sweetmelissa

dead at the gas pump !!!! Drove car about an hour,, ran good,, stopped for gas and then turned the key and "nothing"! great,, It's hot out and I'm by myself.. Been getting a click (not always) when I turn the key for over a year now but it always starts after 4 tries.. Everything lights up in the dash,, and no security light comes on..... I'm at war with the mechanic who's telling me it's the vats (without even checking ) and I'm saying it's the frigging starter. I don't think the starter will be clicking if it's the vats.. tried to jump the starter and it just cranked and would not turn the engine...

So, after sitting at the pump for 4 hrs and all kinds of people coming over trying to tell me what THEY THINK is wrong with it I was pissed off, hot and aggravated and just kept people away from my car.. I finally get a friend on the phone who has a trailer so I can atleast just get it home,, I don't call tow trucks because they only damage the car... I get it home and it is still dead.. This has got to be a DEAD STARTER, (solenoid)...I'm having a problem convincing the mechanic and it's turned into a huge argument.. I can't get under the car just yet to check for loose or bad connections and grounds because the jack is not here !!!

Why is the mechanic associating a bad starter with the vats system ??? I know about the vats and it disables the starter but I truly believe the problem here is a DEAD STARTER !!! he said he doesn't believe it's the starter because even though it would not turn the engine it still cranked... I say bullshit,,, even if it does do that it can still be dead,, that clicking was the solenoid !!!!! Checked the battery also,, it's a fairly new die hard gold and it was testing good !!!!! Help me shed some light here,, the mechanic is a good guy and getting into an argument won't get my car fixed...I'm just protecting my car from a possible wrong diagnosis... Been there, Done that !!!!!!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Wow time for a new mechanic, your right with checking power and grounds sounds like the starter solonoid had heat soak.

sweetmelissa

There's no juice going to the purple wire at the starter !!!!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Power starts at the ignition switch then goes to the shifter park neutral switch the to the starter enable relay. The easiest way to track it backwards is to pull the kick panel on the drivers side the power wires are the large gauge usually yellow and green you can pop the relay and check for power there or just install a jumper wire if it cranks yeh if not pull apart the center console and check the wires there.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Schrade

Yes. I did NOT have it reversed.

Highlighted for CLARITY.

Damn I got it down.


OP; if you're guzzling the fuel, it's highly likely that your INJECTOR PULSEWIDTH IS PEGGED. This will foul the exhaust, and the O2's, and fouled O2's could give a DTC [O2], as you once had.

sweetmelissa

TP, thanks for the pics,, especially that starter relay... I pulled codes from computer and when I did my electric fans came on immediately and I got code 12 only.......I am picking up a new key from the dealership today (ordered yesterday) and also cleaned the ignition cylinder I have key #13 ....I know it's probably NOT the key (would be too easy,lol) but wanted to just wanted to make sure.. the guy at dealership said the machine recognized my key immediately (whatever that means),, maybe it searches the key info or something !!!! I'm checking the starter relay next,,, guy at GM said to also check the vats relay !!!!! TP, when to turn the key to on I can hear the fuel pump and all accessories work but my temp guage jumps right to the top,,, something I should look for there ?????

Thanks again

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Everything you posted sounds like the vats is working . The ignition switch is a pain to get to. Start with the obvious check your fuses , This picture is your road map just follow the wire checking for power when the key is in the crank position. This shows a manual transmission clutch switch but your automatic will have the park neutral switch in the center console on the side of the shifter.

sweetmelissa

TP, I got to the starter relay and it didn't work so I jumped it,, then I was able to crank the car but it would not fire....Then tested it for spark and his has spark....The fuel pump is coming on..... Where do I go from here ????? I will pick up a new starter relay Monday...... Also,, I tried my NEW key and that didn't work......Do you think by just replacing that relay it would fix my problem.......What if that doesn't fire the engine ?????
Is there a fuel relay ??? Checked the fuel fuses they're good !!!

Thanks Melissa

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Since you bypassed the relay, I think this is vats related it could be the key reader since they checked your key pellet. If you buy a noid light and plug it onto one of the injector harness plugs it should blink. Your security light should be on right now. Usually the issue is with the contacts in the ignition switch there are two small white wires in a orange sheath bye the bottom of the column. you can unplug the harness at the bottom of the column and the resistance if you hook a ohm meter on the wire that are headed up the column you will have the key pellet resistance with the key installed. if you dont the issue is the key cylinder contacts. I am offering vats removal for the rest of the month to program it out of your computers memcal chip for $30 just wanted to throw out that option. Most people solder in the correct resister down at the white wires when the key contacts fail.

sweetmelissa

The security light is not on

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

some calibrations do not have the diagnostic code 46 I would need to have the letters off the computer memcal to see if thats enabled. The only other way I know to see if its a vats issue is to use a volt ohm meter that has a hz setting with the key on the passkey module send a 30hz signal at 50-60% through the dark blue wire on pin B6 of your ecm.

fireburdluvr85

Did u check the c100 connector? I had mine get hot after a 250 mile trip. Just lost charging and starting. Pegged my temp and oil gauges. When u bypassed the relay did u have the key on run? Dumb question but I've encountered worse in the field.

sweetmelissa

yea, the key was on !!!

sweetmelissa

TP, is that memcal located on the drivers side firewall surrounded by 3 relays ???? I got these numbers off it,, 882401 !!!!! I'm thinking this is NOT the memcal because you said letters not numbers !!!!! And this is under the hood... Is the memcal under the dash ?????

fireburdluvr85

The mem cal is the chip inside the computer.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

The ecm is under the dash on the passengers side. It is in a plastic bracket below the dash speaker. You will need to remove the 2 7mm screws drop down the ecm and there is a aluminum plate in the center of the ecm retained with 2 1/4 screws. Once the plate is removed you will reveal the memcal. let me know the letters on the memcal and I will look to see if it contains the vats error code.

sweetmelissa

TP, there are 2 yellow wires that come together with a small clip hanging from the bottom of my steering column. Do you think these run up the column and go my ignition key cylinder... Do you know if that is the correct wire color for the IKC and just need to be plugged back in....

Meliss

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

That doesn't ring a bell, almost sounds like a airbag connecter but IIRC air bags started in 90

sweetmelissa

My car has been dead for 3 WEEKS !! I finally decided to let mechanic check out the vats,, Went to radio shack and bought resistors and other stuff,,, tested it and the car fired up.. So I bypassed the system but NOT permanently incase I want to reverse it later....I'm very happy my car is running again !!! You were right TP,, vats !!!

I still think something else is also going on, not always but sometimes when I turn the key on I get click, turn again click, turn again click,, turn again it starts.....

TP, do you think there's something wrong with the starter or was that clicking a part of the vats problem ??

Couldn't wait to go for a cruise today,, the weather was on my side !!

Thanks again for the help TP !!

Meliss

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Its hard to say the clicking if its coming from the starter it would be caused bye too much current draw, bad wire connection in a connection to the solonoid power or ground. If the clicking in inside the car the contacts in the starter enable relay could have a issue and the relay would need to be replaced.

sweetmelissa

o.k. I see !! Most likely has to do with the starter or solenoid then.. I already replaced the starter enable relay with a brand new one from the dealership..I'll have to wait and see if it does that click thing again,, hasn't done it since I bypassed the vats.. Only been a couple days though !!! I'm pretty sure I heard it coming from the starter area.....

Hoping to put it in the car show this Friday !!!

sweetmelissa

Hi TP,, I was out for a cruise the other day and got on it a little and had to come to a very quick stop and when I stepped on the gas to continue driving I was not running on all 8 cylinders,, infact my car was practically not driveable,, I limped it home 10 min away.. It killed me to drive it like that,, had to really baby the gas pedal... Had the same exact symptoms 10 months ago and it was a blown injector (#7).. had that (one) fixed at a shop for a staggering $336.00.. I am replacing all 8 injectors this weekend along with the FPR, new vac lines and some other stuff while I have it apart.. I'm going with the Bosch 111's 22 lbs,,, I read a lot of people on here like those... They should fit right in my 5.7 ,, right ???? Also,, what do you think of the "Python" injectors ?? I don't know anyone who has them..... I am doing this job myself,, do you have any tips or recommendations ?????

Thanks ,, Meliss

sweetmelissa

Oh Yea, went out to the garage and started it yesterday (did not drive it) and it seemed to be running good !! Do you think I had a clogged injector ??? I don't trust it now so will be replacing injectors.....

sweetmelissa

One more thing (sorry),, I put fuel injector cleaner (STP) in the tank on a regular basis,,,, I just learned that may be harmful to the injectors....Is that true ???

fireburdluvr85

personally love my bosch III injectors. hell for $165 shipped to my door practically next day who could go wrong. took about an hour or so to replace.

sweetmelissa

Thanks Fireburd !!!! I installed Lucas Lightning injectors in my 86 305 years ago and they were also really good !!! Dealership wants $202.00 (a piece) for the stock ones !!! They carry AC DELCO and DELPHI,,, Won't be going that route !!! Napa Auto wants $83.00 (a piece) for theirs.. I'll have to call Southbay....

Also, do you know anything about "injector cleaner" in the tank harming the injectors ??

Thanks, Meliss

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

When you call Southbay make sure to let them know your a Third Gen . Org member , cause ya get a price discount on the new injectors for that ....

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Pictured above is the typical set up for a 1986-89 MAF based system. Speed density is similar. (A) Intake manifold. (B) EGR valve (C) EGR temp switch (maf only) (D) PCV fitting, to the left is orifice for cold start injector (maf only) (E) Thermostat housing neck and bolts (F) Bolts needed for top plenum and runners- 13- M8x1.25x30mm, 2- M8x1.25x40mm, 4- M8x1.25x50mm, 1- M8x1.25x30mm throttle bracket stud, 20 total, these use a T40 Torx head bit, NOTE these are metric. (G) Fuel rail typical for a "F" body, maf system, fuel lines for Corvette is on opposite side. Look at picture, as this is a complete system (H) cold start injector and fuel tube (maf only) (J) Fuel injectors-8 total (K) Intake runners, speed density will not have the cold start opening (L). (M) Intake air sensor (P) Intake plenum, with throttle body, be sure to get complete throttle body with no missing upper and lower cover plates, bottom plate has provisions for IAC and coolant tubes. (Q) Throttle bracket and bolts (R) Vacuum fittings for fuel regulator, heater control and brake booster, speed density will have a fitting for MAP sensor and mounting boss.

sweetmelissa

TP,,WOW !! Thanks for all that info,, appreciate it !!!!!

Just got off the phone with Southbay,, ordered the Bosch 3's.... Talked to Frank, he seems like a nice guy and (funny),, had a few laughs !! Can't wait to see the difference these injectors are supposed to make !!

Init4fun,, I did mention TGO and got the 10% discount !! Thanks !!

TP, thanks again for the info !!!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

The 10% discount code is Tuned

sweetmelissa

Yea, as in "tuned performance",, LOL !!!

Cycokat

Who/what is Southbay? I may be failing at Google-ing, because I can't seem to find something called Southbay that sells auto parts.

sweetmelissa

They sell fuel injectors... "Southbay fuel injectors" ....

Cycokat

That did it, thanks. I'm chasing a fuel mileage problem too and injectors are pretty pricey. The $ seems better on that site, post up how they work out for you.

southbay08

Some of the injector cleaners actually work well, However it depends on the
condition of the injectors and your fuel system. Debris can ultimately wind up in the injector causing them to clog or leak. At the risk of this sounding like a sales pitch,, flow testing injectors is the best way to clean them. The problem that we have with the injector cleaners is that you will not know if the are within spec.

sweetmelissa

O.K. Southbay,, thanks !!!!!!

TP,, when I change the injectors do the bolts for the runners and plenum need to be torqued to specs.. If so,, what are the specs ??

Also, I can leave the throttle body on,, right ????

Jay

iTrader: (2)

I'm sure there is a torque spec listed but I've personally never used it and put together TPI set ups numerous times. It's got to be tight enough that it seals.

I would buy a gasket set as they are cheap and easily damaged. I also like to use anti seize on the threads of the bolts.

The TB doesn't need to come of the plenum.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Manifold to Runner Bolts 25 lb. ft.
Runner to Manifold Bolts 25 lb. ft.
Fuel Rail Attaching Bolts 15 lb. ft.
Throttle Body Attaching Bolts 18 lb. ft.
Throttle Position Sensor 18 lb. in.
Idle Air Control Valve 13 lb. ft.
Throttle Body Coolant Plate 27 lb. in.
Throttle Body Cover Plate 30 lb. in.
Power Brake Vacuum Fitting 108 lb. in.
Fuel Line Nuts 20 lb. ft.
Fuel Tube Bracket Bolt 25 lb. ft.
Fuel Pressure Connection 115 lb. in.
Pressure Regulator Base to Rail 44 lb. in.
Pressure Regulator Bracket 44 lb. in.
Outlet Tube to R/H Rail Retainer 44 lb. in.

sweetmelissa

Thanks TP !!!!

Also,, thanks Jay !!

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

for the stock replacement gaskets FEL-PRO Part # MS93160 Works well.

sweetmelissa

Yup,,, ordered them with the injectors !!!

I will also need new O-rings for the fuel lines,, right ??
And should also disconnect the pos battery terminal,, right ??

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...96537&cmpid=cj

it comes with 2 extra one real large and a real small one you can toss, for 85-88 cold start injector.

Not a bad idea to disconnect the battery.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Negative on that, remove the negative battery cable.

If the positive cable is being disconnected with the negative still connected bad things can happen. Such as touching the wrench to the fender and creating a smoke & burn show.

RBob.

sweetmelissa

YIKES !!!!! What was I thinking,,........

Thanks RBob !!!!

Richboll

Looking forward to hearing how this worked out. Good luck with it.

sweetmelissa

This job is easier said than done !!!!! Had to remove other stuff just to get at the runner bolts especially the passenger side lower runner bolt just behind the throttle body which was not even visible and a complete bi*#h to get to. The throttle body has to come off and the fuel lines attached to the rails were a nightmare,,, managed to get them off without moving the "alternator".. I'm 3 1/2 hours into it and haven't installed the new injectors yet.. That's next,, after a good cleaning of the manifold and of course the plenum and runners.. A lot to remember when I put this all back together because so much **** had to be unplugged or removed or disconnected.. (back hurts).. Some people may be able to do this job in record time but this is my first time doing it and I gotta say some of it is a friggin nightmare,,, not to scare anyone but,, truthfully,, it is a challenge.. I'm hoping to have this all wrapped up today and this car better run like a freakin dream or I'm gonna be soooo pissed ......

When I put the new injectors in should I hear a click when pushing the fuel rail down to seat them or is that only with the injectors that have a clip,,( no clip on these) ???

Anyone want to add anything here while I'm this far into the job that may be helpful ???

TP, thank you for posting up all the pics and info,,,, I actually had to bring my laptop out to the garage and come back here to figure out a few things along the way... THANKS !!!!!

Also, read about a guy who did this job and he said it took 6 hours to do it properly,,, I believe he installed the regular stock injectors again....

I'm back at it today !!!!!

Meliss

sweetmelissa

This job is easier said than done !!!!! Had to remove other stuff just to get at the runner bolts especially the passenger side lower runner bolt just behind the throttle body which was not even visible and a complete bi*#h to get to. The throttle body has to come off and the fuel lines attached to the rails were a nightmare,,, managed to get them off without moving the "alternator".. I'm 3 1/2 hours into it and haven't installed the new injectors yet.. That's next,, after a good cleaning of the manifold and of course the plenum and runners.. A lot to remember when I put this all back together because so much **** had to be unplugged or removed or disconnected.. (back hurts).. Some people may be able to do this job in record time but this is my first time doing it and I gotta say some of it is a friggin nightmare,,, not to scare anyone but,, truthfully,, it is a challenge.. I'm hoping to have this all wrapped up today and this car better run like a freakin dream or I'm gonna be soooo pissed ......

When I put the new injectors in should I hear a click when pushing the fuel rail down to seat them or is that only with the injectors that have a clip,,( no clip on these) ???

Anyone want to add anything here while I'm this far into the job that may be helpful ???

TP, thank you for posting up all the pics and info,,,, I actually had to bring my laptop out to the garage and come back here to figure out a few things along the way... THANKS !!!!!

Also, read about a guy who did this job and he said it took 6 hours to do it properly,,, I believe he installed the regular stock injectors again....

I'm back at it today !!!!!

Meliss

sweetmelissa

Finished up yesterday and my new bosch 3's are in and everything is clean and back together,, took less time putting it back together..... Now the moment I've been waiting for...........Fired up the car and let it run a few minutes then FINALLYYYYYYYY went for a cruise... there is definitely a difference,,, my car runs smoother now and has much better throttle response,, I was surprised at how well these injectors are compared to my stock ones....I'm really glad I did this job now it was worth every minute of it.. I only drove it about 20 minutes because it was wet out and I don't drive it in the rain or winter but I couldn't help myself I was too excited to see how it would run......Today it is pouring out so it's in garage but tomorrow it will be nice and I can't wait to go out and have some fun with it.... I will say though,,,,, I wish I installed the bosch 3's alot sooner,,, so far they are awesome !!!!!

Southbay: Great injectors !!!!!!!!

southbay08

That is great to hear!!
Happy everything finally worked out for you.


www.southbayfuelinjectors.com
516-442-4707