Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah real fair. 6 spd vs automatic. Go look up the fastest bolt on coyote and then the fastest 5th gen bolt on ss. Not even close

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

That is a screamer, joe who once owned 6 speed inc was running a 402 I think LS, screaming like that, but it was a high compression race car, still impressed with 8.6 seconds and a manual Trans.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Not to mention, the auto did respectable, a 5th gen with an auto? Turd.

ash_cool

just want to join in here. shut down a 02 4.6 stang monday owned by this kid i work with. he has been talking so much b.s. that i had to pull my ta out of the garage and show him. beat him by 1 1/2 cars. he has not talked to me all day. ( kind of enjoyed it.)

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

You beat him with the 5 liter? That would be shamefull, but fr some reason I have seen some run damn well for a 305.

brando54009

yea thats mainly what I'm talkin' about. i have a problem with those sheeple. its like "omg i need to copy everything to be just like him!!!!!!!!" i have heard too many of my fellow club members talk about how they need to buy the same parts as that guy so they can be "fast like him". then i talk to this certain man and he tells me he hates all of them because of how they act.

I've also found that they are about as bad as the Honda crowd with having to have a certain part just because it prestigious

big hammer

i know hey? not to mention the guy in the 5.0 actually knew to drop it into gear manually to avoid lag, and the auto 5.0 has better racing ratios than the 6 speed camaro. but whatever.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Auto does have good ratios but its not the same as a 6 spd car either way you slice it.

Since you dont want to look the information up, here's what I have found

Fastest bolt on only 5.0 new 2011-2013 stangs..... 10.88 at 125.6mph
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...ual-5-0-a.html

Fastest bolt on only 2010-2013 camaro SS.........11.6 at 119.x mph

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52264


At the drag strip where most of us race, the 5.0 is a superior car but it does have the weight advantage just like the mustang always had over the camaros.

But those cars with a tune and some bolt ons can make 430's whp...which is just as much as a 6.2L LS3 motor which makes 430-440s whp with bolt ons and tune. SImilar power and less weight the 5.0 is a faster car. Many of those guys deep 12's high 11's with simple mods.

big hammer

it's amazing how they haven't beat the fastest bolt on ls1 cars yet. i'm sure it will happen eventually.

the 5.0 isn't a superior engine. it's just in a better drag platform. lighter and solid axle. it's just plain harder to get the camaro to run a really good 60'.

the mustang is also an OLD platform with a new engine and trans. there are thousands of race proven parts sitting on the shelves for these cars. the camaro was all new in 2010.

i'm holding out for the next gen when it's built on the lighter platform. even the zl1 has been disappointing. there are ones running 111-113 mph. wtf is that?

big hammer

and as or the auto thing--- wake up guys. this isn's your old th700's anymore. the 6 spd auto mustang has the ratios 1st. 4.17. 2nd. 2.34. 3rd. 1.52. 4th. 1.14. through a converter and 3:15 rears. compare that to the old 4 speeds you're used to with 3.06:1, 1.63:1, 1:1 through a set of 2:73's.

cuisinartvette

The Mustang underpinnings have changed a LOT. They can handle real damn good. Drive on sometime youd be surprised it isnt like driving the 90something GTs. They have come a long way. Id take one!

Dont get all the hate on the Mustangs? They are not hot rods too?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It may not be superior engine but how do you classify it? I feel it is superior in tech and power per cube. Gm has more cubes and more hp potential to a point, but there has been a 318" coyote making 550whp n/a and running 9's. Thats 1.73 hp per cube at the tires. An ls3 would have to do 640 or so to match that and i have never seen one come close to that!

You cant deny the coyotes design. Its a very well built modular ohc motor. Ford did well

Mod motor may not have the old fbody bolt on numbers beat but its damn close. 4th gens are as light if not lighter than the 5.0 mods and a better drag platform than 5th gens. So it makes sense the ls1 cars are fast too but they are not making the hp the coyote does

big hammer

hp\cube is ***** math. the 5.0 is finally a good engine by ford, but i would rather take the ls3 in a lighter platform than what it is in now.

big hammer

here's the ratios for the tr6060 in the camaro

1st: 3.01
2nd: 2.07
3rd: 1.43
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.84
6th: 0.57

the auto 5.0 clearly has the gearing advantage from a roll. but the camaro won. also the 13 camaro has had several notable improvements since it was released in 2010.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hp per cube is the single greatest measurement of a n/a engines potential..its not ***** math.

I see no point in arguing this any further

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I have seen low dyno numbers run hard, so I believe a chassis dyno is only for tuning.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yes a dyno is only for tuning but physics will show that xxx hp will run yyy.yy mph at zzzz lbs weight at the track. An engine that runs faster 1/4 mile in the same vehicle weight should have more power providing the gearing is same. Now there are tons of variables between cars out there but if you had one drag car and 2 motors, both inserted into the car running same gears/tranny, and motor A went faster than B, then theres more power available. Dyno's just help measure that power, so comparing 2 motors at same time on same dyno will show the differences in power. The more average power in the actual driven rpm band will run faster down the track. Again lots of variables to look at but the basics are there.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

That's all obvious, but there are no equal cars, gearing and tire size mixes all that up. Cannot tell what you already know.

kmcn47

hmmmm.....one word, copo

big hammer

hp and torque is the greatest measurement of any engine. hp\cube is rycer math.

big hammer

not even close to street legal. and we don't even know how fast they are yet!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

So you are saying the pro stock natural aspirated engine builder teams running some of the highest hp per cubic inch numbers out there today are meaningless and are rycers? Because being limited to 500 cubes, and having to figure out how to extract as much hp as possible from that, and being the forefront of engine building technology and science, in order to win their class event is not impressive and is worthless/meaningless.

By the same logic a 350 making 500 hp is no more impressive than a 427 making 500 hp? A nascar all motor 358 making 850 hp is not as impressive than my 400 on twin turbos making same 850?

Get real

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Looking at the ARAO heads, not alloy of solid data backing those heads, anyone have some good info that supports their aims?

big hammer

normally i would just facepalm this, but i'm bored.

we're not talking about cubic inch limits and racing classes. were talking about the 6.2 vs the 5.0.

yes, saying the 5.0 is more impressive because of less cubes is definately rycer math to the extreme. the 5.0 revs higher to get it's hp, and the 6.2 does it through torque. pick your poison.

as for a 350 making 500hp being more impressive than a 427 making 500 hp. not even close. you need the best of the most expensive parts and high octane fuel to make an sbc 350 scream to 500 hp. a 427 could do it on ported stock castings and 87-91 octane, and have wayyyy better street manners. the 427 is more impressive.

cuisinartvette

ARAO is right down the street from me they have been there forever.
Thier latest revised heads make good power thats typical of 4v heads though.
Not for light pockets though they arent cheap. Dont need much cam to make them run

Z28FAST1

Everything with that guy is ri cer math lol!!!!

The only reason there is so much hype behind the Coyote 5.0 is because 1.) the 5th gen is so damn heavy and
2.) Ford's N/A 2V, 3V and 4V engine got there heads kicked in by the LTx/LSx for over a decade.

Ford's last resort was to supercharge its Termi's to beat the LSx.

I'm glad Ford stepped up but not really impressed since there have been bolt on Fbody's in the 10's for over a decade with old 1997 technology

Now the new Shelby is a different story.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Wow we clearly are on opposite spectrums when it comes to building engines. To the same arguement we are not discussing pump gas street manner builds either. We are talking power production. A motors ability to make hp is the measure of how good a performance motor is. Doing more with less cubes shows engine build skills and more efficient motors. An 18 deg 360" motor will be more efficient at making power than a 23 deg motor. Hence the ls1's production. You clearly dont get it. I am not even going to bother discussing this any further. Like talking to a wall

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You may be the king of not getting engine theory. As far as the old potential we discussed, you see the guy who ran 11's with cam only 350 vortec motor? Guess what? I helped pick the cam for that combo and said it would have a shot at 11's. Like i thought it went 11.9's and has more left in it. So next time you question my "rycer" math just keep in mind the actual real results.
Enjoy arguing

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

this thread reminds me why i don't come into this particular board much....

big hammer

that's fine. but next time you lose to someone with a bigger motor, you can throw the fact in his face that you make more hp\ltr. honda guys love it.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

the hp/ci argument has little to do with winning, but rather overall power potential.

you're not getting it

kmcn47

seems like people only post when there either pissed about something, or so jaded about all the bs threads and arguments they've seen that they no longer care (you, and alot of others) lol

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

yup. at least in the organized drag racing board, we send cars down the track instead of talking about who thinks they might have the fastest car at work or something dumb like that. what can i say, i'm a doer.

kmcn47

hands on, best way to learn

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I have been posting here because it is something to do, I try not to stir crap, then I post some troll comment I know will get responses and it works every time, I don't know why I cannot resist...

84firebird383

I thougth better of what I wanted to say. There is a place for this forum on Thirdgen.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Not necessarily. Rotaries are far more efficient at making power per displacement, but not at making power per gallon of fuel. Terrible gas mileage and emissions from the rotary engine cars.

Overhead cam engines will and SHOULD make more power than pushrod engines, but pushrod engines can be lighter, smaller, and larger in displacement at the same time than an equivalent overhead cam engine.

HP/Liter is pointless. Lets talk about horsepower per lb of engine. That's far more relevant. The fact that pushrod engines are so compact for their displacement IS a type of efficiency.

If we are talking a racing series with a displacement limit where OHC designs are legal, then volumetric efficiency will always be the primary goal, and there really is no place for a pushrod engine in that paradigm anymore. But not many of us are in a competitive environment with a displacement limit, so, again, horsepower per liter is again irrelevant to pretty much anything beyond bragging rights.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Does that include all pushrods engines or exclude those with 4 valves per cylinder?

Z28FAST1

You win. Don't know why I even bother disagreeing with someone that has reached deity status online with 16,000+ posts

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Post count has nothing to do with anything.... you trolled the TPI thread asking for 400whp cars and some were shown and you continued to disbelieve. I gave you information on how to build it and yet you still doubted the information. YOu trolled here and any other LSx thread. Thats all you are good for, your posts show that and why I will no longer deal with you. Good day sir

You are missing the point entirely as well. There is a place for power per cube. I"m not talking fuel efficiency or size /space efficiency. Thats irrelevant to the topic at hand. We were comparing the 5.0 ford to the GM LS motors, particularly the 6.2 LS3/L99 stuff in the power production category. For a street car, more cubes makes sense because you can make power without having to rev high and thus will have more torque....but to compare the motors in a power production only contest, it is far more impressive to MOST builders to see higher hp per displacement. Now its harder to compare different engine families and types but still can be used to show the capability of the design.

It has nothing to do with streetability, size, fuel consumption although having lower bsfc for the power is always a good thing.

You say volumetric efficiency is the primary goal.....EXACTLY! Guess what VE translates too? More power!! A 355 sbc with higher VE will have more power when looking at similar components. The upper echelon of n/a builidng is pro stock and they are in the 120% ranges in VE. That is IMPRESSIVE. One doesnt just slap parts together and achieve that.

SO yes it can be somewhat "bragging" rights to show that you've made so much power with so little displacement. On the street it may be irrevelant because 500hp is 500hp anyway you slice it...if you want a small aggressive little motor or large tame mild motor for your street car is your preference......but the fact remains the little motor putting out the big numbers is the more impressive build

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

If you're talking about the same family of engines, or even the same basic architecture, then comparing hp/cube is a perfectly valid and useful metric. No arguments from me on that front. I just think in the big picture it becomes irrelevant in a hurry unless we are talking organized competition.

I was responding more or less to this:

So again, an OHC motor SHOULD make more power per cube and the LS engines are still more than competitive by any other metric. Just saying that hp/cube is a pointless comparison stat unless you're comparing engines with very, very similar if not identical architectures because there are so many other factors that play into creating a "good" engine. Is a 250cc two-stroke dirtbike engine a far better engine than the LS engine because it makes 45hp out of 15 cubic inches? No... it's not. But you're a smart guy Im sure you understand this, but I just wanted to clarify what it was I was trying to say and why.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I must say, hp per cube does kind of seem flawed, torque is what dominates most races, and bigger cubes win the torque game.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

1. If torque dominated races, diesels would be the best racing engines
2. Horsepower is a product of torque and RPM's. Torque is one component of horsepower. Horsepower wins races, period.
3. If torque wins over horsepower, it's because the vehicle wasn't geared properly to keep the engine in its operating range.

kmcn47

audi r8s and r10s use deisel engines and they all but dominate le mans racing

last time i checked anyways

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

The rules were rewritten to allow them to be competitive. It was good for the sport and Audi to have any kind of innovative engine in there, especially when they could brand it as "environmentally friendly" and push the clean diesel aspect of it. And Audi wouldn't have bothered developing it if the rules hadn't been rewritten to allow them to be competitive. There's a reason almost no one uses diesels for racing purposes, they're just not well suited for it.

They had to rewrite the rules to allow for large displacements AND turbochargers, because that's the only way those diesels could make enough horsepower to be worth racing. They're RPM limited (much like a TPI engine) so the only way they can make more horsepower is to pump more air into them, and that's where the turbochargers would come in. If they allowed the Corvette C6R's to run twin turbo chargers they'd probably mop the floor with the R10 TDI's even though the R10's are sports prototypes and the Corvettes are GT2 class.

The R10 TDI 5.5 liter V12 weighs about 450 lbs, and this is a exotic, highly developed racing engine. The Judd 5.5L V10 it beats is 300 lbs, and of course, naturally aspirated. How fair is that really that a diesel can be the same displacement, but it's allowed to have turbos? Regardless, thats what it takes to let the diesels win.

(power numbers are with restrictors)
Judd GV5 V10: 5.5 liters, 300 lbs, 600hp
Audi R10 TDI V12: 5.5 liters, 450 lbs, 650hp (with twin turbos)

kmcn47

my best friend is madly in love with corvette racing, i know alllllll about the c5r and c6r the restrictions on them get worse every year

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

And to be clear I think it's cool the diesels are racing and I think the regs are relatively fair, but the fact is that the diesel platform for a racing engine requires certain special exceptions for it to be competitive with gasoline engines. Diesels are great at certain things, a LOT of things actually, it's just that car racing is one of the things to which they are least suited.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Seem allot of cars and trucks make hp and tq numbers be irrealative it seems, some make no tq but allot of hp, so I have never found a way for hp and tq to be truly relative. You may have some formula but I do not. Many rides gain tq but lose hp from mods, and visa versa, results vary for every build as you know. Just nothing I can make the two truly relate as far as xxx tq will make or allow xxx hp.

vwdave

"Can I beat a GT500 with my L03 if I put $3k into it?"

"What is faster? My _______ or a base model Suzuki"

This forum is where the neckbeards hang out.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

U jus a haitr becuss u no runz teh hawnduz liek uh prohh skreet racr brahh.