icebird_1981

i see your point but the way u are compareing it is wrong man.
first there is not that many stock imports that can take a stock l98, also back in the thirdgen days the l98 was the $hit. take the lg4, now its nothing compared to the new cars but back when it first came out compared to other cars it was good.
and yes every one knows there is some 350s out that are just jokes>thats y people dont put those 350 in! u r compareing the worst 350 engine to the best v6 engine. so yes a 350 is worth it if u want power>unless u plan to drop the worst 350 in and leave it stock

Ovrclck350

Take a LG4 w/ 190 HP and a LH0 w/ 190 and see who gets better gas mileage.

It takes torque to move these cars.

I'm not dissing the V6....I still own one (for sale) but it's just a simple fact.

Granted technolog has gotten better, but you have to look at the time these were built. You say a V8 isn't SH*T unless it has 350HP, ok. Then I say that your 3.1/3.4/3.8 isn't **** unless it has 245. That's what Nissan Maxima's are pushing now days. You can talk all the **** you want, you can fight V8-V6 you want, but if there's one thing I've noticed, it's that everyone here on the V6 board is all gung-ho on V6's, but yet always yearn for the V8, and when they get it, they dis the V6. I'm not hating on the V6, just stating the facts.

V6's have less torque, therefore the have to put forth more effort to move these heavy cars.

3.1=191CID/140HP=.73HP/liter
L98=350CID/245HP=.70HP/liter
LB9=305CID/230HP=.75HP/liter
L03=305CID/170HP=.56HP/liter

3.1=191CID/185 ft/lbs=.97ft/lbs/liter
L98=350CID/345ft/lbs=.985ft/lbs/liter
LB9=305CID/300ft/lbs=.983ft/lbs/liter
L03=305CID/255ft/lbs=.84ft/lbs/liter


One thing is for sure. The 305TBI gus lost out on BOTH categories.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

hell yeah they did

the heads those L03's came with cant flow worth a damn

sure i have a 305, but it sure as hell doesnt have those swirl port heads

nor does it have the restrictive exhaust manifolds

nor the peanut cam

brobert

I guess your right, cant compare an old v8 from the past to a modern v6. As far as wanting a v8, i dont. It would be MUCH easier for me to get a 350 then finding a 3.4 would be.

'84TA w/L69

before anyone says i have a bias let me state some facts. i own/drive daily a '92 3.1L f-bird. it has gone almost 15 thousand miles without an oil change. she will still beat a lot of the 305 f-bodys and will still push me into my seat and will still go over 100 mph while still getting 27mpg and spinning the tires. i also have an 88 2.8L f-bird. it will also spin the tires, i dont know too much else about it because i have driven it only once after i bought it because it is a parts car. i also own an '84 TA w/L69. yes, that would be a 305 HO. the HO stands for high output. it is in bad condition, but will still spin the tires and is a little sluggish off the line however. and just so you dont think that i am bias in any way shape or form i also own an original '69 Z28 with the original 302. havent ever driven it as it is a work in progress and will be for some time. all the cars are automatics with 700r4s except the TA with a th350 and the camaro with a 4-speed. i am planning the 3.4L swap with the 3.1L. i am also planning on swapping everything on the L69 over to a 383 or 355 block. i am also planning on swapping in a 400 or bigger small block into the camaro and parting out, like i said, the 2.8. i believe that the best engine is entirely dependent on your needs. you can do the research and ask people who own the cars. but you'll make the rite choice if you continually search the boards. if you ask it, someone will answer.

The_Raven

Wow I just went through this same discussion on s-series.org about doing my hybrid turbocharged swap vs a '96+ Vortec 5.7 swap, I still stand by my sediments that the V6 can be made to work well, very well, sure I could have swapped a SBC into my truck, in fact that's why I bought my truck, for daily driving/towing/SBC swap, but then decided to do something different and more along the lines of what I will be doing in my other car for some research, and get used to the way this design works, and I did it very inexpensivley, I didn't want to be just another SBC S-series.

I get more respect and the "holy **** factor" than I would have, had I swapped in a SBC, I could have had the SBC and tranny for free, but it just wasn't appealing anymore. A firend of mine with a SBC S-10 and I ran, and I was gaining on him when I shifted to 3rd, if he gets his truck running again by Friday we'll be running each other at the track, which was the plan last week, but he tore up his cam a few days before, and the track closed just as I was going to pull into the staging lanes due to weather.
This Friday is supposed to be nice, so I will be there.

dennis6

The camaro and firebird perfomance legacy is based on the V8 aside from the TTA. I don't think even a 350 hp 2.8 running 12's will get as much respect as a 550hp 350. The 550 hp would be cheaper too.

S10's were never V8 vehicles and the 4.3 is a good motor, no reason to swap in a V8.

Doward

OK... comparing a 3700lbs 2nd gen with a 185hp 400 to a lighter 3.4 is kinda wrong... for one, doing just true dual exhaust will turn that 400 right past the 3.4.

If you're rebuilding 2 engines... one a 400, the other a 3.4 (like 207ci?) which will end up with more power, for less $$??

There is no replacement for displacement. Short of forced induction.

There is only one thing wrong with the 60 degree V6. NO aftermarket. This is more aggrevating than working on a 455 Buick... *grumbles*

As said, though, some of us on the boards are working on fixing that.

The_Raven

deniss, it's not a 4.3 those are dogs IMO, poor design when you have to add a balace shaft (which I know is only on the '92 and up 4.3s...), but still belong in the scrap heap IMO.

My build is also a 660, that once tuned will go against just about any V8, I don't really care if I win or lose, but will give a good run, ok, except for those running single digits LOL.

And if the truck doesn't give a good run, my other 660 once built (in my project car) will.

Ok, heres a question, which will get more respect?

A V8 making 800 HP or a 660 making 600HP?

I can already hang or be in front of quite a few V8s around, I just hope the weather is good this week, I need some time slips, and some tuning time with objective results.

redraif

This is LT1guy on Redraif's logon...and I have to ask, how old are you? Not to knock anybody with a TPI 350, but performance wise all of the thirdgens, except the TTA, were the underdogs when compared to the turbo Buicks and LX 5.0 Mustangs running around then. Stock for stock, either would waste the typical 350 IROC, and both were easier and cheaper to modify. For less than $1000, you could put either car in the twelves, and not with nitrous either...you'd have to spend far more than that on the TPI to get the same results. Don't get me wrong, I love the cars, but they weren't the pavement-ripping supercars that some people today seem to believe. They have as much or more POTENTIAL as anything made in that era, but they were unfortunately more about image than straight line performance.

TomP

Damn, this is one hell of a bitch fest, eh?

brobert

This is ture, i have had an 83 0r 84 ( cant remember right now ) lx 5.0 and a 98 gt and both of them would out run any iroc but they were not as good as far as cornering.

dennis6

They did put a Vortec Supercharger on a 4.3 and it held 500 hp. It was in October 01 or 02. I don't remember which magazine. I do agree having to have a balance shaft is pretty stupid. They should have done a little more than chop two cylinders off the 350 and call it a 4.3.

A 60 degree V6 putting off 600 HP will get you more respect as a engine builder than a 800 HP V8. I would rather build a 1200HP V8 though, or you could build a 800HP 305. LOL Any of those will bring alot of respect. I just don't understand why people invest more money for less power. If you want to do it just to do it great. However, there are a few people pushing the 3.4 as a means for the average person to have a performance vehicle, and this is just not true. It takes an expierenced engine builder to pull any serious power out of a 60 degree V6.

'84TA w/L69

wow, tomp, that really helped things along.

just kidding. you just said what im sure most of us were thinking.

brobert

This post has gone WAY off base since it was started

TomP

Heh, I figured everyone could use a laugh; myself included.

CamaroRS385hp

Daishi - i dont know if you own a 2.8 camaro yet or you were thinking about buying one...but since you're obviously interested in power, don't get the 2.8. you can find 3.1's for the exact same price, and 5.0's in good condition for not much more. if you're going to shell out a couple grand on a camaro, dont get the 2.8 if you want speed.

(lol bet what i said sounds off-topic, since the actual topic of the thread hasn't been touched since like the 4th post.)

LT1guy

iTrader: (1)

Or better yet...find an ex-5.0 car that someone has already swapped to a decent small block (350, 383, 406, etc). You'll be that much ahead of the game, and swaps are more common than you'd think. Not many people rebuild 305s.

Ovrclck350

This thread got way off topic

87CamaroMan

Wait I am confused now... I do not have posi but when i floor it when moving or spin out its 2 tire marks every time... but I know it switches from on wheel to the other when needed.. I got stuck in a snow drift and watched them.. I have no clue if my rear is stock or not... The car was butcherd when I got it.. and when in park and the rear is jacked up, if you turn one wheel by hand the other spins the opposite way.. what kinda rear would that be.


edit: I didn't see there was a 2nd page to this thread so you may have stopped talking about the rear thing...

brobert

Look at the code on the rear, here is a chart to help you.Im not getting back into the rear posi conversation again..

Ovrclck350

ok, sorry i didn't have time to respond to your email.

If you look at that chart, it lists the codes for the types of gears put into the units. If you have Posi, you still have a RPO of G80 in which case the 2HR 3.42's would have been used, but you'd still have an RPO of G80.

Doward

Sounds like you've got a G92/G80 IROC or T/A rear end.

1badTTA

V6 with a factory Posi

1badTTA

As for the F-Bodys with 2.8's, they are a descent engine for longevity and reliability, but like any other engine ever made, once you start modifying them they won't be nearly as reliable since they are doing more than they were designed to do (and most people will end up overlooking something in the list of modifications such as fuel or timing requirements).

As has been stated earlier, if you are looking for lots of power, the 2.8 isn't the way to go. You will be able to get roughly the gas mileage out of other larger engines that put out more power. Needless to say if you plan on buying a 2.8 and modifying it to make as much power as a stock 350TPI then you should really start looking at the 350TPI cars to buy. If you are getting a smoking deal on the 2.8 car (buying it off your mother with 30,000 miles for $1500) then go for it but don't plan on doing a few bolt ons and running 13's and being able to drive it for the next 200,000 miles with no problems.

If you are serious about an engine swap and want a V6, look into the 3800 series II engines. They can be had both NA and Supercharged, will put out WAY more power than a 2.8 will and can be modified with great results.

Just my $.02

brobert

HE originaly was talking about people not telling the diff between a ta and a firebird. Then it was switched into the v6 or v8 post as you can see. But oh well that convo is over with now lol

1991tealRSt-topGuy

ok smart guy, show me where i said it was a performance engine

now that i stopped you from putting words in my mouth, i can show you many a 350 that make mega power

since when were honda's part of this conversation?

hondas CAN be quick because they are light

they dont need much power to be quick

thats a moot point, because we are talking about 3500 pound cars

3rd gens arent light, sorry to let you in on that fact

fastest i ever heard of a 660 running was low 14's

show me some 660's that can beat modded 350's

then we can talk

Ovrclck350

But he's right....that is one (well 1500 actually) V6 with factory Posi.

1badTTA

Actually 1550 plus 5 pilot cars, but close enough.

Next thing someone will try saying that all Trans Ams came from the factory with V8's

brobert

And the firebird was not avalible in the color red untill the 4th gen!

Ovrclck350

I was going to put 1550 but that 50 has been dabated back and forth. Personally I believe 1550, but....I didn't feel like arguing.



This older guy driving an El Camino asked me what I had in mine after I got beat one day. When I told him 305, he informed me that my car is NOT a real Z28 because ALL Z28's came with 350's.

Doward

Look up the '79 Red Bird...

I really hope you were being sarcastic

brobert

Of course i was

1badTTA

So all the first gens (67-69) that are red were repainted....LOL

G0D I love misinformation!!!

Edit: Why is the word "g0d" bleeped out on this board?

dennis6

Good question...

Pyroja

Hey folks, I'm new to the boards. Heck, I'm new to the realm of Camaros. In fact, the car I speak of will be my first car.

A mechanic who lives next door ofered me a great deal on a 1985 Camaro with a 2.8L V6. See, his ex-wife wants himto sell it for $1500, but he says for me he'll let me have it for $700. Not only that, but he won't sell it to me until he's got it to pass smog. Seems like a sweet deal to me, eh? Granted, there's a Z28 parked nearby for $700, too.. But any Z28 that's sat outside for 2 weeks for $700.. And HASN'T sold must have something ***-awful wrong with it. The V6, I know, runs.

What I was wanting to know is.. Well, is there anything I should really know right off the bat? Anything to do once I get it to make sure it's in top running order? Again, this will be my first car, and I'm more a computer geek than a car nut (I hope to change that!) so this is all quite new to me.

Also, as I am a 16 year old male, I feel obligated to ask what are the simplest things I can do to(what will soon be) my car to make it.. Well, a little bit faster. I have the feeling 135hp just won't be enough. Actually, I get that feeling because my grandma's '94 Lumina has the 3.1L V6 in it, hence.. My grandma's sedan goes faster than my Camaro I want to change that. Any suggestions, comment,s whatever, I don't care.. Any input would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

87CamaroMan

I know if I had my camaro when I was 16 I probably would be roadkill (if it was V8) My advice would be. Think about how much you trust you driving skills they probably arn't that developed yet. You should start out with the v6 and do a few mods. There not made for racing really just to drive around. And you gotta think about what area you live in if you live in a area that snows. Your not going anywhere in the winter with a v8. I drove my v6 everywhere in the winter. got stuck only once ( I was on my way to the tire shop to get my winters put on)... And V8's drink the gas. What you have to do is take all of you pro's and con's and analize them.. Just don;t buy a car because its gotta bigger engine and has more power. You should also look into what kinda condition both cars are in ex: body, frame, suspension, tranny, I think you get the Idea. camaro's and firebirds are know to blow trannys from 87-1/2 and down. Are you just looking for a dependable car that you can somewhat show off, or a car that you can just show off and "look cool" doing it. I am only 19 and I had to prove to myself that I could be responsobile enough to go from a 2.8lt-3.4lt.

If you buy the 2.8lt you can drop a 3.4lt into it thoes run stock around 160hp and about 200lbs tq its the same basic block just a larger bore and longer stroke. I am a "computer geek also" I only really started being a gear head for the past year and already changed 2 trannys and 1 engine.

Anyway don't want to sound like anyones parent here... Just trying to help.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

sorry, cant agree with that above statement........if you really want a V8, get a V8, you'll save yourself a ton of headaches (and heartaches for that matter) in the long run

CamaroRS385hp

yeah, you were talking about how it'd suck to get beat by your grandma's car...with a 2.8, all granny cars will blow you away. pretty much all cars period will beat you. you might be able to take some small ricers, and some geo's, but for the most part you'll get beat by almost anything that is actually racing you. i just bought an '87 Iroc-Z, so I have 225hp, 330 lbs/torque, but i still get beat by way too many things on the road. to make a 2.8 pump out the numbers of a 5.7, you'd have to pour THOUSANDS into the car, and then when you got there (if it's even possible to) you still would be slower than the new sedans out on the road. my advice - pass up the deal on the 2.8....you don't want a daily driver for $700 anyway. look around for a v-8, preferably one with a 350. at least then you'll have respectable power, since it seems like what you're looking for is power. trust me, my first camaro was a 3.1.....it seemed fine for a while, but if you want power, it gets old real quick. that's why i owned the 3.1 for a little over a year, then got the 5.7

brobert

Why is it that so many people come on here and say, "hello, i was gonna buy a "V6" cam/fire, are they good for racing"? Dont you think if they were good for racing that no one woulda bought the z28s and ta's? DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or they say hey i want a v8 so ill put in a 4.3 cuz its almost a v8, Uh NO. If you want a v8 then buy one.Also look at the prices on these cars. Near me the v6 counterparts are selling for $1500 and up with over 150K on them. Think about the work going from v6 to v8.Get what you want the first time.I got very lucky with mine, the lot thought it needed a new computer . Turned out it had a vac hose completely missing. Only problem i had with it so far was the coil went. But i had an old mustang coil laying around so i put that in.

DJsyclone

The V6 part of this board does a lot of V6 bashing.

brobert

Im not bashing, i am very happy with my car the way it is. I joke sometimes about getting beat by a school bus but its just a joke. It just gets annoying how these people come on the v6 bord and ask "should i get a v8?" We should be disscusing cams,injection,who the hell has headders, etc.

TomP

Yeah right? I'm confused about it too.

1badTTA

Being 16 years old, I would recomend the V-6 Camaro. You will have a descent looking car that the insurance is much cheaper on and will do a better job of keeping you out of trouble. The last thing you want is a car that either you cant afford to drive due to insurance and gas prices, can't drive because of getting too many tickets in, or can't drive because it is always broke (the V-8 Camaro he speaks of doesn't sound too reliable). We all want the most power possible, but for a minute just think with the big head and not the little one. In my opinion it isn't worth the extra expense of having an underpowered V8 instead of an underpowered V6. Neither car will be very fast if all stock and in this situation the V6 would be a much better option.

JMHO

'84TA w/L69

i agree very much with 1badtta. i was 14 when i bought my first car, a '69 Z28. it needs a lot of work and insurance will be killer on me util im like in my lat 40s anyways. then when i got closer to 16 i started to think things out. gas prices, insurance prices, tickets, etc.... me and my dad looked at a lot of v8s and v6s. i chose a v6 and figured the cash i save now on things can be put into a v8 later. i love my v6 and will have it till the day i die. but still be careful, trust me you can get tickets in a v6. i dont care what some of the people in the v6 forum say. they are just bored and dont have lives, so they come here to bash us with v6s....even though i own both v6s and v8s. so, i guess im an exception.

Pyroja

Thanks for the input guys. I read the readme post and I read about TomP's TuneUp... Seems like alot of stuff to do, but I think the experience would be worth it. I've pretty much decided on the V6 Camaro because.. Well, for one, it's a car that's only $700. It's in generally good shape (I drove it once), and it does look cool (Paint could use fixing...). I figure, if I can do the tune up and make sure the engine is running as well as I can get it, and I make the interior all nice and clean, and I generally ge tthe car in pretty good condition, I could sell it for a profit and go buy something else.

Basically, it seems like a good car to start with because I'll learn basic mechanic-type things, and I'll learn how to maintain a car and the like. I can take the experience there (and the profit from selling the car) and apply it to something better (Like.. A V8 Camaro? Or one of the 4th Gens with the 3.8 V6? Those look nice! Then again, I'm 16.. I'm open to almost any kind of car, heh).

I saw someone mention that a $700 daily driver wasn't good... Why? I've seen worse cars than this for twice the price (Believe me, I have. My dad and I do web advertising for used car dealers.). Completely ignoring the fact that it's a Camaro and looks cool and all.. It's a decent car fo $700. I'd bite at that even if it were an old Honda or something. Maybe.

But back to the point... Thanks for the info. I anxiously await finally purchasing the Camaro and learning my way around under the hood.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

i had to suffer with a weak-kneed 3.1 for 3 years

it sucked, it couldnt get out of its own way

show me someone who can smoke my 305 with a 660 with the price of the 660 mods less than what it cost me to do my swap, and i will eat my hat

doesnt look like i will be eating my hat anytime soon

1badTTA

You guys need to quit knocking the V6's, remember tha fastest and quickest 3rd Gen was a V6!!!!! Said car also has twice the book value of the rest of the 3rd Gens also. And yes I am predjudiced towards the TTA's, but face it, it is still a V6 that eats V8's for breakfast lunch and dinner.

1991tealRSt-topGuy

i never said anything bad about the 3.8 did i?

thats an apples and oranges issue my friend, apples and oranges

i'm tyring to help these guys save face, before they make the same mistake i made

and yes, thats where my bitterness for the 660 comes from, the mistake i made in buying one

The_Raven

So, How much do you have in your swap?