway, then I would probably lose about three tenths of a second, but if I add a cam like a 204/214 duration cam to the now 3.73 equipped car then I would have just made my car a full second quicker. I would be pushing 350 horsepower with just a cam, shorty headers and 3.73 gears. So, what I was saying is a lot of these guys on here just throw parts on their cars without thinking or understanding what may or may not happen. Of course if you do anything at all to our cars, and really any car for that matter , it is going to affect low end torque. That is a given.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Actually anyone heard of the L98 supercam. That is the cam that will make 350 horsepower on our cars with just headers, and a 373. Research it for yourself. That 204/214 one I mentioned will probably make closer to 300 hp, but I was trying to make a point.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

In fact adding the L98 Supercam from Tpis, 3.73 gears and shorty headers will absolutely make 350 hp on stock heads and a quarter mile of about 13 flat. You could probably hit a twelve of course.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

I wanted to give a big apology to all out there that I may have misinformed. I should have worded it better. What I think I meant to say was this: After certain mods on a thirdgen car, there will sometimes be a noticable feeling of loss in low end. Yes, with headers too, but that is not saying that it does not increase your over all power. It will. Now with the right and careful combo of parts , you can make a thirdgen fly with only a few mods like a cam, gears(because of your cam selection) and yes, headers. In fact UP TO 350 Horsepower and high 12's, CAN be acheived using the stock heads.

lc1driver

3.73?
Thats a gear ratio. Gear ratio has an impact on HP??

Whats the HP of an o-200 engine? It is a direct drive engine, that is to say 1:1. What if I put a constant speed prop on it, does the HP of the engine change as I push or pull the lever, or is it just how efficiently the available power is used?

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

It doesnt. However, what I was saying is this: Say you are using a 207/213 @50 cam and headers. Ok, you will run say a 13.7 @ 107 mph with 356 Hp. Ok, now get rid of your 2.73 gear ratio and add a 3.73. Now , you are running a 13.0 quarter mile @ 109 mph with the same Hp.That is what I was saying.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Those cam specs I mentioned were just an example also.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Before adding that cam, I would have been faster with just the 2.73 ratio though.

lc1driver

Oh, well you can understand my confusion then when you said

It seemed irrelevant to mention the rear end ratio when talking about horse power. Kind of like a guy I used to work with that swore that pin stripes would make a car go faster by channeling the air flow past the sides of the car more smoothly.

Glad to hear you say that gear ratio doesn't affect HP cause I was gonna mention that I have 500 HP @ 2100 RPM with over 1400 ft-lbs of tq. It is geared so low that 0-60, 0-80, and 0-100 figures are in yes or no answers.
0-60 yes
0-80 yes, eventually
0-100 no.
It does take 18 gears to do it though.

Of course it will walk the dog all day long at 105,500 lbs. But HP is HP right? there is no difference between 500 HP in my truck and 500 HP in a car so I guess we can conclude that gearing has more to do with application than anything else.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

What are YOU talking about? I was mentioning the RIGHT combo of parts to achieve a faster car period. Yes, a person may have a 350 hp car with the right cam. In order to take advantage of that "right" cam, I was saying that changing to a different gear ratio would be necessary. Get it???

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Changing to a different gear ratio would ONLY be necessary to take advantage of the camshaft change in this given situation.

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Time slips or it never happened. I have NEVER in my life seen ANY car be slower, with lower gears, compared to something as steep as 2.73.

Do you honestly think that any car is going to pull harder in a gear that's capable of 167 miles per hour, compared to a gear that is capable of 122 miles per hour? That's absolute bologna.

(2.73:1 rear, 1:1 third gear, 245/50/16 tires, 6000 RPM = 167 MPH. With 3.73:1's = 122 MPH.)

I don't care how much you think that third gen TPI motors are some outrageous low torque engine, that you believe is comparable to the low end torque of a big block. It's not true. You won't find any TPI that'll pull harder in a gear that's capable of 167 MPH, opposed to 122 MPH.

Gearing in a drivetrain is essentially a measure of friction. Friction that, that engine has to overcome, in order to attain a specific speed. When you take away gearing, I.E. swapping 2.73's for 3.73's, you're practically taking friction out of that drivetrain in a way, making it easier for that engine to pull to that gear's top speed.

I really would absolutely love to see time slips of your car being faster with 2.73's opposed to 3.73's, with absolutely 0 other mods swapped between the gear swap.

Unless you're sand bagging with 3.73's, or somehow run out of gearing at less than 120 MPH due to some odd, incredibly small tires, and/or very high transmission gearing, it won't happen.

Do me a favor, and go to a speed/tuning shop near you. A high profile place that's building turbo'd small blocks. You'll see that they do not even start recording the data until at least 3 grand, sometimes as high as 5K RPM, because with some setups, it's a huge waste of time to even care about low end power.

I've personally seen a lot of people running 4,000+ RPM stall torque converters. Guys with manuals dropping the clutch at 6,000 to nearly 7,000, and shifting at 7,500.

I mean, right here, this is a Cobra that's just launching at 7K.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNMye8BTNYI

Stock Cobra motors don't rev much higher than any stock TPI. A whole 500 more RPM. In the case of the PI series GT motors, the limiter kicks in at 6,050.

I'm glad that you apologized for the incorrect information, because honestly, no one cares about low end torque if you're attempting to go fast. Even the diesel guys running pulling rigs, and the numerous 5.9 Cummins drag trucks out there. They're hitting 5K. These are engines that produce over 400 FT-LBS of torque just above idle, stock, in the case of the later 5.9's.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

It will be a slower time with 3.73's in a TPI car because of the Tpi and the stock cam.

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

LOL. Alright chief, I'll take your word on that!

I love how pathetic all of your generalizations are.

"Oh well a car that doesn't make much power past 5 grand surely won't be quicker in the 1/4 mile with 3.73's, opposed to 2.73's."

Got time slips proving it?

Nevermind, I shouldn't ask. You're not making one bit of sense. A car is just not going to pull harder in a gear that's capable of 167 MPH, compared to a gear that's capable of 122. That is absolute non sense. You can go right ahead and keep racing your car at 3,000 RPM though, thinking that it's quick because your parts "match" this whole high torque, low RPM powerband.

I'll continue to buy parts that advertise strong power higher in the RPM range. Such as my long tubes, my Edelbrock 650, my Performer intake manifold. Then, coming later on next year, I've decided to pick up some Performer RPM 185 64cc heads, since I'd like to, but wouldn't be able to justify the price of the Brodix heads that I previously had my eyes on.

You can stick with your stock cam, stock heads, stock intake manifold, all in the name of that good ol' low end torque!

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'd cry if you were my engine builder. Given a stock small block, and enough cash for some bolt ons, you'd probably save the cash, and claim that if you keep every part "matched" to the other part's operating range, it'll be faster!

Oh, EDIT: I suppose that advancing the timing is bad too, right? You should keep the stock timing figures, so that you don't accidentally increase the degree at which the air/fuel mixture is ignited, which would give you more leverage on the crankshaft, resulting in more power! More power is a no-no!!!

lc1driver

you didn't say faster car, you said HP.

Get it.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

So a TPI oriented cam and a simple set of shorty headers will give you a 110hp gain? F'in and you know it.

A cam swap will not give you LS1 type power.

You're either a troll and one clueless guy.....I'm unfortunately thinking the latter. I hope you don't spend ANY time near thirdgen or fbodies in general....I'd hate to be the poor sap that let you work on one.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

My guess is he had the Italian made Baldini tires and roasted them poor things off of the line....hence the slower time...or he's just a moron....or both....or there was a 130mph headwind....so maybe all 3

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

.....so you're saying it's a foolish to ditch the 2.77's or 2.73's(depending on the rear) and upgrade so something steeper? Did you let GM know this? They're the ones that offered different ratios too lol.....so I guess I should ditch my 3.27's and go to 2.77's?

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

This gets funnier by the post. I hope I actually get to meet ninetyone in person, since we're from the same state.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Ok, timeslip of a stock 350 TPI car. 14.64 @ 94.9 mph. 6.316 seconds from 0-60. Ok, that is with a 2.73:1 gear ratio. Which I don't believe was even offered on 350 TPI cars. It was mainly used on 305 TB. Anyway, switching to a 3.73:1 changed quarter mile ET to a 15.06 @ 95.8 mph. Now adding headers to an otherwise stock TPI 350 with a 2.73:1 gear ratio changed ET to 14.4 @ 96.2 mph. Now a switch to a 3.73:1 with headers would yield a 14.84 @97.1 mph. Proving with mainly stock TPI, the car does better with a 2.73:1 gear ratio, cause it will stay in it's usable powerband longer.

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Cite your source, or show timeslips. I personally believe that you're getting carried away with your Horsepower calculator, and 1/4 estimator.

EDIT: I mean, making **** up.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

My opinion is there is no point in going to a 3.73:1 gear . I think a 4.11:1 is where you would start to see a difference, and only if it was needed because you have changed other things on your car. I can show you an article from Gm high performance magazine showing their results with a late 80's Tpi car if you like also. Same thing, their ET's got worse with a 3.73.LOL

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Uh oh, Shadow Z sounds a little nervous now. Whatsamata is you skeerd?

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

That's why it's called an opinion. Your opinion sucks, and they contradict themselves. You claim that 3.73's make a TPI rev way out of it's powerband, now you're saying that you'll see a difference (implying a GOOD difference) with 4.11's?

Honestly, just shut up already..

Shadow Z

iTrader: (2)

Yes, I'm very nervous. I'm scared of someone who claims that his buddy's stock internal 305 could pull wheelies on the highway at 55 MPH. Someone who thinks headers slow you down. Someone who thinks that parachutes are required for an 11 second car.

If you haven't noticed, between different threads, over 30 members of this forum have repeatedly just right out laughed at you. But yes, I'm nervous due to you and your make-believe stories.

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

With a 4.11:1 , you will see a slight, and I mean slight improvement over a 2.73:1. Anything below a 411 and above a 273 will make it slower. I may just have to post the article and testing for you. Then maybe you will start to understand. Maybe LOL

ninetyone

iTrader: (2)

Yes, I think that boy is skeerd! Isn't that how it pronounced where you are from?