oramac91

iTrader: (5)

stock tpi Intake on dart heads 230 64cc.I matched it up, off the car.It so close.Am scared it might blow out.It looks super close.Man i hope this works.I dont have another 1000 to put into a aftermarket tpi system.

ASE doc

Wow! I don't know how the Darts flow but you are definitely choking them with the stock TPI intake. Did you at least port the base?

Atilla the Fun

Unless you have a 434 under them, the heads are too big. If you do have a 434 or bigger, the TPI won't suffice.

RS Chris

I would be worried about those heads sucking the intake right throught them.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Ya its ported matched.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

He he

ASE doc

Or a NASCAR 358 that will make 650+hp at 7,000 rpm. I have seen test results from a small block 350 with Dart 220cc. They didn't experience a huge loss of drivability but they of course didn't gain any real power either as the dual plane intake used in the test would not support the large heads. 230cc with stock LTR TPI though, I think that's crossing the line. Maybe with a Miniram and then it would take some very thoughtful compression ratio and cam lobe matching to make it run on pump gas and be streetable.

The engine will probably run, assuming you don't suck a gasket. I just don't think it will run very well.

cuisinartvette

Ditto. If you can sell those heads and get something much smaller youll like the way it runs much much better.

Have a set of Darts ported to 230 on a 383. For what I want it to do they will work good (built and geared mostly for top end 4000rpm up) but honestly...smaller head with more airspeed would be noticeable more responsive and torquey on the street. On the track or WOT not so much. Had the same heads on a large roller cammed 350 last yr. Not a good choice so on a smaller cammed TPI the car will be a turd , sorry thats the truth.

If it helps any a well put together TPI car would leave me sitting at a light.

Bigger isnt always better.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

ya i know it wont breath right , but going to buy a frist intake set up.And build a bottom.Am porting stock tpi now to healp brething a little.So hopefully i can get at least 5200 out of it.Need 6500+ http://www.facebook.com/ThisWeekInCamaro

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

My fiend has a 350 with 10.1s and dart 230 heads .its carbed tho. Runs mid 11s.I know i need a new intake and plemum.Frist is what i buy.then i get the 6500 i need.thx for info.(your right) build on http://www.facebook.com/ThisWeekInCamaro I show dyno numbers when done.(if good or bad i will show it)

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Has to run better than it was. last heads had like 6 bent valves.
pst Waht i get for trusting someone.

project89

iTrader: (1)

man thats an afully large runner head for a tpi motor.

buddy of mine built a motor for his iroc with large runner heads, but he was supercharging it, before he put the supercharger on it he ran it at the track thing only went into the 13's, big mismatch for an n/a or small cube engine.

but once he put the procharger on it it was a whole new animal

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

waht can i do beside a superchrager? will it be ok with frist intake set up
http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/ or do i have to go 10 ot 11 to 1s?
I do what i have to to use these heads. info plz

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

with keeping the tpi.What do i have to do at the mini.Frist intake set up.for 1 i know.It the bottom end a must.Have 9.1s. help plz dont want to pt back together to take it back a parthttp://www.facebook.com/ThisWeekInCamaro 350 10.1 runs 11s with them heads,( but carbed)

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

First intake and throw a 3.75 or 3.875 stroke in the block and it may run ok. Else id put those up for sell and get something smaller. Its better suited for the rpm range. First on a 350 doesnt mean you will have 6500 rpm in it. Really gonna depend on the cam

Ranchopower

I have a TPIS intake I dont need anymore, ported also, with BBK 58mm TB fuel rails and 60lb injectors if anyone interrested...


Javier

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

[QUOTE=Ranchopower;5324823]I have a TPIS intake I dont need anymore, ported also, with BBK 58mm TB fuel rails and 60lb injectors if anyone interrested...I would prices, pics. you can either post on here or on http://www.facebook.com/ThisWeekInCamaro . or email me tigg.er1969@hotmail.com thx

cuisinartvette

By the time almost any intake/cam stops working those heads willl just start.
Forget about your friends 350 the car "wont run". Trust me!
Motor is simply too small for those heads. BTDT


Is there a reason youre stuck on them? Just curious.

Not trying to be critical think some are trying to keep you from being disappointed. These guys are trying to help you

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

ppl say that but friend run a 350 with 10.1 and it runs great,so i dont understand.My cams .600 lift?

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Ya i know everyone is trying to help.I just understand how friends 350 runs great with them.but everyone saying it cant be.Whats tech on why it would not work good?thx for everyone helping ore info the better, i do apprecate all post

project89

iTrader: (1)

while his 350 may run with them it would run much better with a smaller head.

unless u plan on putting some turbos or a supercharger on that motor sell those large heads and buy something with a 195 or 210cc runner

cuisinartvette

^^^^^
He thinks it runs great thats all. Probably doesnt know any better.

You want good airspeed to fill the cyl ea time that valve opens.
With a motor that small under that head it simply cannot do it

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Define what you consider runs great? I've seen much smaller heads go much faster than 11's and make more area under the curve than larger heads. Some combos with large heads run good, but you have to move powerband up and really cam it right to make use of such large port. The cross sectional area of the port is just not suited for a lower rpm 350-383 and especially not a long runner intake that cant build rpm by design.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

He does not race he went to track 1 time just to see.So with a good driver am sure it would do better .I know i wont get peak power with the bottom end stock.If it runs high 11s am happy with that,Tell i complet my bottom end build.Some time next year.Just not spending more money on other heads that will be useless to me next year.As long as it runs ok i be happy. .You know any bottom end builds with them heads on pump gas.I really enjoy your input,you seam you know your chit.http://www.facebook.com/ThisWeekInCamaro

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Most guys using those heads on smaller motors are turning HIGH rpms, 7-7500+ sometimes. To do that you need forged parts and lightweight pistons with strong rod bolts. Way overkill for a TPI motor thats not seeing boost/nitrous and RPM.

And dont get the idea that those heads on your motor will automatically get you 11's. ESPECIALLY with TPI. Look for the thread on 11 second 400whp+ TPI builds...you will find that there are VERY few out there. FIRST included.... so its gonna take some work to get it done and those heads will likely hurt your track performance because you wont be turning RPM to make the power. The torque curve will be low on the bottom and mid range with a TPI intake, and it wont leave hard. IF it dont leave hard, it will be difficult to see good timeslips

cuisinartvette

Uncle. lol


Keep us posted on your build.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

will do.11 12s it dont really matter am not a big track guy.Just want power to play.
If runs horrible i just have get that bottom end done faster.but keeping the tpi setup .Frist 1 of course! thx all.http://www.facebook.com/ThisWeekInCamaro up dates on this site

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Where did you get the heads again? What valvesprings are on them? Id seriously consider reselling and buying a suitable head. Probably have solid roller springs on them that will destroy hyd lifters

DeltaElite121

230 is a LARGE runner for a motor that doesn't take advantage of the differences up top. That car is going to be a turd until higher RPM's and you probably won't even reach those areas (thus, ALWAYS a turd). You need to build around your intake/cam limitations that you are keeping. Why would you waste potential?

ASE doc

The science behind why those heads will be a problem on your 350 TPI is that the TPI works on velocity. The long runners are designed to produce velocity in the intake air. This velocity, or air speed, produces a ram effect, producing superior cylinder filling to what the same engine would see with a basic dual plane intake. This superior cylinder filling produces increased torque. That's why TPI motors have such great low to mid range torque. In order for the engine to benefit from this ram effect, the air stream must be fairly clean and of a reasonably constant size. The void created in the air tract by the huge 230cc intake ports will likely cause the air to pool, killing the velocity and thus the ram effect.

Your 230cc heads are intended for either a high revving, big cam, small cube motor or a big cam large displacement motor that will want alot of air. Because the long tube TPI is a long runner, high velocity design it does not really support a high volume of air flow.

Some of us have spend a great deal of money and time creating a certain combination of intake volume, cam lobe and cylinder head to stretch the TPI's high rev and horsepower capabilities but we all know that this is a compromise. I am running a 195cc intake port that has been ported to 200cc. My heads and cam push the limits of my TPI which is put together from spendy hi flow parts that are ported, where possible, to maximize flow.

I hope you understand what kind of small motor we are talking about that will actually make use of those heads. Those heads support 600 N/A hp and can be ported to support 700hp. A small cube motor that will produce that kind of power will have to be built from no less than a Dart SHP block. It will need a 4130 crome moly crank and rods and forged pistons in order to live for very long. I have plans for a motor like this myself and as I see it, using the least expensive parts that will support the power, I am looking at $3,000 just in parts for the bottom end. Only a fool would build a motor like that without the services of a really good engine machinist. For the work needed to put this motor together, add another $1,000.

Then you have to know a little bit about engine design in order to match up a compression ratio and cam that will run on pump gas and make 600+ N/A hp. That's where it gets fun, unless you don't care about having to buy 108 race gas by the 55 gallon drum.

BadSS

Dyno of 9:1 355 with heads ranging from 165cc to 230cc.
http://www.compcams.com/information/...HP0101-001.asp

ASE doc

Wow! Those dyno results show amazingly little performance difference between the different size heads. Still, that was with a dual plane manifold which may be more forgiving of the larger ports. I think that may be the same article I read some time ago.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Dyno may not show the differences but a track surely would.

cuisinartvette

Not enough motor to make those heads work. I imagine part throttle it wouldnt be much fun driving the 230 head.
Interesting WOT comparison though.

DeltaElite121

That magazine also probably didn't take into account parasitic loss from accessories or the rest of the drivetrain. I'm calling over-inflated #'s and a road to disappointment.

BadSS

Parasitic loss and whether the numbers are inflated or not would apply equally across the board since it's the same engine on the same dyno with no other changes than the heads.

Volume in and by itself have nothing to do with whether a combination will be a turd or not,,,, especially under WOT.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for break down,Thank all for you input.

DeltaElite121

Oh, I'm more than aware of that. There's plenty of dyno queens out there that AREN'T fast, but still make the power. Magazines are generally not good references outside of small pieces of general information.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

I'm no technical whiz like you guys are. But, I do understand about the velocity stuff. I've got Trickflow 175's with an appropriate "small" cam. HP numbers are only "good". However, my torque, especially down low, is diesel-like, (better than many 383's I've seen), and leaves many "hot" cars sitting at the stoplight. Would they chase me down, maybe even by the eighth mile? Probably. But, I wanted a fun street motor, not big numbers on a piece paper. It's especially pleasing when the fat, bald, old man in the noisy old "junk" leaves some pimple faced kid in his Honda grabbing gears and bouncing off the rev limiter to try and catch up!

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

So its a air flow problem,What if go first tpi ..http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/products.htm. or am still way off?Its has a 6.00 lift cam 9.1 pistons new bottom end.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

whats does 345 on the pitons?

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Theres video of the pistons. there a 017- 05-11-c on them 2?

BadSS

They're probably the Speed Pro 345NPs - Cast Flat-tops

BadSS

There is more than one reason that may cause a dyno queen that should be fast not to perform at the track. Inflated dyno numbers are just one of them. I'm also one that doesn't put a lot of stock in comparing dyno numbers unless they're done on the same dyno on the same day and no one has a reason to try and fudge the numbers. I also don't hold a lot of stock in magazine articles unless my personal experiences can back up the results,,, to a degree.

There's no reason for the author to fudge from one head to the other, plus I consider Jeff Smith one of the better magazine tech writers. Even if the numbers are inflated,, I don't think they are,, the comparison is valid for the RPM range tested. The power numbers also back up my experiences in building engines and customer results from the heads I sold out of my old shop. Generally the better engine combinations I’ve put together and sold for flat top 350s tended to run best with the 180cc or 215cc heads. The article backs that up.

If you crunch the numbers to get flow per cfm,, which gives one an idea of "velocity",, the 180 heads clearly are the most efficient. If you add up the HP numbers and get an average from 2600 - 6000, the 215s make the best average power at 311HP, but the 180s are within 0.5HP at 310.5HP,, well within dyno tolerance. Plus,, average power on the 215s from 4000 – 6000,, a good indication of how well the car will pull in 2nd and 3rd gear is 358.5HP compared to 356HP for the 180 head. While I’d consider the 180s on the engine in this article with the cam, intake, and headers used as "the best" overall head,,, average power from 2600 – 6000 on the 215s is close and the cam with only .480 lift is more suited for the 180 heads. Partial throttle would be better with the 180s, but if you’re running a 2800 or larger stall,, it’s not going to be a lot different. However,, if you’re running a standard transmission,,, throttle response would definitely be noticeable.

I know the OP has the 230 heads, but they’re only down 1.5HP on average from 2600-6000 compared to the 180s with the .480 lift cam. The 230s have the potential to make a good bit more HP with a higher lift cam with slightly more duration – which he’s indicated he has. Combine that with a FIRST intake with runners large enough not to restrict the filling capacity of a 230cc head and the midrange boost from the tuned effect, I think most everyone would be surprised at how well the “big cam” and “big heads” will work on a 350. Very few of the old TPI rules apply when running a FIRST.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

so no one knows?

watajob

iTrader: (29)

IMHO, too much cam/head, not enough compression and/or cu. in. and/or RPM operating range, (or a combination of all three) and a lousy intake system. In other words, poorly matched parts.

project89

iTrader: (1)

u have to rember that the op wants to use these heads with a stock tpi setup,thats the biggest issue with using these heads

imho if u really want to run these heads get a vic jr efi manifold with a throttle body elbow and ford throttle body and run it that way

undecided

even still with any intake there is still too much stock hangin around that will dog it down. add all that air, add fuel? add spark? how bout exhaust?

and how long until the stock lower end starts to clatter? or even break? cuz if it does make it grow a pair u cant say it wont get beat on.....cuz hey who dont lol

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Whats the number on the bottom of pistons mean?No am not going to run the stock tpi now.Iam going to run first tpi.Exhaust is 3inc all the back,no cat.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Why ford tb?