irocuroc

Maybe this formula will help
Rc engineering uses cc/Min divided by 10.5 equals lbs per hour. So that injector according to rc is 24.36 lbs.. south bay how do you figure your lbs per hour? And how come your 19 and 22 advertised are at the correct data.. Seems the 27 is not something you researched or really tested, looks like you decided to sell a 27 and get some sales. Just don't understand how all the stuff on your website is at the proper flow rates except these. So the story of the mis calibrated machine sits more as an excuse with me.. I for one am suspect on that lame excuse.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

FWIW, just like a scale in a deli, or gas station pump, it is common practice to check the calibration of our machines on the regular basis.

southbay08

Thanks ray jr...we try to learn from all different experiences beit ours or someonelses.
In response to your question irocuroc,, we use the same exact formula that RC uses. In another post you said that i never say "I don't know"...well now i am. Trust me I AM JUST AS CONFUSED AS EVERYONE ELSE! What is more confusing is that we have been advertising and selling these injectors as 27lb for three years and everyone of our customers have been extremely happy them. You would think if there is an issue with performance or any other problem that someone would have brought it to our attention or complained about it. .
I am not the one who made the "lame" excuse about the miscalibrated machine. We calibrate our machines on a regular basis and we use the recomended calibration fluid from ASNU. We calibrated the machine last night and it was dead on.
We have purchased a few thousand of these injectors both new and cores and every single one of them has had the same flow rate... why??? Right now, i don't have the slightest freaking clue! But i intend to get to the bottom of this and when i do i will be more than happy to share the info with everyone.

70cc at 15 sec multiplied by 4 = 280cc divided by 10.4 = 26.9lb @ 43.5psi

www.southbayfuelinjectors.com

texascat2

True professional!

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

i wouldnt worry about it to much ... if you sold plenty of 27lbs. injectors over a 3 year period and nobody has complained or hurt anything then they gotta be pretty close ..

southbay08

truthfully that is one of the things that is blowing my mind. We shall see....

irocuroc

What you are missing is the way to measure injectors, from what I read and know a manufacturer like gm when selecting injectors is looking for flow to meet the demand of the engine at 80% of the injectors capability. Hence duty cycle. So if an engine bsfc calculates it needs 24lbs then it needs an injector that flows 256 cc in a min or 24lbs pet hour. So what's happening when the flow bench is run static the dead time is not calculated because it is steadily opened. So yes it will flow more, if you would flow your injectors at les 80% duty cycle you will see mathematically that every time the injector closes there is no flow for that time it's off (or dead) so over a period of an hour the oscilloscope can be used to show this time of no flow. Once these numbers are known a injector can be properly rated as no engine runs injectors at static. Why the engines that you sold these for do not run bad is simple. The duty cycle is around 95%. the problem is if the engine they are in is demanding more fuel and the injector maxes out, that particular engine could go lean for a short time while it's in full demand. If the BLM maxes out to 160 it will not be able to provide more fuel and that could be very serious. I hope this helps, you really didn't even realize this as it's kinda over everyone head when just selling injectors etc. So, my advise is to take a little lesson on how an engine demands fuel, and how it affects injector sizing. You might want to recall all those 27's as they are 24's. Or at worst whomever does have them initiate a tune fix and get the computers programmed for the right constant

southbay08

i truely appreciate the information, thank you. I can only go by what our machines tell us. I need more info because something just does not make sense, it can't be that only one injector is affected by this when we flow every one of our injectors the same way.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I'm not trying to give you a hard time here. Are you sure it's just that one injector? I suspect that all of your injectors are off. It would be good to pull some at random and have them validated by a third party on a different flow bench.

I wouldn't accept there's exception if it were me. There's a global problem.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

I probably shouldn't be posting in here, but this does sound like an interesting mystery.

It does seem unfortunate that there appears to be some paranoid type bashing going on that goes far beyond innocent questioning. I am all for questioning though, and it is always best to get the most factual information out there as possible.

My observation is that the difference between the claimed 27 lb/hr and the claimed 24 lb/hr rating is only 12.5%.
This difference does not correlate directly to the difference between 80% DC and static testing, though the actual flow difference could very well approximate 12.5% difference. Because of the inertial quality of liquid fuel the flow rate doesn't stay linear at the limits of IDC.

One point that I think important is that a 12.5% difference in fuel flow isn't really something to **** your pants about.

Only a beginning tuner would trust that actual AFR would equate to commanded AFR just because your injector flow rating and pressure match your injector constant or table. There are far too many variables involved in most performance builds to assume such a thing.

Further, most factory systems have 20% to 25% range of adjustment when adaptive fueling is active. Being that negative fuel trims are not applied to PE fueling, you couldn't really find yourself in that much of a bind as far as running the engine lean.

If your WOT fuel is a commanded 11.5:1 AFR, then 12.5% less would still leave you around 12.9:1 AFR which is not a danger in most instances.

If there is the odd occasion of someone running forced induction, and at the same time not using a WBO2 for tuning to verify AFR, but instead trusting the calculated AFR to hold true, then I'd say they are asking for whatever luck of the draw they may receive.

Since there is enough variation in fuel pressure that a tuner may elect to use to more than overcome something like a 12.5% difference in flow rating, then I hardly think it worthy of panic when a given injector doesn't fit an exact rating. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really trust any injector flow rating to that extent.

Actual flow at the injector in operation (in an engine) isn't a steady-state deal that lends itself to precise prediction. When you measure the manifold pressure that the injector is firing into, you are only getting an average of what can at times be very strong pulses of pressure waves. This is but one of the factors that separate actual operation from performance on a flow-bench.

While I agree that having an accurate standard applied to fuel injectors for sale is very nice, it is at the same time very foolish to put complete trust into such a rating.

That said, I think it could be helpful to send some of these 27 lb/hr injectors to an uninterested 3rd party to have them flowed.

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

well said .. if there was such a big problem with the injectors being way off southbays phone would be ringing off the hook from there customers cars being screwed up and it does not seem that thats happening ..

southbay08

Well, said. As mentioned in previous posts, we will be contacting ASNU.
NO!! It has never happened with any of our injectors that we have sold.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Someone did take them for an independent flow, and they were 24s.

As far as a standard, this is something that is measurable.

When you buy a gallon a milk, do you want to get 100 Ounces? This is a strict measurement like an inch, a gallon, or a pound. It's not an esoteric number.

southbay08

May i ask who the third party was?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

You said the same thing about the 27s with your refusal to consider they are really 24s. That it was a metaphysical certainty that they were 27s. Well. they're not.

just please check them. I'm trying to help here. There's nothing to lose by having them verified. It's just not credible it's only one set that is off.

This is how this started, you were stubborn and refused to consider I may be right about 24 lbs. Put it aside this once and for your own sanity have other rates checked against another bench. Get them validated. At least this way you're operating from a position of knowledge. Don't be stubborn, it's not going to help. I'm really trying to help you out here, believe it or not.

I have a strong idea what it is, if we knew this information I could be right.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Post 37. Tells the story. I have no idea who 87350IROC is, he's your customer and took it to a local flow bench.

That's as independent as it gets.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I used 0.684g/mL for the density of Heptane, from Wikipedia. However I seem to recall the container at the shop saying 0.681. Maybe that is where the difference is coming from. Also the density of gasoline is so variable, it depends what you use. I would say the biggest error comes from the fact that the test is only 15s long. So the difference between 64mL and 65mL is fairly significant. Then you have human error reading the measurement. Either way it doesn't matter.

I guess I would double check Southbay's data before I bought from them. Fortunately there are many places selling Bosch III's so its easy to check. I was so happy to find 27's since I felt 24's weren't enough and 32's are to big that I didn't bother to do any checking.

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

I'm sorry I missed this post.

Is there any conversion factor between Heptane flow and Gasoline flow?

southbay08

Yes, and he has been a gentleman since day one.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Carb Connection
Kirkland, WA

http://www.carbconn.com/

88blackgta

Please describe the process you use when calibrating your machine. What known standard is used during the calibration process?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Ongoing calibration is simple. We take brand new injectors out of the box and know exactly what they are supposed to flow by manufacturer's spec, and we flow them.

If they flow to that number, we're good.

quite simple.

In this case if there's a pressure regulation problem or other issue, it would be good to have an independent test to verify.

Here's something I don't understand. My injectors are accurate. I don't sell parts mis labeled. Yet you want to know about how "I" do things. Seems to me the question is better posed to a company whose products are mis labeled. You complain I'm "arrogant" then ask me the right way to do things. I tell you, and I'm arrogant.

Someone sells me a 100 AMP alternator and it turns out to be only 50 AMPS, I'm not going to call the guy who sells 100 AMP, 100 AMP alternators and give him a hard time and question HIS methods. Nor does the guy who sells th 100AMP alternator have an obligation to teach someone else how to do it.

Then to top it all off, the response is.."well just because you bought a 100 AMP alternator you don't really need it, take the 50 and amp here an amp there no biggie" and then go out to recommended and even promote the person who sold you the 50AMP model, and trash the guy selling 100 AMP alternators as 100 AMP. Something seems off there.

I really just don't get it.

88blackgta

Okay, and if you find that the machine doesn't show the injectors flowing the correct volume, what do you do to the machine to re-calibrate it?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

There is no calibration. There are no voltage settings, it's a fixed power supply on the mother board, and is not calibrate-able. The only real adjustment is the fuel pressure, that's it.

We don't flow injectors in the dark without knowing what they are. We don't sell injectors without knowing what they are. What happened here is they flowed an injectors that show in the manufacturers book spec as being 24s, when their machine came up as 27 clearly something was wrong, and they failed to investigate it, they side stepped it, and went out to sell 27s that didn't exist for reasons I can only conjecture. It makes no sense that the 19s and 22s would be dead nuts, and the 24s be off by over 10%.

The core issue is an experienced and knowledgeable professional should not be making these amateur mistakes. What if you purchased a BG carb and it was 12% off on CFM, would you be happy? If it says it flows 750 it better flow 750.

My benches never been off so far as long as we have clean fluid and a good filter and maintain it, it is designed to be accurate, I don't think it matters much because we rarely flow a unknown injector. I know that the 715 in question here is supposed to flow 256 cc at 43.5 we are more interested in flowing sets 8 at a time and matching them, to tell you the truth, I never just sell an injector with a part number as something that it is not. We double check the manufacturers specs before we advertise and sell a new product. There's not much that can throw off these machines, but in this specific case, there's something not right.

The story doesn't match the evidence. There is no way a 22 can be dead nuts and a 24 register as 27s, it makes no sense. Yet, seems there's enough Kool Aide to go around. You all are experts why do you need me to tell you all this? I feel so arrogant having to explain all this to people who know everything.

Shoot the messenger.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I mentioned it earlier in the thread. The specific gravity is different.

Heptane= .681

Gas=.739

That's the difference.

JT

iTrader: (1)

There have been over 16 posts deleted in this thread because some cannot have a discussion without personal attacks and insults. The egos are also pretty thick in here. Posts have been moderated by both parties/sides as both are at fault for violating our rules/guidelines with their personal insults. This is a Technical forum. Please keep it that way. This is not a rally to support one person or party over the other, but rather, disclose and share information for all of us to learn. Everyone has to share this forum and we should all be adult enough to be civil.

If your post is missing, you need to take that as a warning that you're violating our rules/guidelines and that if continued, further action will be taken.

Please notch down the egos, sarcasm and keep the personal attacks to yourself. All of you are grown adults and should be able to handle behaving as one.

gtaowner

Ok a question as i am confused now myself...I am reading threads in the tbi forum and in one of the threads the moderator of the forum Rbob says injectors should be tested at static flow...If the supposed 27 lb injectors were tested at static flow would that produce the 27lb result that southbay claims to have ?..Does anyone know for sure how to test these damn things once and for all ?..Seems to be alot of different info out here but no definative answers

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Here's all you need to know.

When the injectors in question were run on the same bench, at the same time, against the known 24 lb FMS as a control injector, as described in the test in post number 37, they flowed slightly less. I don't care if they were run with cat **** at 64% duty cycle. End of the day a new, known 24LB injector flowed more than these injectors in question. End of story. Nobody is questioning the FMS is 24. No one is disputing that these "715" injectors flowed slightly less. There is no more debate on the topic. It's closed.

Bottom line all the indisputable evidence that is in says these are 24 lb injectors, not 27. How much more does anyone possibly need to accept this? For the love of god, stop the rationalization and accept reality for what it is and move on. 24≠27 case closed. Why is anyone trying to twist it differently? It's done.

That right there is your definitive answer. No room, no gray area, no interpretation, fact, as clear as gravity. There is no more confusion.

As far as flowing static, yes, they are run static for the test it was described by me in detail which I don't feel like doing again.

The only issue still in question is if the rating was off on these 24s, calling them 27s, what is being delivered as 19s, 22s, and 24s. There is a real good chance they aren't accurate either. The answer to that isn't "no one ever complained". Because no one ever checked. The other answer isn't...19, 22, 24 whatever, they're all the same just tune around it. That's not an answer either. The question is did the customer get what they ordered? Yes or no?

If your bathroom scale is always 10 pounds heavy, it's going to be 10 pounds heavy no matter who gets on it. I would like to see the results of similar third party testing of the 19, 22, and 24s. I would bet the farm, if I had one, that those are off too. How are we going to figure out where the problem lies without that information? I'd really like to know myself how this is happening. Our QC wouldn't allow it.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Why would you bet the farm if you dont mind me asking? You called the the injector 27lb just by the number right? Im sure the other ones would be ok especially if its by the numbers. But im not sure how involved it is when you guys get the injectors, as i dont clean fix or sell them

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Here's why I'd bet the farm. It is highly unlikely for just one to be off.

Like I said, if you have a scale that is 10 pounds heavy, it will always be 10 pounds heavy for everyone that gets on it, not just one person.

I think the manner in which injectors are being rated is flawed and the flaw is consistent from the smallest 19s to the largest 220s. The process used is flawed IMO.

Clean, fix, etc....isn't the issue. The issue is one of holes in QC process. When we take an injector and flow it, we take the "book" which tells us what the manufacturer's flow rating is. If we flow it and it's off by more than 2 or 3% we stop, see what the problem is, and assess the issue, we don't go slap another rating on it and sell it. We also do the control method with new injectors as outlined earlier here.

There is something upsetting that calculation and it is HIGHLY likely it is consistent throughout since it is being used in every calculation. Basically, I think it's impossible to calculate something the same way for every injector and get a different result. If it's off for one, it's off for all.

Doom86

There's a good sig floating around TGO that fits here concerning the mystery injectors.

"The simplest explanation that fits the criteria is probably the right one".

Are you reading the same thread as me? There's people complaining right in this thread, so that claim is very false. It's not slanderous banter, but if you can get through the "Big Words" there is plenty of complaints right here from a customer.

There is no "pretty close", there is right and wrong. If you need 27lbs having 24lbs isn't "pretty close", it's wrong.

southbay08

I would like to begin by saying THANK YOU to the members who have had the confidence to support us during this unfortunate and unnecessary battle of personal insults and disrespect.

I truely hope at this time that the updated information that we have received will confirm all info and answer all questions and concerns that have been raised in this thread.

Quote from the owner of ASNU, one of the Maket Leaders in Injector Diagnostics:

Hi,

I am aware of you forum discussions.

The official specs are: 0280155715
Type EV6.1L
OHMS 14,5
Test Pressure 2.70 Bar
Flow in Heptane @ .68 Specific Gravity = 256.2 cc pm
Flow in Standard Rate Gasoline @ .74 Specific Gravity = 278.8cc pm
Flow in ASNU Flow Rite @ .78 Specific Gravity = 281.8cc pm

I believe this is what you are getting, if so then your ASNU is correct.

The discussion you are having is related to the VM and their specs, which any injector can be specked for another application, as long as the user has the correct pressure settings, you can rate any injector at any given spec different from the OE (Bosch) spec, as long as you spec the pressure and with Bosch, the EV6 injectors are good up to 8 bar minimum.

Our test fluid is as close as you will get to gasoline, without the flammability.

It does not breakdown as quick as the other guy suggests, it does not smell, evaporate quickly, foam when flowing and it does not crystallise when it dries, unlike a lot of other fluids used.

In all injectors there are + - tolerance and Bosch have a 3% +- so you can get differences between batches of injectors, but with Bosch you have the best and they don’t often vary from their specs.

I do hope this helps, thanks for buying and using ASNU in your business.

Kind regards


Phil (ASNU M.D.)

Philip Ellisdon
ASNU Corporation Europe Ltd
Tel: +44 (0) 208 420 4494
E-Mail: Phil@asnu.com
www.asnu.com

I cannot thank you enough for your response. So,, just to confirm, the flow rate that we are receiving on this particular injector is accurate??
If so, would you be opposed to us posting this info onto the forum?

Hi Frank,

No problem, your tests are correct, the conversion from Heptane which Bosch quote their flow rates in to Flow Rite is spot on.

The argument about what they are sold as can be discounted if there is a specific fuel pressure given at the time, otherwise it reverts back to the standard OE specs.

Feel free to use this info, we are only too pleased to help.

Kind Regards

Phil

Philip Ellisdon
ASNU Corporation Europe Ltd
Tel: +44 (0) 208 420 4494
E-Mail: Phil@asnu.com
www.asnu.com



This should put this issue to rest once and for all!

www.southbayfuelinjectors.com
516-492-6504

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

and there you have it ... very good ... there still going to try and come back and bring you down , just ignore and keep doing what you do ...good luck ..

southbay08

Trust me don't i know it... But at this point i really don't care. Our post says it all.
Thanks Ray!

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'm confused.

1 bar = 14.5psi

Your data is 256cc/min for 2.7 bar (39.15psi) for heptane

My data was 256cc/min for 3.0 bar (43.5psi) for heptane

So either you are correct and both the FMS and B III are 27lb/hr at 43.5psi or my independent test is correct and both the FMS and B III are 24lb/hr at 43.5psi. Remember my independent test showed the flow of the FMS and B III to be about equal.

I would be interested to hear another independent test.

TPI-Formula350-

ASNU is saying the test pressure is 2.7 bar. So it seems to be easy to say @43.5 they would be 27lbs. Looks like Southbay has backed up his claims.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

So you are totally discounting the independent testing that I have done?

Trust me I want Southbay to be correct, I really want 27lb injectors. But it just doesn't seem to be the case.

irocuroc

Hey I'm a little confused also because if you search Bosch data the injector in question has almost 9 pages of google, there are posts from just about every forum . No where except here is it a 27. The e mail from the guy that owns asnu is suspect, the guy can't even spell. His e mail has 5 errors. So if he can't spell where did he get the specs. According to data available in the Internet it is 22.45. Lbs at 2.7 bar (39.15) psi. It is also listed as a replacement for the 24 blue top. But, according to the independent test flows less than the blue top, a known 24. I'm still not satisfied and now am thinking that the whole thing Is just plain weird with no satisfactory answer.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Nothing has been proven. And btw, coming from someone who never misses an opportunity for a cheap shot and sends out shills to post for them, whining about disrespect is just outrageous.

This does not show the question asked, this does not explain why the FMS known 24 lb injector out flows the 715.

I'm not so sure what was proven. Other than Frank has the email address of Phil.

I guess Bosch and the rest of the injector selling world needs to go back and re-label all their injectors form 24 to 27 because South Bay says so.

This isn't over, regardless of how much people want this to go away. Unlike ray and some others, I am going to dig into this and really take the time to understand what Phil has said. It didn't matter WHAT was posted as an excuse there are people who were going to lap it up. Facts be dammed.

It is physically impossible that a known and accepted control injecotor of 24lbs can out flow a 27 lb injector.

AND if you took the time to actually READ what Phil said, he said what I said, at different pressures, different manufacturers will rate the same injector differently, which is what I said.

Now unless the laws of physics cease to exist on the South Bay flow bench, or Bosh and the entire injector flowing public, has been wrong all this time, or anyone can prove the FMS injector mentioned is not 24 lbs, there's more to the story. I sense selective editing on the response, we don't even know what the question is.

Thsi also doesn't answer the question about how are we supposed to accept that the 19, 22, and 24s that do meed the Bosch spec, or are supposed to, that this one injector is the only one that doesn't. How is that even credible? On one hand the Bosch spec is right on the other hand it isn't? I'm confused.

When someone can explain that, there will be an answer, and as of this moment, that was not explained with this bullshit response.

I am not saying Phil is wrong, I am saying we don't have the whole story and the right questions weren't asked, the convenient ones were. There is more to it.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Exactly. The only one in the entire injector flowing world who is getting 27 is South Bay.

What ever happened to dspenser's test, thought we were hearing back on Monday.

Like I told you in PM. This conversation transcends injectors, it is more an experiment in forum Kool Aide and how people will surrender all logic and common sense for some attachment to a product and or service. It still amazes me.

Until this is explained, the issue is open.

I'll ask Phil if he will participate in an educational session so we can all understand this.

When you are buying a product you should know what you are buying not some arbitrary number assigned to it.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Yes, he is. Who are you going to believe, him or your eyes, or math?

We are just going to have to either ignore it or re define the industry standard. He's from Long Island, probably another relative.

If you keep making this point, they will turn on you too. This has nothing to do with truth, right, and wrong, nothing. This is about desire of an outcome facts be dammed. You can say the sky is blue, they will insist it's orange. You can't win by sheer numbers.

Call FIC, they have a good reputation and even South Bay said they are a good company. Send the injectors to them and ask for a flow sheet. I'd live by whatever they say based on their reputation. If you want, I will send you a set of injectors so you can get your car running while these are tested as not to hold you your build, you can have them by Thursday.

Once the next independent test validates those are 24s I'll be more than happy to take those 24s you bought, and provide 28s in their place, real 28s.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Dupe

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

People seem to be confusing no one ever testing their delivered injectors to validate the flow, therefore, there was never a problem.

As far as I can tell, 100% of the people who took the time to test the claim, found it to be false.

I say we keep independent testing, how many times will an independent test be needed until the Kool Aide crowd accepts it?

southbay08

Yes, i did say that FIC is a good company because unlike yourself no matter what my feelings or beliefs are about the competition, we maintain our professionalism and never bad mouth or bash anyone!
By the way, here is an update that i just received a few minutes ago:


Hi John,

What I said was that the flow of those injectors on his machine and the calculation of the difference between Heptane and Flow Rite is correct, the 281 calculates down to heptane at 254 which is according to various calculators on the net, is 24LBS per hour. As I am sure you are aware, the lower the number, the thicker the fluid, so as Flow Rite is higher than the Heptane, it will always flow more.

The Bosch Data shows that this injector flows 254@ 2.7 bar, the RC calculator confirms 254 = 24 LBSPH and as I understand Bosch say they are a 24 Lbs per hour injector, correct?
Well if you use the 3 Bar standard, then Bosch are wrong or who ever is saying these injectors are 24 at 3 bar as they will flow more at 3 bar than at 2.7, hence Franks 27Lbsph at 3 bar.

I would imagine that someone has put words in the mouth of Bosch as they work in Q-Stat & Q-Dyn, I would be very surprised if you found any literature from Bosch quoting LBSPH.
If someone is using the US standard 3 bar as a level and quoting Bosch, then 90% will be different, so to answer your question, YES, everyone is rating these injectors wrongly if as you say they are using the 3 Bar as the standard pressure.

To be honest, you could call these injectors 30lbs per hour if you wish, as long as you have the pressure correct for the setting.

Sorry, but these are the facts as I see them and in this case I believe they are correct, you may have a difference in readings because you use another fluid which could make a difference in flows.

I hope this help, lets start a campaign to rid the USA of LBSPH readings.

I await your call on Monday.

I do have some very technical people, I know people at the factories of Bosch, but then they get too technical and it goes over my head!!

Kind Regards

Phil

Philip Ellisdon
ASNU Corporation Europe Ltd
Tel: +44 (0) 208 420 4494
E-Mail: Phil@asnu.com
www.asnu.com


From: john
Sent: 18 January 2011 12:34
To: Phil@asnu.com
Cc: Sam Jackson
Subject: Re: Question regarding flow bench, important.

Phil,

Thank you for your response. I honestly still do not understand how the entire injector flowing world can come up with one rating for a specific injector, and South Bay comes up with another.

We use 3 bar, 43.5lbs as a standard in the US.

Jeep uses 49lbs as a standard, some use 58 lbs. So those injectors when model/manufacturer specific, are rated as such.

I look forward to speaking with you on Monday.

Here is a crazy question. We have a bunch of enthusiasts. There is a lot of confusion in the market. Would you be willing to have a roundtable as a subject matter expert on a conference call for all to hear? I think it would be GREAT PR and you can bring a tech guy.

Regards

John


From: Phil Ellisdon <Phil@asnu.com>
To: johnCc: Sam Jackson <Sam.Jackson
Sent: Tue, January 18, 2011 3:00:57 AM
Subject: RE: Question regarding flow bench, important.
Hi John,

OK, if there is a difference in the test fluids used, then this would account for differences in readings, what fluid are you using and what specific gravity is it please?
If so, then yes you can have a difference in readings, but they can be calculated if you have the data of the chemical.

The reading I explained were Bosch original at 2.7 bar with Heptane and then to make the adjustment for Flow Rite readings we multiply by 1.1 being the difference between the fluids and this is what Frank was getting, which is correct.

Some people use a Lbs per hour conversion, I don’t subscribe to Lbs per hour anyway, everyone talks about this as a spec for an injector and the first question I ask is at what pressure? Is there a standard pressure for Lbs per hour? I assume its calculated in Heptane as well? I don’t know because who ever I asked, no one has confirmed that, to which I am surprised that Bosch may give these injectors a Lbs reading, but if that is the case, it would be interesting to know what their calculation is for cc’s to Lbs per hour.

I must say that if what you say is correct about the same injector and same number being used on different applications and having different flow specs is not normal practice for Bosch, they would normally issue another part No for the same injector and a different set of specs, changing colour is nothing, just the press of a button really and when you consider that they can produce 60,000 a day, making for a specific VM is not a problem, so I think some one done a deal and got a production deal on the cheap if these are Ford as spec standard and Jeep hybrid. I hope I understood your conversation correctly.

If anyone tests these injectors and wants to compare them to the Bosch specs, they have to run at the correct pressure, but these injectors could be used elsewhere and at a different pressure they would give a different reading, although it may not match the official Bosch reading, they can be quite suitable for another application.

I think the simple answer is to scrap Lbs per hour and everyone work with cc, then there will be no more confusion.

I hope this helps, but would be more than happy talking with you, only I am out of the country just now and back in the UK over the weekend and available on Monday if that is any help.

Thank you for making ASNU your choice of equipment, we respect all our customers needs and like to assist where ever possible.

Kind Regards

Phil

Philip Ellisdon
ASNU Corporation Europe Ltd
Tel: +44 (0) 208 420 4494
E-Mail: Phil@asnu.com
www.asnu.com


From: john
Sent: 18 January 2011 01:06
To: phil@asnu.com
Subject: Question regarding flow bench, important.

Phil,

I have a used machine, an ASNU classic which I am very happy with. I'm looking into the new GDI machine in the near future. I'll call Sam shortly.

I saw you correspondence in this forum, and I don't get these flow numbers. Is there that much variance from machine to machine? I don't see how we can flow 12% difference. How did you come up with the number?

It is identical flow numbers when I put them side by side with a known 0280150947. That is know 24lb blue top. These injectors made by Bosch, flow more than this injector in question. 0280155715.

Your response is that these are 27lb injectors. Is there a calibration or something I'm missing? How does this happen?

I don't understand your math, please help me. Here is the link with the response with your name on it. Please let me know if you even sent this, that would clear a lot of things up.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/600043-27-injectors-2.html

I have done the math over and over and it does not make any sense. Please look at the link and help me out. I will try to call you in the morning US time. I am hoping to understand how we are getting different flow ratings for the same injectors.

Warmest Regards,

John

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

What we have to find out is how BOSCH measures their injectors. Because NONE of this makes any sense at all.

Is it possible Bosch is wrong? IDK I'm open to the possibility.

The math isn't adding up. Period. I know the entire world rates at one rate.

I'd like to get to the bottom of this no matter what the result.

Here's a spec sheet from Bosch:

http://www.stonis-world.net/docs/inj...ptan_flows.pdf

the 715 and the 931 are rated the SAME. I'm going to get a picture of a boxed Bosch one that says specifically 24 Pounds. A brand new injector.

So if BOSCH is selling these and billing these as 24s, is Bosch wrong? That's the question.

Is it possible that BOSCH is rating these incorrectly for years? I will not count it out. However, It needs to be proven with more than a dissertation about specific gravity of different flow fluids.

What ever the answer is, it is but can an entire industry be wrong? An independent test be wrong? How do we prove it?

If what Phil is saying is correct, we need to understand how BOSCH is rating these things to line up the two positions.

The issue here is if BOSCH does the right translation from thier CC to LBS and takes into consideration the differences in specific gravity of the fluids, heptane vs. gasoline.

I have a call into Bosch about how they rate.

Look, SouthBay, if you prove an entire industry wrong, my hat's off to you, I'm just not ready to accept it, nor should anyone else. Because you "said so" isn't good enough. That does NOT negate the validity of Phil's position. I does however make me want to konw how Bosch does their ratings.

this is far from "case closed".

southbay08

I am not trying to prove anyone wrong, you are. I haven't said a word, you have been doing all the talking. Never mentioned anything about proving bosch wrong...you and some other people did. We just said that we have been selling these injectors rated at 27lb @ 43.5psi with extremely happy customers and that is what we are going to continue to do.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

I was going to take them yesterday to get flowed but i know longer have the funds nor time to do so my 2 dogs broke my fence while they were playing. But Iam still vey interested in the flow of these

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I can't help you with the time, but if you want, I can help you with the funds, I'll get someone to flow them if you want to send them in. We all agree FIC is a good company, call Jon ask him. Show him this thread, I bet $100 he'll be happy to flow them.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I'm not trying, I'm succeeding, but that's another issue.

Here's some pictures:

Fresh from Bosch with the box labeled CLEARLY 24 LBS.



Open the box:



Close up of part number:



OK now.....

That part number "931" has EXACTLY the same specs as the "715" you rate as 27lbs according to BOSCH specs:

http://www.stonis-world.net/docs/inj...ptan_flows.pdf

Which also coincides with Stan Weiss's information you posted earlier, which also coincides with 87350's independent flow.

SO I have to ask....

Is Bosch wrong or can 2 injectors with the same exact spec have different flow ratings? Is Stan Weiss wrong? Is 87350 wrong? Is Phil wrong?

We have to be missing something.

So someone here has to be wrong....who do we believe? Can we believe anyone?

southbay08

Did you read what stan weiss rates them at? I took the info directly from their website...they rate them at 22.45lb @ 43.5psi. Explain that????