CamaroMike

HONESTLY!

Those of you who have done auto to stick conversions, is it worth it? I mean, is the clutch and manual harder to launch at the drag strip? Are the quarter mile times that much better? Was the install as big a pain as it looks? Especially the master/slave cylinder for the clutch at the firewall! I have an 84 mechanical speedometer and the 4th Gen swap isn’t an option because I don't want to loose my $300 140 MPH speedometer! The retrofit T56 would necessitate cutting my Aluminum driveshaft and Random Tech torque arm. A TKO 5 speed would work with the torque arm and speedo, but requires cutting the driveshaft. All of that and I’m still not sure the shifter would look right in the interior. My auto works fine other than the normal fluid leaks and screwin with the TV cable for WOT shifts into third and fourth. I just seems that $4000 and time served for a stick might be marginally worth the effort. Just looking for some detailed opinions.

ZZ405

I personally haven't done the auto to manual switch as my camaro originally came with the t5. If you intend to do any amount of bracket racing you would be better off with the auto. It eliminates the human error involved with shifting which should give you more consistent ets. Other than that the manual vs auto debate is really personal preference. Would I pay $4k to switch? Hardly, one could buy another car (manual) for that price. Just my .02.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Of course.

Couldn't tell ya.

To me, no but I live to mod my car.

I put the master cylinder in a g-body and it wasn't that much work IMO.

So get an Abbot cable x or whatever it is, or swap to an electric dash w/ 140.

I'm not a huge fan of it when there are 4th gen t56's....

It fits perfectly if you use a production 4th gen trans.

That's with all brand new parts. Economize.

pskel350

JMD summed it up pretty well. the swap isnt hard at all, not even a days work. I love my 5 spd. i do worry about it lasting for a long time, especially since i drag with slicks on. the 5 spd is a blast to drive on the street, but at the track i wish i still had the automatic. I might even go back to an auto when i put the new engine in, since the 5 spd wont like the new power levels.

SSC

Much better all around. I wasent interested in a T56 swap but the WC t5 swap went in with no real problems of course I had a parts car to work from and a console peice that fit wasent hard to find . I might go back to an auto if I drag race seriously but I doubt it.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

You don't put a manual into a car to go faster at the drag strip, you keep an auto and put a nice stall into it.

Manual just makes the car a lot funner to drive around in.

MrDude_1

i was going to do what jmd did, but he beat me to it...

basicly swap in a 4thgen T56 and use a Xbox to run your speedo.

that covers the how

this is the why.

you dont do it for drag racing.. matter of fact, some drag racers go the other way around.... put in a auto... you do it because you like autos.... it makes it fun... or because you're road racing... or for fuel economy reasons... but mostly because its fun.

CamaroMike

TTT

300hpse

iTrader: (2)

I wanna do the swap because im tired of that overweight slush box undershifting and deciding what gear i should be in, in other words fun factor and control. Plus a 700r4 weighs about 100lbs more than a t5, not sure of t56. Autos are for old people or bracket racers IMO, not people who enjoy driving their car.

CamaroMike

That's a little close minded. I keep an auto mostly because I have spent $40,000 on my car and butchery is not an option! The install must be clean! I would do a manual swap but 4000 bucks for components to keep up with 420HP engine is a bit steep and the install would not be as clean as I would want it! I've done too many projects to know that a clean conversion is possible but very frustrating.

300hpse

iTrader: (2)

To each his own. I just like manuals better. Even if my install wasnt perfect, having something a little off is more than a fair trade for the pleasure i get from a manual.

MrDude_1

you know... thats not even over the T56s factory rating..... and a clean install can be had for FAR FAR FAR under 4k.


you're just not looking in the right places..... without poking around for the absolute best deal, it should be JUST under 2k.

you want the stuff from a factory LT1 style setup.. NOT the "aftermarket" one...

you could easily make the install look factory... or better... what exactly do you mean by "clean" anyway?

if need be, for stuff like the shifter hole, use a hole saw to make the corners then connect the corners with nice crisp straight cuts, file everything ect, then lay the boot down....... ect... and when you're done, everything will be done "clean", right, factory looking, more then strong enough to handle any abuse you give it, and still well under 4k... probly under 2k

CamaroMike

I'm just not willing to go with a used trans, g@d knows what you are getting! How was it treated. I.E. 16 Year Old Driver!!!!! Also, everyone knows that the LT1 cluch slips like a mother with slicks! Enter a McLeod Flyweel and Centerforce Clutch. Under 2K Hah! It's $1900 for a good tranny let alone the T56 crossmember, aftermarket shifter, scattershield, flywheel, clutch, master/slave cyl., interior boot / console lid, speedometer calibrator / conversion to cable drive, and possible torque arm cutting and driveshaft manipulation. Heck, then I have to move my driveshaft loop farther back, more cutting! No thanks. Don't get me wrong I would love to have a Stick but damn!

MrDude_1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33727


theres guys running 9 second times with the regularly available aftermarket clutches.



crossmember 70 - 100 new,
aftermarket shifter - 150 for hurst.
scattershield - i donno
flywheel - std LT1 included with trans.
clutch, master/slave cyl., interior boot / console lid - all included with trans.. but if not, can be had like new for almost nothing
speedometer calibrator / conversion to cable drive - $80 if you have elec speedo
possible torque arm cutting and driveshaft manipulation. -not needed.. stock ones bolt on.


so lets say you do it the hard way and spend the 1500 for just the trans... (100% rebuilt, dyno tested, quality components)

even if you spent a ton on the other parts, i dont see it reaching far over 2k... i mean, unless that scattershield and Xbox to run a cable speedo cost 1500, i dont see it happening.

CamaroMike

Trans 1900 with core charge!
Shifter 150
Scattershield 300
Flywheel 300
Cluch Assembly 350
Crossmember 100
Slave/Master Assebly 100
Speedo Drive Electric to Cable 200-300
Clutch Pedals 150
Various Interior Parts 200

Just about $3800 without shipping for a RELIABLE high performance setup!

SSC

A good install isnt hard to do some like mine you cant tell the car dident have a 5 speed factory, well I could have made the holes a bit nicer but I dont have a $40,000 car must be bling bling.

Back when I had swaped my untoched 700R4 and 3.42's in it was a very fun car especially going around this one turn here onto the HWY and flooring it well florring it in general was fun, much more of a hsle to manually shift the T5 now but still fun.

Mike if you really want a nice clean install just stick with what the factory put in it, an automatic. Have Pro Built build you a nice transmission, install it and call it a day.

25THRSS

this sums everything up

CamaroMike

For the most part I agree with that assesment but sticks are worth about .5 sec in the quarter over an automatic.

scottland

it DOES NOT cost 4 grand to swap from a auto to a manual to handle 420hp.

on ebay you can get a TKO swap kit for $1700, plus $100 for shipping,

so $1800.

-pedals don't cost $150, i don't know who is ripping you off. maybe $30 at the most, check the junkyards.
-a flywheel is $50 for a reman from napa, you don't need a fancy aftermarket flywheel for your clutch to grip.
-a good clutch and pressure plate is $250.
-the TKO comes with a shifter.
-it cost $40 to have a driveshaft resized.
-a bellhousing and hyldralic clutch linkage will cost about $60 from a junkyard, or someone parting out their car.
-crossmember will work with a tko, as well as the torque arm.

so,

$2,400ish

no where near $4000, and a tko will hold up to 420hp.

25THRSS

where did you come up with that?

89' RS/blue

Well first off im going to say in my opinion manual trannys are 10 times better than autos. Think of it like this, all the really fast cars only come with 6 speed trannys,(Z06,Viper,etc). So they have to be better. Probably the major advantage with automatics is fuel economy, b/c now all the trannys are computer controlled. Manual trannys are considerably quicker than automatics. Plus they are SO much easier to work on. I sort of think autos are for lazy people who dont want to have to shift, and also i think people stray from manuals b/c they cant use a clutch for their life. Also they are much more fun than automatics IMO. So i'd say yes a auto to manual trans swap would be worth it.

scottland

thats 180* from the truth.

manuals get better mileage. and its for the same reason that manual cars are slightly faster, i wouldn't say .5", but they are faster. manuals are more effiecent at transferring powers to the wheels than an automatic is. much more power is lost through a automatic, therefore it is not as effiecent. so manuals get better mileage, because they can more effiecently make use of the power the engine is producing. manuals also tend to be faster, because they can get more power to the wheels than an automatic can, more power=faster.

automatics are more consistant, and easier to drive.

manuals are more challenging to drive, but properly driven, are faster, just not as consistant.

89' RS/blue

Well actually automatics are better for emissions requirements Thats why back in the 80s for some time you couldnt get a corvette with a 5 speed in california, b/c it wouldnt meet emissions standards. But i do agree that manual trannys transmit power and torque better. I've done complete tear downs of many manuals trannys and autos and manuals are much simpler with much less to go wrong. Autos lose more power too, b/c of having to go through several multiple disc clutches which can have more slippage than a conventional clutch would on a manual tranny. I wouldnt say manuals are hard to drive, just that most people learn with automatics. Manuals are always faster than autos when properly driven

25THRSS

Or you could just take a trip to your local dragstrip where half the cars their will put an *** whippin on any of the cars you just mentioned and they have an auto. So by your logic autos have to be better. Noone has mentioned the torque multiplication that an automatic transmission has either.

25THRSS

manual of auto, it has absolutely no effect on emmisions at all. thats a load of crap.

"Manuals are always faster than autos when properly driven"

That's just a load of crap too.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

If you've spent 40k on your car, then 4k is peanuts for a complete and "correct" swap.


I've seen back to back T56 rebuilds come in that were different and one was clearly more beat-on. But, if you want your **** perfect, you might as well go through it yourself. There's nothing special about a new box because once you've driven it, it's used.

I drove my T56 behind a 408 before I bought it. It's freshly rebuilt, I know who did the work, and I paid a grand. Your extra $900 is a crock and a waste.


So you started this thread to demean those who use used parts?

Oh, and I guarantee my swap is under 2k, but I went about things a little differently than most and my 95 T56 has mechanical linkage / fork.

25THRSS

actually an automatic with a lockup converter given the same gearing as a manual will have the same gas mileage. The only reason people think they get better mileage is because recently transmissions like the t56 have an insane overdrive ratio allowing cars to cruise at lower rpm resulting in better mileage. If you really want to argue you could say an auto can shift faster than any human being can manually or an auto multiplies torque through the TORQUE CONVERTER better than a manual.

scottland

i was trying not too get into to much detail, but a lot of what you said above makes no sense.

autos aren't better for emissions. your going to need to justify that one. (although i already know you can't).

manuals are very very easy to drive, but harder to launch properly at the track. for someone who is just used to punching the gas with an automatic, they will find launching a manual car slightly harder.

and autos lose their power mostly through the torque converter.

a torque converter has 3 main parts, 2 that transfer power, the pump is conected to the flexplate, and it slings transmissions fluid around the outside of the torque converter, just like your washing machine in the spin cycle. this fluid hits the fins on the turbine (which is connected to the transmission input shaft) and turns it. much like a water wheel on the side of a cottage.

the 3rd main part a torque converter simply returns the fluid to the pump.

that is how power is transfered from the engine to transmission in an automatic.

as you can imagine, lots of power is lost in the torque converter, and it is not nearly as efficent as a clutch/flywheel style setup.

clutchs are very effiecent at transferring power, so the hydralic operate clutch packs in an auto don't have much of a factor on a properly operating transmission.

25THRSS

When torque multiplication is required, the stator above reverses the direction of impeller rotation. A one-way clutch prevents the force of the fluid from turning the stator opposite the impeller and turbine by holding itself motionless on the stator shaft.

As the fluid flows from the stator to the impeller, the impeller has another opportunity to accelerate the same fluid. The fluid leaves the impeller with close twice the energy it had the first time and exerts greater force on the turbine.

The flow of fluid through the impeller, to the turbine, through the stator, and back through the impeller is the vortex flow. At high impeller speed and low turbine speed. the vortex flow velocity is the sum of the impeller produced velocity, plus the velocity of the fluid returning from the turbine and stator. It is vortex flow that gives us torque multiplication.

By torque multiplication, there is more torque on the turbine shaft than the engine is putting out because the vortex fluid is accelerated more than once. Torque multiplication is obtained at the sacrifice of turbine rotation. Actually, it's no different from the mechanical advantage which your get from gearing down. You gain torque by sacrificing motion.

Torque multiplication takes place anytime the turbine is turning at less than 9/10 impeller speed. As the turbine speed increases in relation to the impeller, torque multiplication decreases.

Not only does a properly stalled torque converter allow you to launch at exactly the rpm you want and put you right in the power band, but it also multiplies torque extremely well, much better than any manual transmission. One could argue that whatever you lose from "slippage" you easily make back up with torque multiplication, not to mention consistany and tunability.

CamaroMike

I knew that 40k number would get some people in a huff because you think I am rich! So go f yourself! I spent six years scraping every cent on two jobs as a mechanic and parts seller to pay for my car! It came at a large personal sacrifice and with a HOUSE, two vehicles, and a marriage to support four grand isn't in the budget right now! So to all those who are jealous of someone who can work hard and save kiss my reverse end! To those of you whom are not involved I aplogize for such a huffy post but jeeeezzzz! I really get frustrated when people are like "you spent alot of money, just spend some more ,your rich I don't have to work for it"!

89' RS/blue

well if autos are SO much better than why dont they have them stock on performance cars (Z06,M3,Viper,etc), instead of manuals? plus there are about a thousand things that can go wrong in a automatic, a lot less in a manual.

DJsyclone

If someone wanted the best of an automatic and a manual, wouldn't a shifter like the B&M Megashifter or Hurst Dual Gate 2 serve that purpose? Not counting the mechanical advantages of a manual transmission.

Apeiron

Nobody's saying automatics are better, they're saying automatics are better for drag racing. The cars you mentioned are better suited for road racing, where a manual is preferred.

posbird87

ok breath everyone has just been trying to give you helpful info and find you deals. if you were a mechanic... shouldnt you know whats better suited for what manual for road racing, auto for drag. of course it all depends on the driver. you dont just mash the gas in an auto... you hold the brake and bring the car to the desired rpms then mash the gas... same with a manual except you use a clutch. i personally prefer an auto. mainly cause im fat and have big legs so usin a clutch i feel like im twinkle toeing around. if there was more room and i didnt squish my nuts everytime i had to hit a clutch i wouldnt mind them

89' RS/blue

Yes i do completely agree they are MUCH better for drag racing, i mean everything uses them. As to Manuals for road racing. So both transmissions have there advantages, enough said.

pasky

Well, not to put anyone down who drives a automatic, but my father had always told me they made automatics for women :P. Dunno, I can't say which is better for the track because i've never went down one, there is one here in town but i've never gone down the track. I love manuals because I can drop the gears and I feel in control, great for cornering and getting power when ya need it.

posbird87

you can downshift in an auto too.... no rule that says you have to keep it in drive

and if autos are for women, and manuals are for men... does that make manual valve body autos and auto-sticks like in old VW's for transexuals

pasky

Haha, I have no idea man. I just thought it might spring up interesting conversation on how auto transmissions really came under development or something. As far as downshifting, I have no clue on autos man, never drive them, all I know is I can control my power band with just my clutch, can drop the gear and upshift a gear whenever I want. Not putting auto's down, just not my cup of tea .

EDIT: Now that I think about it, auto's are better for the tracks, I doubt any human being can shift faster than a racing automatic transmission.

Although I heard if you want good times with an auto it isn't just gunning the gas, have to treat it like a manual, give it gas then let off when it switches gears then floor it again, but hell if I know, just going by word of mouth here.

When it comes to road racing, nothing beats a manual thats for sure, braking to come to a hairpin turn, then drop the gear to get a nice boost coming out of it, im pretty sure manual is the transmission of choice for those.

25THRSS

You can downshift or upshift an auto whenever you want, just has no clutch. If you don't drive autos how do you know it's not your cup of tea? I drive both on a regular basis. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but the clear fact is that if you drag race an auto is far superior. In road racing a manual is far superior. Like I said, go to the track and you will see the light. Anyone who makes a blanket statement like manuals are always faster no matter what are ignorant. It's really preference, like the guy who said autos are for women, obviously he prefers an auto and isnt heavily into drag racing or he would never have made that statement. It can go either way, you just need to decide which suits your needs better. To me I like autos better because they usually give better 60 foots which means they are usually faster down the 1/4 and they are way more consistant, which keeps me racing all night long. I also prefer them in stop and go traffic. If I was going to get into scca racing I would prefer a manual to help keep me in the power band better around corners and so that I could use the engine to help me brake. This is an old, beat to death arguement that people really need to decide on their own which is better for them.

EDIT: I never let off the gas when shifting an auto, and anyone who says an auto take no skill to drive either has never drven a high horse car. They require a descent amount of driving ability no matter what anyone says. Just a little fact, did you know F1 just so happens to use automatic transmissions now?

pasky

Ummm I was not trying to flame or anything, like I said, it was what I heard, don't get me wrong, i've driven automatics, what I meant was i've never owned them, so yea, I can say thier not my cup of tea. I'll always take a stick over a auto. Nothing wrong with Autos or people who drive them. As far as the F1, ummm, yay? Good for them? .

I really could care less, like I said, im not putting anyone down, just giving my opinion. And I really thought that was how they dragged autos, they floor it up until it shifts, let off the gas, and after the shift floor it again, sorry if im incorrect, I never said this fact was set in stone, only what I was told. Educate me otherwise.

25THRSS

I wasn't directing anything towards you pasky. Sorry if it came off that way. I'm just tired of people who don't know **** about what their talking about try to say how much better a manual is. Sure some magazine might have ran a couple tenths faster from the factory, but to tell you the truth I have never ever seen an auto tranny with a matched stall or anything like that stock. What can you do to a manual besides make it stronger? Not much, but there are plenty of things you can do to a stock auto to make it faster, stronger, and more consistant. Ide definitely much rather take a manual for some type of top speed run or highway racing or something like that, but the vast majority of people I know or on this site prefer drag racing, and for that an auto would be better suited for them I feel. Once again, I am not flaming anyone. If your opinion is that manuals are more fun, hey I'll give you that, but please don't try to say they are better. Oh and I don't let off when I shift and I haven't ever heard of that either. I think some people might do that if you have nitrous or something to keep the nitrous from spraying during the shifts if they don't have a window switch, but other than that I don't see why you would let off.

pasky

Okie, no offense taken I think we can all pretty much agree that an auto is more suited for drag racing than a manual.

SSC

Not every Mechanic knows whats better for what, we spend so of our time trying to fix other peoples broken crap hobby stuff like drag racing isnt top priority.



Good point though, since you are a mechanic and sell parts you should be able to rebuild a T56 and get the parts at a discount to boot. Core T56 cheap, parts discounted, time, when ever money allows. I assume theres no urgency to remove your current trans?

Mike92RS

The reason I prefer a straight-drive over an automatic is the throttle response. I've seen auto's in cars like Acura's and VW's where you can move the shifter to the side and bump the gears up and down or whatever, but they are still fluid coupled drivetrains that dont respond like a mechanically coupled drivetrain. Except for the SMG is my roomate's '03 BMW M3, which is just badass . This is just my opinion though, since I'm more interested in autocross or roadracing instead of drag racing, so I'm more concerned with things like throttle lift over shift consistency.

- Mike

nick harmon

read car and driver sometime. i know they have top notch drivers, but still, the manuals are always faster than the autos. about a few 10ths faster IIRC. ive read many car and driver tests, this is ALWAYS the case. the manuals are quicker than the autos.
now for your average joe, yes, by all means, go with the auto for consistincy. just stateing the facts as ive read them over the years. on similarly equiped factory cars, the manual shift SHOULD be a tad quicker than the auto shift. simple as that.

nick harmon

scratch my earlier post plz. i see this has been covered now. sorry guys, wasnt paying attention.

scottland

yeah, aren't they using steering wheel mounted controls to up and dowshift? kinda like the paddal shifters?

25THRSS

nope, they used to, but it's fully auto now. No driver input I don't think. Although, I will say that even though they are automatically controlled, I'm not 100% sure, but their setup is more like an electronically controlled manual than a conventional automatic tranny.

Mike92RS

From my understanding, the 'automatic' transmissions in these race cars are acutally SMG's (sequential manual gearbox). These are similar to what are in bikes as apposed to a traditional automatic with torque converter. Because SMG's are still mechanically coupled (no torque converter), they are able to provide the desired throttle response and can even shift quicker than a typical automatic transmission(1). These kind of transmissions get pretty expensive though, the one in my roomate's BMW was around $15k i believe.

- Mike




(1) "However, because a tiptronic transmission is an automatic transmission at its core, it still has the torque converter and usually does not shift as quickly." -> http://auto.howstuffworks.com/sequential-gearbox2.htm

posbird87

yeah.... its not the transmissions fault on that one

j/k