v10viper04

I have seen LTx(which is a sbc bottom end and head style) go low 11's on heads(LE1) and cam and obviously the accompanying mods. But the LSx heads out of the box flow better then stock LT1 heads so the LE1 heads are evening out the playing field. Not to mention the LTx has like 10 less cubes. Not picking a fight but i'm just backing up my opinions....

v10viper04

And yes i would go LSx if i could afford it, but I'm happy with my LTx motor. Makes comparable power for much less money. Not to mention i personally think that the LTx's plenum is cooler looking. Its all user preference really...

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I run carb, so plenum is mute for me. As for everything else, the LS is just the best platform for a budget guy, or anyone else that wants to make a ton of power. LTx engines were a limited run of the mill for a reason. So, otherwise, i have ad all 3 and hated the LT1. The SBC was cool, till i went with the newest stuff. So, old school carb(Vic Jr intake out flows any EFI intake till you spend 1500$ plus) with the newer long block, many hurt feelings and i have not dont anything but a cam swap.

The record for a stock long block LS1(5.7) is 10.4 in the quarter, unported heads and the bolt ons to support the cam, that is a 5.7, so there is no extra 10 cubes. Gets it done, all day every day. The Optispark can be a PITA and there is crap aftermarket support for the LTx.

500+ ci can be had from the LS aftermarket. So, with no given dollar amount on up to a budget, the LS wins.

There are cocky LS guys, but hell, they have a reason to be, i wish i had gone LS sooner honestly.

NY3RDGEN

Yea but. The Mini ram'ed 383 will beat the 6.0 to, and over the 1/8th. The LSX makes its power on the top end. You proved that in youre video with the Fox body. I see it. And do it. On the streets all the time. Hypothetical question here- youre carbed 6.0 vs the 383 in question, both mid to low 11sec cars on a good track under good conditions. But on the Blvd, Light to next light. Which is less than an 1/8th mile.. Two identical cars, and drivers. Who wins???

Not trying to do a flame thing, Just good ole debating

And dont get me wrong. I LOVE the LSX motors. My next car will be an artic white 02 WS6, with a snail. But were in a "street racing" forum now.

Actually around here, the BIG boys run old high nickel shorter stroke small blocks, like 367 ect, with bowtie heads and boost. They put down the real power here in NY. And F1 BBC's. Stuff like that still dominates.

So, yea, If you have a 1/4 strip (which we dont here) or you do high speed "roll racing" which IMO is stupid and dangerous. Than LSX is great and reliable. But if you wanna shred tires, and destroy cars off the line. Ole SBC is the way to go.. Ususally anyway, lol.

But all in all. Any GEN SBC can be built to run faster than another.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

The reason Zone was behind in that mustang race was because he smoked his bald drag radials off the line through first and 2nd gear. That looks like torque to me. Not sure where your going with your argument here.....the mini ram on a 383 you state is a torque monster 1/8 mile set up but the mini ram was never designed for torque. It's purpose is high RPM. It's simple really, shorter runner and matching cam is high rpm, long runner and matching cam is low rpm. Any engine can be made to have torque but a well set up motor will get off the line good and pull like a bear to 6500 RPM or so. And I don't know about you, but ANY V8 will get off the line good whether it makes more torque than another or not. Too much and your sitting still spinning your tires. I'd bet my money on Zones car to take out that mini rammed 383 in any 1/8 mile race.

Personally, I'd like to be out ahead of someone past first gear rather than always tell them "I'd have you in the 1/8th mile!"

NY3RDGEN

Im sorry you missed my point. I really do not need a lesson on how intakes work. Im well aware of the short runner design of the MR. I used that example becasue it was brought up earlier in this thread. From what i can tell a well built 383 Mr or HSR or carbed car, Runs about par with a healthy 6.0 LSX with a cam and supporting mods. But like i said, it does it on the top end. That is a fact. Take mw66novas car for Ex, hes in the 11.20's i think. his car ( I think) is pretty much set up for drag racing and track. very light car, nothing but powertrain really, And he hooks the beast. Compare that to the dozen or so fat pig cars in full street trim on here with the , again- 383, AFR, MR OR HSR, well set up cars. There running mid 11's or so.. So i dont reallty see the whole argument that the 6.0 LSX is superior to a well built L98 stroker?? Becasue it is not. That what i quoted in my first post here, And what im trying again to clarify.

Also, Perhaps you should read more than the first paragraph i wrote. Im not hating on the LSX, Just stating some facts for the kiddies here.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

There are a couple things that you kind of negate, a 6.0 can run better than a 383 that doesnt have a unlimited budget with stock heads, and it is 20 less cubes. The 383 WILL make more torque because that is what the extra 20 cubes will be doing.

I have had 383s and the lot. They were fun, but one i had with nasty ported heads and a XE288HR cam trapped 90 MPH, my 6.0 with stock heads and a cam only traps 3 more MPH. That is 1/8th mile, where according to you, the 383 should shine right? And i hate to mention it, but the 383 had a T5 trans and a 10 bolt, as to where the 6.0 i have now has the heavier(50 more pounds) T56 6 speed and the Moser 12 bolt(dont even want to know how much heavier), so the same weight and i am sure the 6.0 could knock down 94 or 95 if it still had a T5 and 10 bolt.

Now, had the 383 been with some Dart 230s or AFR heads and a HUGE cam and compression on the raggedy edge, it might be different, but the fact is, this is comparing 2 of MY own engines that both ran/run on 89 octane.

It is just technology doing its thing. The end result is money, i wanted something i could throw in and if it broke? Oh well, go back to the junk yard and get another. Cannot do that with a 383, too much money and time. I hate down time so i did what i honestly regret not doing a long time ago.

The 15 degree heads are an advantage, not to mention, if i had a set of L92 heads? Or porter 243/799s? Then that would be WAY worse. Hell, another 6.0 i built with a friend traps 96 with a stalled auto with stock heads i touched up a bit. Pretty good for junk yard engines.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

I read your entire post, I assure you. I'm not arguing the fact that SBC's can't be made into monsters because they obviously stood the test of time for 50+ years. Zone said it perfectly though....if you can swap in an LSx, why even bother with a SBC? LSx truck motors are so cheap and build such awesome power and if you break something, your out 500$ on a new engine. If I built a nice 383 and broke it, I'd cry. A lot of people think LSx's are just all top end. The fact is, they just hold the power and torque over the entire powerband rather than just off the line. An LS1 makes more torque than an LT1 stock for stock but everyone will argue that LT1'a are torque monsters since you get the initial down low grunt and then it dies up top. That up top loss never happens with the LSx's.

NY3RDGEN

Yes youre right. If youre 383 had better heads and more Cr. It would have been quit a bit faster.. And yes i agree. Stock LSX heads are insane, and outflow any stock Gen1 head. And there are Gen1 aftermarket heads that outflow stock LSX heads. So, its really comparing apples to oranges.

Question, Is youre 6.0 aluminum? Because i see you brought up the weight issue with the trans and rears.

So, AGAIN. Any Gen1 can be built to make more power than a Gen3 or 4. and vice versa.

At the end of the day SBC, GEN 1,2,3,4 are the greatest... And boost makes them even better.. My build right now is an aluminum Dart 383 with AFR 195 comps, HSR, And a procharger in my 3500+ pd pig.. Im hoping to pull high tens in full, and i mean FULL street trim.

Zone, Youre car rocks dude. Keep putting the hurt on those ricers and blue oval guys..

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Unfortunately, i am running the shittiest 6.0, the iron LQ4, that is the low compression heavy dud, but its cool. Still does work.

I was trying to keep my personal builds apples to apples, since there was not a ton of money in my 383 and just a cam only in my 6.0.

As for boost, my next project is a 5.3 or 6.0 single turbo in my 86 TA, 9s or bust. But it is going to take a while, it will be a stalled auto, instead of the street bruise 6 speed like my 89 RS.

DEATH TO THE OPTI! I hate LT1s, LOL.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

Turbo 5.3 86 trans am huh? I like it! I'm not gunning for 9's but I'm really banking on high 10's once I get that POS 10 bolt out of there and put a 9 inch in. Who knows, with a 2 step, I might break mid 10's even, but it's not a drag car build. It's mainly going to be a street car and weekend roll racer. If only I put some ARP rod bolts in when I put the engine together.....could have spun it higher and run more boost. Oh well, it's only another 600$ junkyard motor away.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Bleh, spinning 7100 out of my 6.0, so a 5.3 with less piston weight will do just as well man.

v10viper04

See that to me sounds like a typical LSx guy. I have seen plenty of LTx F-bodies keeping up with LSx cars stock for stock and mod for mod. Go to LS1tech theres a thread about the fastest stock LTx F-body times and the best stock times are low 13's. And the LTx was replaced b/c newer technology became available, not b/c it was junk. I have a 151,xxx mile Caprice DD with the 4.3L V8 (L99) "Baby LT1" and it still runs great. My friend has a 94' Caprice with the LT1 in it and that 170,xxx miles still going strong on the original OPTI. The optis have a bad rep b/c when one breaks that person makes a huge scene about it b/c its not really easy to fix. (even though its not that bad) I'm not saying the LTx motors are Superior but i am saying that an LT1 CAN run with an LS1.

"A lot of people think LSx's are just all top end. The fact is, they just hold the power and torque over the entire powerband rather than just off the line. An LS1 makes more torque than an LT1 stock for stock but everyone will argue that LT1'a are torque monsters since you get the initial down low grunt and then it dies up top. That up top loss never happens with the LSx's." - whitedevilTA.... I don't agree with that statement. First off the LS1 may make 10 more ft lbs of torque (335 ft lbs.) but it also makes it at 4,000 rpms. The LT1 makes 325 ft lbs at 2400 rpms. The LT1s are torqier then their LS1 counterpart down low(agreed). How does the LS1 make the same number across the powerband when torque comes in at 4k? Also both the LT1 and LS1's max stock hp comes in at 5200 rpms... explain the superiority... I guess i don't understand your logic..... and Zone cubic inches don't make torque, the stroke and cam and other supporting mods determine the torque. Cubes help but you could make a high rpm happy 383 with no low end if it was needed, torque isn't all about the cubic inches.
"The reason Zone was behind in that mustang race was because he smoked his bald drag radials off the line through first and 2nd gear. That looks like torque to me. Not sure where your going with your argument here....."-whitedevilTA... Spinning your tires is not torque, i have NO idea where you got that, my Camaro can burn off my Nitto 555r's with no problem if i wanted to, maybe not through 2nd but it sure spins them into 2nd.

v10viper04

I have nothing against the LSx motors but it gets annoying hearing about how much better they are than the LTx's when they are not. Also sure i would buy an LSx if i could afford to buy one. There are not any LQ4s around here and the only LSx motors are in the 2-3k range. I think cost is comparable and i actually think a sbc is cheaper to build, the parts are very plentiful and cheap. LSx parts are not cheap not to mention LSx motors have more parts (ignition, fuel lines/rails/injectors) and also have to be tuned where a sbc guy doesn't need a computer... just a timing light... if that.. I have a friend about 30 min from me who has had his time with LSx motors and prefers the LTx motors, he is on LS1tech actually. He has had just about everything as well. He's had some VERY VERY nasty LTx's, from N/A to single and twin turbo setups. Its all about how much money someone has.... That's all it is....

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Anything can run well with money. Period, even the LT1. It is nothing special but a spiced up SBC, and yes, the LS engine IS better, no matter how you put it. The heads are better, the lower ends are better, that is just the way it is and arguing that fact, is pointless and a waste of time. The one thing a LT has over the LS is the head bolt configuration, 5 bolts per piston hole holds boost easier, but the GEN IV and what not with the 6 bolt per cylinder fixed that of course.

If i sound like a typical LS guy, whatever, that is cool, but the facts are there, the aftermarket to support LS engines blows the LT engine away so there is an evident winner either way.

Why run a LTx when there are more options for the older SBC? That is what i want to know, because you are in the middle, just being stubborn for no reason. Guess some people are in love with reverse cooling and optisparks i assume. There is no CLEAR reason to choose the middle child. Not to me or anyone else with a sound mind as there is nothing a LTx can do that a SBC cannot other than have a pain in the *** optispark to mess with and more expensive parts.

NY3RDGEN

Arent we supposed to be talking Hon Duh's guys? lol.

Zone I see youre a Mod on LS1Tech, Im kinda active there in a few sections. And i have a question for ya. You have a PM.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Replied,

Oh yea, F them Hondas and the drivers!

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Exactly, anyone that says otherwise is in complete denial or just wants to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. The LTx was a good motor but to think it's the same or better than a LSx is absolutely ridiculous.

v10viper04

A spiced up gen 1 is almost exactly right.... Reverse cooling is a great idea, then you can run more timing while keeping the heads cooler. Without the LT there would be no LS. Maybe stock for stock the LS is better but when it comes to modding your dead wrong. The LS is not "ALWAYS" better. It gets old when ppl have a problem with something and it becomes a piece of junk. Example, the optispark. The opti was designed to go 100k miles before needing to be changed. I have seen that many times myself. And the "lower ends"(not sure exactly what you meant) are not better, they use basically the same parts(cast parts) and the LT1 makes Torque a lot lower than the LS so theoretically an LT1 will pull an LS out of the hole.(which i have also seen many times) I'm not saying the LS doesn't have better aftermarket support, but that doesn't make the engine better... Its newer technology and it popular, just like mustangs. How many companies offer mustang parts? point proven... Saying the LS motors is better without showing good proof is like shooting in the dark. I'm not saying they are worse than LT engines or gen 1's but I don't believe they are that much better if were talking modded engines. Stock it would be LSx/LTx/ then traditional gen 1 sbc, but 'm not really talking stock.

"Why run a LTx when there are more options for the older SBC? That is what i want to know, because you are in the middle, just being stubborn for no reason. Guess some people are in love with reverse cooling and optisparks i assume."- Ok, lets take a look at this statement you made. An Ltx is a sbc with reverse cooling basically so all bottom end parts apply to the LTx the apply to the gen 1 sbc. So more options you can basically rule out. Its not being "stubborn", you see me as being "stubborn" b/c your on the LS highhorse and can't look down at what else is out there.... I'm proving my point and you apparently can't see those points. Also as far as reverse cooling goes its a great idea like i stated, you can run more timing/compression and keep the cylinder temps under control. I've never had an optispark problem and I don't believe i will. I believe optis to be a pretty decent design. Maybe you had a problem with an opti and hated working with it, i have changed an opti before and if you have any mechanical skills at all its not that bad... I'm not trying to step on any toes but if you claim the LS to indeed be better then i would like some solid proof, then i'll believe you.

v10viper04

How exactly does having better aftermarket support make one engine superior to another? Look at mustangs, they have **** engines and have twice the aftermarket support of basically any car out there.... Prove to me how the LSx is better and i'll believe you...

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

First off, I have NEVER heard that one before. What do you propose spins tires then? Hell I could burn the tires on my 90 HP honda if I dropped it from a high enough RPM, but not off the line like a V8 with torque can.

And 2nd, 555R's are crap tires. My old cammed 305 would burn my 275 555R's every time from a low RPM launch, and that was with 285 lbs ft at the wheels. Try some M/T drag radials and then let me know if you still spin them. Tire compound makes a huge difference.

And BTW, LSx vs LTx should not even be an argument. The LTx motors are dying with the 93-97 cars and the LSx is whats hot at the moment. They are better in every way in terms of technology, and thier ECM's are like supercomputers. Any tuning guy you talk to will tell you nothing compares to the LSx ECM. What other junkyard motor can you pull from a pickup truck, slap a cheap turbo on, and go 9's in the 1/4 mile, all for probably 3-4k dollars while having it hold up to pass after pass and not grenade? Not to mention, you'd never get over 400 WHP by simply bolting a cam into an LT1 like you would with an LS1. They just don't repond as well to mods. In the long run, LTx = much more expensive to get same results as LSx. I guarantee if you did a poll, the LSx would get 90% of the votes as a better engine.

Don't get me wrong....at the time, the LT1's were great engines, but they were short lived and replaced quick because GM knew they needed to quit trying to improve a 50 year old design and get with the times. That was the birth of the LS1.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

I quoted the wrong parted of his post and misread it, I thought he was talking about the LSx being superior to the LTx, missed the "aftermarket" part of his statement. I thought he was talking motor to motor.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Look, the fact is, if you are right, then why id the SBC or LS swap WAAAAYYYYY more popular than the LTx swap has or ever will be? Because they are not as good and the aftermarket support SUCKS in comparrison.

Period, i am not trying to be an assshole, but damn, it is the truth, you are evidently hung up on LTx for some reason like so many that cannot move on. Hell, i am so tired of all the same crap complaints and questions that i asked to be removed as a mod on LS1tech from the LTx section. They are an obsolete engine, and as i said, ANYTHING can run with the right money and combo, but the LS does it easier, no one even wants to tune the LT engines anymore, few and far between, most shops wont fool with them. That is a fact. Let me know when they have a 450+ ci version of the LT readily available from several companies and get back to me.

v10viper04

We have established that the LS is way more popular, mainly b/c of the crap the LT gets from LS guys. Its annoying b/c you guys think you are the best thing since sliced bread. I have seen many ppl post asking weather they should go LT or LS and all the guys who own ls's post and talk down on the LT and the LT guys post and then the LS guys basically don't even respond to them. The LT has a good amount of aftermarket support, not as much as the LS but still pretty good. You are so obsessed with LS engines you can't see that anything else can run with an LS engine. Yea in a stock configuration it may make hp easier, but like i said were not talking exactly stock. And cheaper? I really doubt that, have you seen some of the prices for LSx parts? They are outrageous! I can go pick up an LT for $200 all day long. I have never seen an LS1 around here for less than $1500. And your comparing the 4.8 or 5.3 in terms of price when there are not too many ppl that use those motors, the popular swap is the LS1 or higher on the GM motor scale. And how does having a popular motor make it better? That's really your argument? B/c ppl use/buy/mod/swap them more it makes that engine superior? Like i said last time.... Look at the mustang.... I can see that the LS motors are Superior in stock form and can take mods better stock, i'm not arguing that. What i am saying is that a Modded LT1 can run with a modded LS1.... and LS being cheaper could be if both have stock heads, otherwise with LE1/LE2/ or LE3 heads its a toss up. That's the point I'm trying to get across....

tpivette89

Well damn, this thread has gotten way out of hand and completely off topic. I think its time to put it to rest

Viper, dont think that all LSX owners share similar opinions about the LTXs. I own both, and actually prefer the LTX platform. Theres just something about being the "underdog" and the look on LSX owners faces when they get beat by a "crappy, inferior" LTX is awesome

People build what they like and what theyre familiar with, bottom line. Saying one motor is better than another is strictly opinion. Drop that LT1 in your 84' Vette and have a blast. Too bad youre so far away from me, itd be cool to meet up with you at a track and see the car when its done (I love C4s)

v10viper04

The LT motors are not dieing off like you state, they are still being used, modded and swapped into cars. You just don't hear about it as often as the LS swaps. Why are we talking computers? who cares if it has a better computer, the LT computer apparently works just as well as far as the programming goes. The only reason for a more powerful computer is b/c it has newer technology and its controlling a lot more electronic equipment. The LT didn't need a "super computer" to run just fine. And pull a junkyard motor (4.8/5.3 or 6.0 like you stated "truck motor") and put a turbo and 3-4 K into it and run 9's? Looks more like 5-6k with the turbo price/ kit included. Still I have never seen that happen. Also I have never seen a Truck LS or an LS1 make 400whp with just a cam, maybe 400 fwhp, not 400 wheel. I really doubt 400 wheel with just a cam, even with the high flowing LS heads. From what i've seen all over is a mild cam and heads will get them into the mid 400's. I'm aware the LS1 is more efficient at making power but i don't believe its far superior to the LT. I'm not bent on LT motors, but i defend them b/c they ARE a great engine and can make some nasty hp numbers, but LS guys don't want to hear that b/c it makes their LS not much better in their eyes. LS engines are great and i'm not doubting that but an LT can make some damn close numbers. It is kinda funny to talk about 2 GM motors making 400-600hp N/A when a honda boy can only dream of these kinds of N/A numbers. haha Most turbo hondas will never make that much either....

v10viper04

I hear ya, i do love the look on ppls face when you have the underdog motor and you are beating them. haha Most LSx owners are quick to doubt the LT engines. I'm not saying one is superior to another, i'm just proving my point that an LT can run with an LS if built properly. They don't seem to think an LT can run with an LS at all. The LTs are just junk to them. I agree that stock they are mostly inferior but modded they can run with them.

whitedevilTA

iTrader: (8)

This topic has been dragging on forever! I know LTx's are good motors, and for the cheapness thay are a much better motor than just a stock TPI. Unfortunately going back to the computer part, as zone said, no shop will tune them because most don't want to, so when you want to make big power, it's very difficult.

As far as cam only LS1's making over 400 rwhp, trust me there have been plenty built. Check out LS1tech and you will see many guys have achieved that number with a cam only (with supporting bolt on's of course) set up. A heads/cam LS1 will ussually be around the 430-450 rwhp mark. It's all in the set up. Pick your components right, and that power number is achievable. And for the turbo truck motor running 9's for $3k, there was a guy on LS1 tech that did it all for around $3500 and he went 9's in a ford fairmont. His names Parish if you want to search him on there. It can be done for next to nothing with some know-how and self fabrication. Hell I only have about $1000 so far into my turbo components and all I need is a BOV, intercooler, and piping to fab up and then thats it. I can easily see my entire turbo set up costing roughly $1800 for everything. And thats with name brand stuff, not cheap ebay parts.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

So, im obsessed and cannot see anything running with it? Did i not post that anything can run with it with enough money?

Look man, the way i see it, YOU are obsessed with the LTx platform that YOU cannot get past the fact they are out dated and are inferior. Not by much, but face it:

Mod a LTx engine and get 296 cubes, have an iron block and run damn good

Mod a LS1, get 427 cubes, have aluminum and go even faster.

A LT1 cannot do that. That simple, then there are engines that are already starting with more cubes, 6.0, 6.2, 7.0 and so on.

We scored a 6.0 for 300$, LQ9 engine, so as for not getting LS blah blah for blah blah, i really dont even care for the LS1, the 6.0 and better is where itis at, i dont need to stroke and bore one unless i want 408 or more cubes.

The reason people install LS engines is not a popularity contest, it is the ease of power and lack of needing heads ect.

Cam only LS1 cars make over 400 to the ground, any LT1 do that? I have not seen any, then there are heads and the lot that bump up even higher.

There is no info out there that shows a LT engine being better, the heads are not on par with the LS and that is akey factor that hold them back.

When it also comes to using GEN III and IV parts, you cannot touch a LSx with a ten foot pole with the LTx, the 6.2 are making up to 500 RWHP with cam and bolt ons, SHAMES the LT engine

So, with technology alone, the LT engine is just that, a thing of the past.

Fact is, a SBC and a LSX platform have both gone faster than the LT platform.

Sorry, but you are wasting your time defending the engine you love. Ant stating the aftermarket for the LS is just a bit better? Shows you are delusional.

400 RWHP is the norm for a cam and bolt on LS engine.

v10viper04

Finally you admit the LTx is outdated and inferior but not by much. Sure the LS have the aftermarket support and the "super computer" but that's not everything.
1.) The LS have better flowing factory heads, On the other hand the LT heads can be ported and made to flow just about as much.
2.) Both engines have computers to do what they need to do and nothing more.(O and whitedevilTA idk where you got the idea that the computer holds the LT back... It obviously does not)
3.) I'm not saying the LS is not more popular b/c it is, why do you think there is a 427 LS and lots of aftermarket blocks for the LS series. There was a company making a big block LT but it was shelved years ago( not exactly sure why, maybe b/c of lack of interest)
4.)"The reason people install LS engines is not a popularity contest, it is the ease of power and lack of needing heads ect."- True, LSx motors are the way of the future, and also b/c LS owners trash talk LT's. O and most LS owners do heads anyways and also the aftermarket support helps too.
5.)"Cam only LS1 cars make over 400 to the ground, any LT1 do that? I have not seen any, then there are heads and the lot that bump up even higher."- Again i was not talking stock, any engine that's newer is usually making more hp then the older engine it replaced. WhitedevilTA stated that LS's on heads /cam/ and accompanying mods make power in the 400's. LT's with heads/cam/ and accompanying mods will be in the 400's as well....
6.)"When it also comes to using GEN III and IV parts, you cannot touch a LSx with a ten foot pole with the LTx, the 6.2 are making up to 500 RWHP with cam and bolt ons, SHAMES the LT engine"- You also talking more factory cubes, that IS an advantage to the LS platform.
7.)"Fact is, a SBC and a LSX platform have both gone faster than the LT platform."- You cannot claim that as a fact b/c i know as a fact that you don't know that... The LT has the same heads(design) and bottom end as the sbc but its more efficient so how has the gen 1 gone faster? Seems to me you like trashing the LT motors and won't see that an LT can be just as great as an LS1. Maybe not comparable to an LS3 or bigger but that's like comparing a 454 to a 305. I can see the LS platforms advantages but if were talking modded LS1 vs modded LT1 (which is what the discussion started out as) then the LT is not very far behind.
8.) "Sorry, but you are wasting your time defending the engine you love. Ant stating the aftermarket for the LS is just a bit better? Shows you are delusional."- You wasting you time trashing LT's. I'm going to defend LT's against ppl who trash them and say they are far inferior which you originally said and now are saying only a little bit.
9.) you boys also talk a lot about boost, that shouldn't be brought up b/c just about any chevy V8 can potentially make over 1000hp with boost.
10.) Optis are not junk like you state, the intake design does not have to be ported until you want 500whp. Nobody hardly ever messes with the stock LT intake b/c it flows very well. Don't all you LS guys change your intakes b/c they are restrictive?

Again like i have already stated, the LS platform can be superior to the LT platform stock and usually is modded, BUT an LT built right can hang with an LS. That i WILL stand by. You keep bringing up how much better an LS is with just a cam, good for the LS motors, that i will agree is better. But not too many ppl who mod leave the heads stock, and that brings the LT back into the fight. Again I'm not trying to make any of you mad. Just proving my points...

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I am comparing LTx to LSx, nothing in particular, just the platform. And one platform blows the other away. and "hanging" with the LS engine is not good enough. The fact remains it is not as good. Never will be.

And yes, i look at allot of times and see how far the SBC, LTx and LSx platforms are pushed and the LTx comes in last. Lack of aftermarket support hinders the ability. It is life, people have been building the SBC WAY longer and the LS is just light years ahead and can do crazy shiit with stock parts, which the SBC and LT engines cannot do.

v10viper04

Prove the LT is "light years" behind. You claim it but i have yet to see proof. Aftermarket support does not hinder the LTx in the performance category. Why are there 600hp LTxs out there then? If ythe aftermarket is crap then it would be impossible to make that kind of power wouldn't it? I have seen plenty LT1 motors beat similarly modded LS1 motors. Fact is that you are too blind to see the LT can be just as good. Like i stated its not comparable to a big block LS or probably even a 6.2 LS but an LS1 and LT1 are certainly comparable. You feel the LT is such a worthless motor that you refuse to believe it can run with your "touched by the hand of god" LSx motors. AGAIN also like i stated the LT and sbc share the SAME BOTTOM END and HEAD STYLE. Do you not understand that? The LT1 intake does not need to be modded until your close to 500hp, the only things that need upgrading then are the same things an LS would need, fuel, ignition(not necessary) and a throttle body. So therefore its ability is not hindered, Idk where your getting your information. The LTx is just as capable of making power as the sbc, even more so b/c its a lot more efficient and computer controlled. Also you keep bringing up stock vs stock which i have said numerous times the LS IS better stock. Do you have anything else? The stock vs stock factor is now old...

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

If you are comparing a LS1 to a LT1, fully modded, the LS1 will walk the LT1, it will make more cubes, more power and less weight. Now, stock cubes for stock cubes, stock ported head for stock ported heads, supporting cam and bolt ons, there are bone stock long block LS1 cars in the 10.4x range all motor. I have not seen a LT1 get that fast. Show me. Not to mention, that 10.4x was with unported heads.

Otherwise, i am comparing platforms, nit specific engines.

The LS platform is ahead by a long shot. A tune alone on the GEN III/IV opens a lot of power by itself, i have seen both, built both and the LT1 was just a disappointment for me. I am not just down talking an engine i know nothing about.

And the same bottom end for the SBC and LT is the same , duh, but the aftermarket for the SBC blows the LT1 away with heads and what not. There is a reason they mod SBC heads to work on LT1s, the heads are better for the SBC. Once again the LT1 has a limited aftermarket.

You wanna see what the LS1 can do, i will show you and you show me what a LT1 can do:

9)Ls1Joe 8.86@154 All Motor

13)TXCAMSS 9.39@141mph (ALL MOTOR/93 Pump gas)

16)Texas Speed & Performance 9.66 @ 131mph (Stock Bottom End LS1, NA)

17)Jay Johnson 9.77 @ 134mph (ALL MOTOR)

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/texas-...ickest-et.html

#9 is a 6.0 iron block with a stoker crank, that is a 4 inch bore like the LT1 with extra stroke, then you have the others, running the 3.9 bore, thats right, a smaller bore that means the heads cannot glow as well as the LT1 with heads running HARD.

Show me some LT1s that are cranking out times like that.

v10viper04

Man i guess your right. The aftermarket support really limits the LTx engines... right... Heres a quote from LS1tech "The LTx on this forum is always placed as an underdog, but THIS underdog can and will sure put up a good fight and win if guys build them right"- from an LS1 vs LT1 thread... This "discussion" is worthless, you refuse to believe an LT1 can run with an LS1 so why should i keep talking to you. Also how many ppl you know are running 7-9 sec 1/4 mile times on a street car? Most ppl i know are running heads/cam engines. Not all out race cars... But an all out LT1 built right can run very very close to LSx times. But on a normal DD street car it's a different story. I don't actually think you have built an LT1 before, either that or you built it like shiit. Quite a few ppl on LS1tech are in the 450-500 rwhp on LT1s. Look around and maybe you'll see. As far as I'm concerned both engines have their advantages. LS1 has better flowing stock heads, LT1 has a better flowing stock intake, LS1 has better aftermarket support, LT1 has enough of an aftermarket to make big numbers.(not to mention Dart has been close to making a 427 LTx/ who knows whats going on with that.) LT1 has better low end torque, LS1 has better top end.(by a little bit) Also you talk about ppl using sbc heads on LT1's? I have never actually seen that happen but it's not really needed. AI and Lloyd Elliot port the heads that all LTx guys that want to make power use. Not to mention there are Edelbrock heads, AFR, Trickflow, etc. Most of the biggest companies make quite a bunch of parts for the LTx motors. I wouldn't say they are limited by aftermarket support. Also where are you getting all these random numbers of stock LS1 engines in the 10's? I would like to see proof of this... Might as well say both engines have advantages and end this discussion. But i know you will not rest until you grind the LTx reputation into the ground... But its worthless talking to you so I'm done.... I proved my points, and you have yours.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Ok, whaever floats your boat. I told you stock for stock and all that, and i broke down to you platform VS platform the LT holds nothing to the LS, but LS1 to LT1 engine in particular MAXED out the LT1 cannot beat the LS, but stock cube for stock cube, the LS is running HARD.

You want to quote stuff from Tech but not look and dig and see there are MANY LS1s in the 10s all motor.

These are just 6 speed cars, not even automatics:

10.32 @ 132.35 - 1.43 - Cartek ---------- 346 ---- N/A ------------- 3300 - WS6TransAm01

10.37 @ 132.70 - 1.47 - Spec Stage 4 --- 346 ---- N/A --- --------- 3400 - Torkman15

10.82 @ 126.90 - 1.47 - Textralia OZ700 - 346 ---- N/A ------------- 3470 -- GrannySShifting

10.98 @ 126.12 - 1.60 - Spec Twin ------ 346 ---- N/A ------------- 3340 - SuperSix

10.98 @ 126.00 - 1.57 - CARTEK --------- 346 ---- N/A -------------- 3528 - SickSS228

10.99 @ 126.93 - 1.49 - Lingenfelter ----- 346 ---- N/A ------------- 3200 - Demonicbird00

I just would like you to show me, thats all. I am not saying the LT1 does run, just that it does not run as well. Seems you keep ignoring the fact i said anything can run with enough money. The LT1 is not a bad engine, i just think they are a pain in the ****.

They are an inferior engine, not by a long shot, they just are.


F hondas.(back on topic)

TACGNOL

Eh, its just that there are two kinds of cars out there: cars with LSx motors, and cars that are slow. Its simple really.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Hahhahahaa. Pretty funny, i have seen a couple LS1 swapped Skylines, but never a LT1 swapped allot and that, just not the engine to use. For a reason, LOL.

v10viper04

I do agree that ALL OUT the LSx is superior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z11oBZdlPPM That LTx is running a 100 shot and i guess has been having trouble with traction as well. As far as the street/DD goes the LTx has just as much potential to be as fast or faster. Again, how many ppl you know are running lower than 10's on a street car? They are usually trailer queens... Point taken but both motors have their advantages. And yes F**ck hondas..... And again ppl are driven away from LTs b/c ppl give them a bad rep despite never owning one or not knowing anything about them....

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Yea, but like i mentioned bro, ALLOT of shops wont even work on them. They hate/refuse. Not only because they are rigged to hell by punk **** kids, but they are seen as a waste of time and do not even specialize in them since the LS cam out. They can run, but i have not seen any that run as good as the old SBC and LS, close though, but allot of money.

Can you imagine, i give my SBC buddies and LT1 buddies hell for not going LS because they make so much power for cheap and the LS1 friends give me shiit for being carbed, but they all happen to be looking at my tail lights unless they are 383/408 and what not. LOL

v10viper04

Idk where you get the idea a sbc can run better than an LT1... That doesn't even make sense. The LT1 is an updated sbc, how can it not run better? LT1's have more potential. You apparently have not looked around too much. LS engines are also not cheap, maybe where you live but everywhere else in the world LS engines are off the charts for price. Apparently your buddies don't have LT1s built worth a shiit either. I have never seen a shop refuse an LT1, that's just ridiculous to claim...

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

So the LT1's automatically run better than a Gen 1 SBC because it's updated and has more potential but that same logic can't apply to the LS1?

Dude, you're such a LT1 fanboi it makes Jesus cry. I've been around all 3 Gens, owned them and let me tell you, the LT1 IS a good motor but the LS1 trumps it in just about every way. The LS1 is more powerful stock and responds great to mods. Show me a cam only w/bolt ons LT1 running 10's, isn't happening.

So dude, just stop. No one is ******* the LT1, no one said it sucks but just because someone says the LS1 is better doesn't mean they're arrogant LS1 owners. You're acting all butt-hurt over an opinion that supported with actual track times and real world data.

A love my TPI motor, it's an absolute blast to drive and it's fast for what it is, I've laid the smack down on plenty of LS1's but lets face facts, I could run similar times with a bolt on LS1 and get about 9 more miles to the gallon....the fact is the LSx motors are above and beyond Gen 1 and 2 motors.

If that makes me a LT1 hater then so be it.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Where the heck do you get the idea that shops won't "Tune" a LT1. The LT1 is far EASIER to tune. Aside from 93's its a Flashable PCM. LS1's have a better PCM yet, but the PCM in a LT1 is pretty easy to tune.

I've seen tons of shops work on LT1 and LS1's, but hardly any offer tuning for thirdgen EFI systems (except the TTA).

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, we get ****ed with a spiked bat on that

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

There are shops in Houston here, that wont touch them. I have buddies and i have owned LT1s and they refuse to put their hands on them, asides from the lack of interest in the customers wanting the LT1s, there ARE shops that will tune/work on them, but the high end reputable shops wont. Just facts for Houston based performance shops.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Stock for stock, most LT1s will run better than the SBC, but the aftermarket support blows the LT1 away once again man. 18* heads, HUGE optons for top ends ect. Not to mention you can get a 472 ci small block, thats right, once again the LTx cannot touch the SBC as well as the LS platform.

And yes, a carbed LS is VERY cheap, i give the EFI LS guys shiit all day because my car is WAY cheaper to build and tune. The Vic Jr intake out flows all the EFI intakes till they spend 1500$ or more.

As i stated in the above post, the high end shops here wont touch LT engines.

As for LT engines that run worth a shiit, the fact is, they have to have more money that most want to spend for them to really run. I can get a set of heads ported for 600$ locally that will flow over 300, so if that is cheap then yea, that is just part of making the LS engines run HARD. 6.0 engines go for 700-1000$ for the cathedral head versions, if that is cheap, then yea, locally these are the prices i get to deal with, 2 LS1s just sold on CL for 800 a piece for the long blocks as well, i dont know what your prices look like but Houston is kind og the LS world in Texas, not to mention the rest of Texas itself. Some prices can go higher depending on WHO the seller is, but they end up sitting on their parts forever.

So, i guess i give up on you, the technology to support the SBC and LS are above and beyond the LT1, nothing you can do about it, the LT1 can hang with a mid built LS, but a fill blown LS engine kills the LT, technology and aftermarket support are the major blows.

F**k honda.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Still waiting on you to show me some cars that run as hard as the ones i posted as well, you showed 1 that runs good, but people lie about nitrous jetting and i am sure that LT1 was a stroked up engine, find some NA cars anyway

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

Odd, most performance shops around here don't have any issues tuning them. They're not really that hard to tune...maybe they don't want to spend the $$$ on the programming???

zachkuby87

I'm not a huge fan of the lt 1 but a few guys here try to make it sound like a pos which is not true at all there are a lot of ppl here in the twin cities using lt 1 motors and they can hold there own against most n/a for n/a so I don't get why they're so inferior. Why no aftermarket? Bull **** not as big of a market but still plenty there to get the job done..... and zone I want names and numbers of these shopsthat refuse to touch an lt1 cause that's just unheard of an rediculous I know a few shop owners and it'll be a cold day in hell before they turn down money... harder work charge more money its that simple.

Now that I think of it look through this thread I posted pics of my buddies porsche that's running an lt1 and he has no problem whatsoever waxing most lsx motored cars and its his dd

NY3RDGEN

What he's saying is. If youre building a performance based small block for something. A GEN1 SBC has just about every option in the world. From 25xci's to almost 500ci's and practically thousands of head and cam options. And a million options for intakes, from TPI based ones, to carbed and custom fabricated sheet metal, converted single plains, ect.. With LTX youre limited to 350-396 ci's. And no where near the SBC options as far as H/C/I's all go.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

^^^ Thank you.