InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

With heptane, so it makes sense.

Look, can you dispell my above post or not, this is getting old.

Do we believe the entire industry or do we believe you? Google these part numbers, everyone else in the world sells them as 24s. EVERYONE.

There are two options here, either every other injector dealer in the country, the manufacturer of the injectors, BOSCH, (who invented injection) and an independent flow test are wrong, or you are and you're selling 24s as 27s.

Who are we to believe? Are you so arrogant that you think we should ignore the entire industry and believe you? I'm willing to accept it, I'm willing to give you a big slap on the back if you're right. A big thumbs up! But you have provided NOTHING to support your claim of 27lbs therefore, I can only assume they are not.

I'll bring 3 brand new injectors to your bench. The "931" the "715" and the FMS 24s blue tops. Let's put them on YOUR bench side by side and video tape it. I'm only an hour or so away, I have no problem with it.

Let me know.

I think the evidence is clear, and overwhelming, but I'm willing to be proven wrong, just to know. To really know.

I'll be honest, I'm more frustrated with the cheeleaders than South Bay. Any objective person who takes a look at this thread can at best say that the flow rates are inconclusive. BEST CASE. Yet people see what they want to see regardless of reality.

So what's next? Do I have to keep making the same point over and over or do we want to put these on a flowbench, either SB or Independent and see what they say.

I'm getting a little tired of being redundant and not having the points addressed. I think an industry decades old filled with numerous experts out weighs some guy in Long Island with a flow bench. But that's me.

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

keep up the good work !!!

southbay08

New update:


John,

To confirm your question regarding Bosch testing.

Bosch test and rate them is static mode, I have attached a full testing spec sheet, its in German but you will get the idea, the q-dyn & q- stat are the main flow readings, no where do they test in LBS ph, this is just an American thing.

I think that maybe its Ford calling them by Lbsph is certainly not an official Bosch measurement.

The specs for the 931 are not any lists I have or have seen, usually if its OE, Bosch do not list it, so I am not sure where Stonis get their data from, but I am sure its legit but again it does not spec the fuel pressure and even though they may flow different at the same pressure, they could be made to flow the same if Bosch rate them at 2.4 bar for example, where the 715 are at 2.7, you really cannot rely on just what has been listed as all Bosch injectors have differing pressure settings.

Also, Stonis rate theirs 187 Grams PM @ 3 bar Heptane and convert to Gasoline, which is a straight conversion, but they obviously have a formula.

They also rate this at 254 in standard rate Gasoline @ 3 bar, but if we convert cc of 256 (according to our Bosch data @ 2,7 bar) to gasoline, we come up with 278 and converted that to LBSph (divide by 10.5 RC Eng) it gives us a 26.5 Lbs pH, so who is correct?

I think my campaign to rid the world of LBsph is a valid one, but for everyone to use a standard 3 bar when Bosch use differing pressures is a recipe for a forum argument!!

I think there are too many people with their version of what injectors flow and depending on fluid type and condition ect, testing equipment and opinions, I think you need to shake hands on this one and agree you are both right in a manner of speaking and agree that in future you will only work in CC based on your pressure setting, convert your reading to standard rate fuel based on the SG of your testing fluid and give the customers exactly what they need, flow rates as close to gasoline as possible.
Please bear in mind fluid temperature, Rich Jensen (Cruzing Performance) always measures the temp and gravity of his fluid each day, that is another calculation to consider.

Interesting discussion gentlemen, but I think you have beaten it to death, I am away travelling at this time, so I have some jet lag and alone, I have time to join in, next week would not be so easy, but enjoyed the discussion and agree, it’s a mess!!

Kind Regards

Phil

Philip Ellisdon
ASNU Corporation Europe Ltd
Tel: +44 (0) 208 420 4494
E-Mail: Phil@asnu.com
www.asnu.com

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Since you were copied in the email, you can post my response...oh hell I'll do it.


Thanks Phil,

I think I have it figured out. I know what the issues are, I spent the afternoon testing and validating hypothesis, and have come to conclusions that I am happy with.

The issue is there are two discussions, a practical and theoretical one.

I appreciate your input. I have solved the discrepancy to my satisfaction and I will continue to rate these at 24lb/hr, or 256CC/min since I think it's a more "honest" number to be pragmatic, and my testing confirms that to my satisfaction.

I have a call into FMS to understand how they rate. I'm waiting for a call back. This can confirm or deny my hypothesis. I will let you know their results.

Now as DFI cars get older I have to figure out what I'm going to do for that market, if anything can be done. I'm watching it to see where it goes.

Regards

John

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

For the reasons listed above I'm dropping this. If the FMS results have any valuable input, I'll post it.

I even think I have solved a number of mysteries going through this process and have come to some pretty solid conclusions (I think). I think the industry made a mistake, and it's not CC vs LBS.

irocuroc

I have had enough also.. Just tell me this
Where can I buy a 15lb Bosch 3 for. 3.1 v6 I have here with bad Multecs. I can't seem to find them..

southbay08

Fiveo might have them..speak to Bruce

red rock

iTrader: (2)

As a member that has been following this debate, My question is; how then can we as consumers be sure as to what we are getting? I currently have 22lb with a 47psi afpr, does this mean they could be 24lb injectors now? With the mild build I'm planning i was looking at getting 24lb injectors. To be clear to us non technical people, how much of a increase in fuel pressure does 2-3psi make in relation to lb's in the injector, and does it change the performance of the injector and lessen it's life span? Should a person change up to a 24lb and leave the fuel pressure at 43.5? Even tho the debate got a little heated, it was still very interesting. Thank you

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Red Rock, I tired to PM you but you have it blocked.

I can answer your quesiton, but I really don't want to get into another debate.

Can you PM me? Or give me a call 201-258-5600 I'll be up 2 more hours. I have the phone forwarded.

If I put my thoughts down it will start crap all over again and I'll be told I'm wrong blah blah blah.....

I have the answer as I see it. That's what I mean by there being a practical and theoretical answer.

southbay08

Red rock,
if you want, send your injectors to us and we will flow them free of charge for you at 43.5psi and 47psi to put your mind at ease.

www.southbayfuelinjectors.com
516-492-6504

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

southbay can you flow a set of 212's for me ??

southbay08

it would be our pleasure Ray!

Doom86

I can't even understand why there is even still a debate. It's over; they were flowed and they are not 27's. The retailer can put on a good guy badge and smile all they want it doesn't change reality. Are we really so daft that even in the presents of indisputable evidence we can ignore because a salesmen smiles and say's, "it's ok"? I'm not and I don't think any of you are either.

How could this put someone's mind at ease? Someone coming and back slapping you doesn't change the fact your bench, or your ethics, are wrong. Nothing changed, physics are still the same, the earth hasn't shifted "oddly" on it's axis, PSI is still PSI, a LB is still a LB.

There are so many unanswered technical questions in this thread that are being avoided.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

In respect to both companys, I got tired of the back and fourth they both had good things to say about FIC and so do others people so I sent them my all 8 of my injectors and he will flow them and I will post results. This is a completly unbiased test by a thirdparty who both say is good.

southbay08

all of you can bash all you want. You still do not get the fact that when anyone flows an injector with heptane the flow rate is going to be lower. It was posted numerous times hetane has a lower specific gravity than gasoline...the calibration fluid that we use is the same as gasoline so the specific gravity is higher therefore the flowrate is higher so when our injectors are installed and the vehicle they obviosly run with gasoline that is why they work very well. You can say what you want i posted enough info from one of the largest companies in the world but that still isn't good enough. So with all do respect we will continue to list them as 27lb. If someone would like to purchase a set that's great, it not that is fine also.
By the way, why FIC,, John from ip has plenty to say, so why doesn't he just flow them?

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

You dont think I was bashing you do you? I hope not .
I didnt really understand what the ansu guy was saying im simple minded haha. But I think that its better if IP doesnt flow them, dont you? FIC had good things to say about both you guys anyways so it left a good taste in my mouth to have him do. And both you guys said at one point or another that FIC was a good company. To eliminate the heptane/cal fluid issue he is going to flow it against other size injectors so that way if one flows one way with x fluid and the other flows the same with x fluid well then thats a match right. like i said before im sure they are 27lb anyways. Just got tired of the back and forth between everyone and how nothing in my head was clear about it.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

You may recall that is exactly what I did. I flowed three different injectors with the same fluid. I think we all agree the blue top Ford injectors are 24lb/hr, right? I think we also agree that stock 350TPI injectors are 22lb/hr, right?

And the results I obtained:

Stock 22lb - 240cc/min
FMS - 260cc/min
Bosch III - 256cc/min

Basically the FMS and Bosch III flowed the same, right? (certainly within the error of the test).

So without doing any fancy math, pressure conversions, material properties, we see that the FMS and Bosch III flow the same. If they both flow the same on Heptane, they are going to flow the same on Gasoline as well. I did some math to validate the results.

If we go by the advertised flow rates 22, 24, 27lb/hr:

24 should flow 9.1% more than 22
27 should flow 22.7% more than 22
27 should flow 12.5% more than 24

Now lets compare those percentages with my test results.

My FMS 24's flowed 8.3% more than my Stock 22's. That is close enough to the estimated 9.1%. The results here are as expected. Both of these injectors are well known and nobody questions their flow rates.

My Bosch III 27's only flowed 6.7% more than my Stock 22's. But we expected them to flow 22.7% more. This brings the 27lb/hr claim into question.

My Bosch III 27's actually flowed 1.6% less than my FMS 24's. A 1.6% difference in insignificant considering the precision of the test equipment. Basically these injectors flow the same. This also brings the 27lb/hr claim into question.

Based on this evidence, if we all agree that the stock injectors are 22's and the FMS are 24, it is obvious that the Bosch III's are also 24's.

Now, the Bosch III can flow 27lb/hr at a higher fuel pressure but so can the 24's and 22's. When the vendors label injectors they must do so at the stock pressure or specify the pressure they were tested at. Otherwise they could list any old number.

Now I would be interested in hearing the results if someone else tests these injectors against another known injector.

Doom86

Thanks for taking the time to do a thorough indisputable test.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Yeah but you only did 2 lol haha i know its the same test but i can put it at ease in my mind that i got the right size injectors for my build i got other issues to worry about then fuel. I have actually already learned alot on this issue

red rock

iTrader: (2)

87350IROC, Thank you, that also helped to clear-up one of my questions. Your a credit to this forum.

Guest

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...-9593-a302.pdf

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

not sure what the calibration sheet means

88blackgta

Given the relationship between Injectorspus, FIC and SouthBay, this will hardly be an unbiased test. A better choice for a completely unbiased, third party test would have been Witchunter or any other company that only tests/cleans injectors and doesn't sell them.

Guest

The title of it should be good enough for those forgetting details that are quite important when throwing numbers around as "fact".

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Well isn't that interesting. At first I thought that was the wrong pdf since my FMS 24's have different numbers on them. But I see now that the data applies for my FMS injectors, p/n 0-280-150-947.

The infamous FMS 24's are 24's at 39 psi NOT 43.5 psi. On our rail they are actually 25.6 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi. How interesting.

This data makes me want to go back and check the stockers. After a little research their actual flow seems to be 21.6 lb/hr @ 43.5psi.

So let me revisit my numbers.

Stock 22's are 21.6 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi
FMS 24's are 25.6 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi
Bosch III are unknown at 43.5 psi

My flow numbers.
Stock 240cc/min @ 43.5 psi
FMS 260cc/min @ 43.5 psi
B III 256cc/min @ 43.5 psi

So I would expect the FMS to flow 18.5% more than stock. However my numbers indicated they only flowed 8.3% more. Strange, but lets continue.

Now I found that the B III flowed 6.7% more than stock and 1.6% less than the FMS based on the flow bench data.

So if you believe the stockers are 21.6lb/hr, then the the Bosch III flows 23lb/hr @43.5psi.

If you believe the FMS injectors are 25.6lb/hr, then the Bosch III flows 25.2lb/hr.

If you believe the stockers are 22lb/hr, then the Bosch III flows 23.5lb/hr.

If you believe the FMS are 24lb/hr, then the Bosch III flows 23.6lb/hr.

Funny that if you go by the previously accepted values of 22lb/hr for stock and 24lb/hr for FMS, the numbers work out really well. 23.5 vs 23.6. They do not work out well for the new numbers.

With that said I am thoroughly confused. Right now I could make an argument for the Bosch III's to be anywhere from 23.5-25.2lb/hr @ 43.5psi. I also don't know what to think of the actual flow rates of the stock or FMS injectors. I'll do the actual math tomorrow from my experimental numbers.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Ok, I worked the math based solely on my flow bench numbers.

Stock
60cc/15s = 21.6 lb/hr for Heptane @ 43.5psi
or
60cc/15s = 23.5 lb/hr for Gasoline @ 43.5psi

FMS
65cc/15s = 23.4 lb/hr for Heptane @ 43.5psi
or
65cc/15s = 25.4 lb/hr for Gasoline @ 43.5psi

Bosch III
64cc/15s = 23.1 lb/hr for Heptane @ 43.5psi
or
64cc/15s = 25.1 lb/hr for Gasoline @ 43.5psi

This is based on 0.681 g/mL for Heptane and 0.74 g/mL for Gasoline.

Ah ha, now I see where all my different numbers are coming from. Is it possible the stockers are rated @ 21.6 for heptane and not gasoline? It seems like the FMS are rated for gasoline. No idea what the Bosch III are rated for since 24 falls in the middle of 23 and 25.

Based on this data, my new guess is the Bosch III's are 25lb/hr for gasoline @ 43.5psi. That is the injector constant I will be using.

Props to madmax for questioning the assumptions.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Ok, I think maybe Southbay posted this before, but I will again.

According to Bosch:
1) Bosch fuel injectors have their flow rates defined in N-Heptane as part of their engineering specification. N-Heptane is a pure chemical and does not have the same viscosity and density as standard petrol. Hence the N-Heptane flow rate figures stated should be used as a general guide for comparison purposes only.
2) Fuel flow specifications are given in grams per minute [g/min]. This is an internationally accepted standard at vehicle manufacturing level. As development engineers deal with the weight or mass of air inducted by an engine not its expected power rating, the weight of fuel that an injector can provide is the pivotal measurement. Bosch does not rate fuel injectors related to expected engine power outcomes.
3) Flow Rating are @ 3 bar (43.5 PSI)

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I found an injector calibration for the Bosch III's.

http://www.boschdealer.com/specsheets/0280155715cs.jpg

The spec sheet shows the injectors to be 24.3lb/hr @ 39.15psi for what I assume is gasoline. It also shows the flow rate to be 27.6 lb/hr @ 50.03psi. If we assume the range from 39-50psi is linear, then that would give us a flow of 25.6 lb/hr @ 43.5psi

My calculated value was 25.1 lb/hr @ 43.5psi

I am comfortable with that level of discrepancy based on the imprecise nature of the flow bench test and the assumed values for gasoline density.

Again I am going to assume they are 25lb injectors.

I do not know why that data sheet does not agree with Southbay at 27 lb/hr and every other retailer at 24 lb/hr.

I almost made an error that led me to exactly 27 lb/hr. Perhaps Southbay made the same mistake?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I have a question for you guys....

Do you care about useable flow or max flow?

What is more important?

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Why? what does this mean? How do you know about their relationship with each other. I have talked to all 3 companys on the phone and each have there own following, and they dont try and steal each others buisness just like what southbay said in another thread. So why would this not be unbiased. Everybody and both injector companys on here has said that FIC is a good buisness and has good practices so why not send them to them. They arent losing or gaining anything here they are a well known company I think atleast. I know nothing about witchhunter or even the carb/fuel injector cleaner out here in concord ca, which is why i didnt go to them.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

What I dont get is what is the standard? It seems like there is 2 when i talked to the company outta concord he mentioned that I needed a formula for him to convert to get the flow numbers, but he said that there wasnt anything set in stone. Who came up with the formula and why are those numbers what they are. Maybe that is for a different thread.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

That is my question as well. The standard seems to be static flow rate, and that is what my numbers are based on.

The formula may just be to convert from cc/min to lb/hr. For instance here was my formula.

given 64cc/15s

64cc/15s * 4 = 256cc/min

256cc/min * 60 = 15360cc/hr

density of heptane 0.684g/cc

15360cc/hr * 0.681g/cc = 10460g/hr

there are 0.0022046lbs/g

10460g/hr * 0.0022046lbs/g = 23.1 lbs/hr for heptane

For gasoline substitute 0.74g/cc for the density.

xch3no2

I think static is the accepted standard because once the variables of response time & offsets enter the picture the ability to directly compare becomes far more difficult. Those specs need to be addressed independently given no standard can apply to all injectors.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Static is not used by Bosch or Seimans to rate their injectors. I spoke directly to the manufacturers. I have the detailed information from Bosch about how they rate them, and I'll get that together as soon as I have time.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Which is why i asked what the standard is because we use those injectors for these cars. That email that the ansu guy sent said the same thing. Just getting confusing.

burnout88

Really people I think this is a lesson to just use the manufacturer data only. It is the only reilable source. The dealers are just going to screw with the test data to make injectors work in the application that is most popular. If the manufacturer states the injector is 24LB's then only assume that it what it is. If you need a 30# injector buy one the manufacturer rates at 30#'s not what some dealer says will do 30#'s if you adjust this or that pressure level. You are on your own to find the manufacturer rating data.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Great point. That's the way we do it. We use the manufacturer spec.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Here are the results in the link below. Using heptane they flowed the exact same as a ford blue top. which is 24 lbs. using Asnu tester fluid they flowed 26.5 With that being said Bosch and all other fuel injector companys rates their injectors using heptane even the people who sell them use heptane, there has to be a reason why they use heptane I would think? Can somebody tell me why heptane is used. I think that these injectors should be rated as the manufacture specs so that way we as consumers can compare apples to apples. Thank you to all people involved in this thread.

http://www.scribd.com/full/47379610?...vkj9rtpk3joe29

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

So test A is using the ASNU fluid? And test B is heptane?
What pressure was the test at?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

OK, here's the story.

We have to agree, as I think you pointed out, that HEPTANE is the industry standard.

Bosch does flow their injectors using Heptane and here is their method, straight from the manufacturer:

25,000 cycles for break in 10 MS….washes out storage fluid. This is as soon as they hit US shore.

Then they run 10 millisecond cycles of 1000 cycles. They do this and take an average of 5 times.

9% differential is accepted we can get it to 1% on a good day. So non flow matched injectors can vary as much as 20% one to the other.

Now here are some interesting facts that were not addressed in this thread:

Bosch flows in Grams per second only. GM, ford, others order in Grams per second.

.74 Specific Gravity fluid of mineral spirits is used on occassion

The way Bosch calculates CCs to LBS is: CCs/min X .097733 that gives pounds per hour HOWEVER they will maintain they only sell injectors in Grams per second.

So there are a couple issues with rating this injector 27 lbs:

1. It is not using the industry accepted fluid, Heptane. Now, I also use the ANSU fluid, and got 27 lbs if I flow static, however, I also don't change the rating. It typically does not matter what the flow is, as long as they match. I accept the printed manufacturer spec flow, and match them.

2. Bosch, me, and many others do not give flow numbers static. I like to use multiple duty cycles. The dead time has an effect on the flow, although minimal. Rating static is not a reliable result in my opinion as your engine should never see a static condition. IMO, this is a flawed method.

3. I have a problem rating these at 27 lbs for the for the following reason. This is the MAX FLOW of how the injector operates with the wrong fluid. What does that mean for you guys building engines?

1. Your car can NEVER GET 27lbs of gasoline, because the car should NEVER be running static at any time. If it does you have a defect.

2. Tuning parameters are governed around industry standards and it will throw off your tune, minimally, but still won't be perfect.

3. We make reccomendations based on 80% duty cycle, which we consider safe, again, to get 27lbs that would be based on 100% duty cycle, which your vehicle will NEVER operate at, or should never. Using Heptane changes that duty cycle.

4. Because you don't have an operational environment that will allow you to go static, and not be running 27lbs, you run the risk of severe engine damage if you are on the edge.

I have had conversations, with dspencer for example, who is trying to run almost 400 HP with 24lb injectors. He said "lots of guys are doing it".... I reccomended 30lbs for him. Keeping the duty cycle lower eliminates issues as outlined above, so going a little large isn't the end of the world. Can you imagine the issues he would have if his 24s were rated the way these 27s are? He's using an injector that is barely big enough to start with, and then the flow is over rated. Recipe for trouble.

To come to the final conclusion the bottom line issues are two fold:

1. We have to accept Heptane as the industry standard. Not because it's as accurate as mineral spirits (if you want to make that argument) or other fluids, but because it's what the industry uses. Using this standard protects your engine, and compensates for variables in the injector. As I said, injector ratings can be +/- 10% heptane compensates for that.

2. Injectors should be rated with a duty cycle, not static. That is the way Bosch does it. That is the way Seimans does it, and that is the way many of us in the industry do it.

Now I did say that I used the ANSU fluid, and when I flow wide open with ANSU it does come up 27, but to use that invents a standard that the industry does not accept, and can result in issues with your car. It is a good medium to use, to MATCH injectors, but not to RATE injectors. WRONG TOOL FOR THE JOB BASED ON INDUSTRY STANDARDS.

And even this reading can vary based on things like fluid break down and fluid temp. I suspect Heptane became the standard as injectors are flown at what? 75 degrees? The temp of the shop? But your engine is a lot hotter, which, as a result, thins gasoline also. So given the thermal dynamic properties of gasoline, we can see how Heptane became the standard, since it is slightly thinner than gasoline, but similar when at operating engine temps.

So given all that we have learned, industry standards still put these injectors at 24lbs. YES, they can be rated differently, if you ignore industry standards.

Hope this helps.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

43.5 which is the standard for our cars

big_G

Thanks for writing that up, John. Good research and data.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Thank you for that as well this turned out to be very informative thread. Thank you southbay, thank you injectors plus!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I asked JT to make this a sticky. I think there is a lot of good information here and it has over 2300 views as of this posting. This is a good candidate for a sticky, and maybe he can rename the thread to make it viable as a sticky.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Dspenser, To answer you question from PM..how does heated ASNU fluid respond?....

Heated ANSU fluid doesn't matter. It doesn't change the fact that this is not industry accepted method. Again, this is a great medium to MATCH injectors, but not so great to RATE injectors. Not because there's anything wrong with the medium, but because the industry doesn't accept it as standard. Wrong tools, wrong method.

I can flow these injectors with prune juice and the 30lbs

I can flow these injectors with flu vaccine and get 28lbs

I can flow these injectors with cat **** and get 22lbs.

It doesn't matter.

The only rating that matters to you as a consumer is what these flow with HEPTANE.

If I use any fluid other than HEPTANE my numbers are meaningless. I can not decide that the flow number with any arbitrary fluid, with arbitrary methods. I can't just change the rating to deviate from industry standard to suit my needs to make money by claiming something unique, and rating other injectors as manufacturer spec when it suits my needs. What "I" would do is rate them all the same, and put an explanation on my page about how we do that and why it is better. Rating one injector one way, and another injector using different methods renders both values worthless if coming from the same vendor. Someone coming to my site expects that my products are rated by industry standards, not some make believe number based on my own methods, and I have the responsibility to provide that product using those ratings.

If I post on my website that these are 32lbs of flow because I chose to flow with milk. Omitting the fact that I flow with milk, and assuming the consumer has any understanding of the implications of milk, what are you buying? I do not have the right to make up flow numbers because I choose to flow with milk without disclosure and explanation.

I have learned a lot here too, we take for granted the details. I am glad I stick to manufacturers ratings when we flow, since we too use ASNU fluid. As far as I am concerned, I am comfortable with our technical practice and in this case rating these at 24. What I am going to do as a result of this thread is keep both ASNU for MATCHING injectors, and keep HEPTANE for RATING injectors.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

MY thoughts......

As far as I am concerned, you have proved nothing in this
thread ('cept for your 'tude) because none of the
ratings mean anything.

If you tune the engine to the correct air fuel ratio
and do not excede the the proper duty cycle at WOT all is good,
no matter what anybody says the lbs. per hour are.

The difference between 24# and 27# in duty cycle at WOT wouldn't even be worth discussing, because if you are that close at 24#, 27# isn't going to help that much.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

If you say so. The point wasn't to prove anything, it was to come to the bottom of a discrepancy, which we did. Many people have told me both on line and off, that they learned something, they probably aren't as smart as you.

I still maintain flow ratings matter. You don't have to believe that. I also believe people spending money on parts should know what they getting, even if you feel it's not important. And I think we solved that. And unlike flow numbers for heads, these ratings actually have meaning and can't be manipulated.

irocuroc

That's silly, I for one have thought it was very informative, maybe next time you buy spark plugs, don't check the heat range. As you can just tune them to work! But, if I shop for injectors all 24's should be 24's period. The injector size is important when you tune.

southbay08

Just want to let everyone know that we have been following this thread very closely. We thank everyone who has taken the time to research this issue and for sharing the information that they have obtained. This has become a learning experience for alot of people including us. Everyone wanted information from independent companies to prove or disprove our claims. We now have the results from one of the largest companies in the world...ASNU, info from 87350iroc, and from FIC. ALL of us have come up with the same info utilizing different fluids, but unfortunately there are some people who just want to beat this thing to death and to prove that we are not supplying our customers with quality products and that we providing false information.
It is a known fact that ASNU will not warranty their machines if people flow their injectors with heptane but since Injectors plus states that "heptane" is the industry standard then i guess ASNU should just go out of business or redesign all of their machines to flow with heptane.
As far as running the ASNU machine at 80% duty cylce, if injectors plus actually had a machine which he doesn't, he would know that it is impossible to set the ASNU machine to flow at 80% duty cycle... there is no way to adjust it.... static is static.
Heptane is not the same specific gravity as fuel. Flowrite is a Stoddard product, it has the same specific gravity as fuel and it reacts the same as fuel does in a car.
Companies have been flowing their injectors the same way for a good 20 years with the room temperature from 60 degrees up to 100 degress depending on their location but i suppose they are all wrong now also . Because we advertise one of our injectors as 27lb, this entire forum got turned upside down because of one or two people.
We are a reputable company that has sold thousands of injectors to date with an unblemished history, our injectors flow dead on.
This is the last post that we will be making regarding this situation. We thank the members who have supported us. If anyone at any time has a question,, PLEASE contact us via email, PM, or call us collect...we will be more than happy to speak with you.

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

enough said !! you guys handle your business very professional and thats what keeps customers coming back ... some people like to argue just to argue on this board , ignore them ...

o ya you should have my 212 injectors tomorrow or tuesday .. just pm me when you get them .. im also going to need a set of 24 lb. injectors very soon ..