Xophertony

anyone notice that the washer fluid and coolent reservoirs are missing from the BBS designs photos?

AM91Camaro_RS

hadn't noticed that but probably because i'm used to not seeing them. even if they do have to come out, its not big deal.

The_Raven

The windsheild washer fluid resevoir is still there.

Maybe a relocated coolant resevoir? Didn't some of the later 3rd gens have it in the nose of the car?

kretos

nope only 4th gens, a few members on the board have converted over though

Project: 85 2.8 bird

I'm using those small $9 generic overflow bottles for my coolant & washer duties. Painted body color helps hide them even more

ScrapMaker

I see a lot of talk, but where are the dyno results of the stock motor with the turbo kit just "bolted on?"

If you're gonna spend $2000 (remember shipping,) you may as well save up another $1000 to get Dowards, which if I remember correctly, he dyno'd at somewhere near 250rwhp--right?

I keep slipping in and out of reality, so I miss things. Either way, I'd still like to see an intercooler, injectors, computer mod, and a few other things that really make Doward's seem like a great deal.

If all your kit comes with is the piping and turbo... I'd say it's not worth the money. Give us some results and maybe you'll find yourself with a bunch of ravenous v6'ers with money burning holes in their pockets.

Doward

222.1rwhp, on a smaller turbo than the kit comes from.

BBSDesigns

Ok, here are dyno results;

• Completely stock V6 2.8L engine...............................97 rwhp
• Same engine with turbo kit @ 7psi of boost................131 rwhp
• Power gained.........................................................34 rwhp
• Percentage rear wheel horsepower increase...........35% increase

Tech data:

• 1989 Camaro with 2.8L V6 and 4 speed auto.
• Engine is completly stock with stock injectors, stock fuel pump and stock computer.
• Engine mileage: 125,000 with no rebuild.
• Modifications to the engine before turbo kit installation: none.
• Modifications to the engine after turbo kit installation: new spark plug wires, spark plugs re-gapped to .030, timming retarded to 15 BTDC and a 10:1 FMU.
• Gas: 91 Octane pump gas with no octane booster or additives.

Dyno Run Video Clip

http://www.bbsdesigns.net/BBSDesignsCamaroV6DynoRun


Responding to some of the comments posted above from some members;

The Camaro we found to develop the kit has seen better days. The car does not have the stock radiator overflow tank, we had to buy one for $9.00 on Pep Boys, however the kit will not interfere in any way with the stock one. The Camaro also needed the upper plastic part of the A/C on the firewall.
We designed the kit with just the lower fiberglass part which is the one that mostly interferes with downpipes and parts alike.
The car definately could get a new engine or refreshing the one that it has, we knew about it the first time we saw the oil pressure gauge, but we wanted to try the kit in the worst case scenario, a beat up daily driven car.
In fact, we are still using the car as the "go and get" vehicle just like it went to the dyno. The kit's price is $1760.00 with shipping already included. Again, the kit is capable of up to 450 hp with the turbo included but it will need engine modifications and a modified fuel delivery to reach that goal, or bolt-on the kit right out from the box and get a 35% rear wheel horsepower increase.

Doward

What was the peak tq?

eric17422001

That thing sounds sweet! Of course it's hard to find a fresh V6 thirdgen to use as a project base, the newest 2.8 cars are 16+ years old and have seen many owners and lots of neglect. Unlike some of the optioned out Irocs and TA's these cars were not bought by folks who babied them and were a first car for many a teenager and were abused accordingly.

Come on guys, it seems everyone on this board bitches and moans the lack of aftermarket for these engines, then when someone actually makes a product all I read is more bitch and moan that it's poor quality or too expensive. Face it, you are not going to get big gains in power from these mills without extensive work, forced induction or nitrous.

I commend BDS designs, Doward and Techsmurf for their efforts as well as the cool head not to tell some people where to go with their complaining. Raven as well has done his work and homework on these things.

OK. I am going to get about five dozen hateful responses to this, my flame suits on.

ScrapMaker

asbestos, or raybestos?

91greenbird

iTrader: (4)

Will this kit work for sd? Also how much power do you think it can make on my 3.1 with the mods it has? Question for doward, lets say i bought this kit and then added injectors, fuel pressure regulator, bov, intercooler, and computer chip, plenum/ tb, and turbo cam how much power do you think this will give you? Id love to have a fast v6. I hear so much crap about how my car is so good looking but is junk caz its a slow v6. Im really looking into this kit, hopefully one day in the future if i go turbo ill be in the 12's and shut them import and v8 drivers up.

Doward

I can't say... I took a stock 3.1 and put down 222rwhp. That's what, +91hp than this kit? I can't believe all of that was due to the 2.8 vs 3.1 - they're only 5hp difference, stock.

ScrapMaker

what I don't understand, is somehow a 2005 v6 can put out 265hp, N/A, and still get 30+mpg on the highway... how are our motors so inefficient, and what what can we do to close the gap with the new motors?

AM91Camaro_RS

the heads are a big difference then the technology, i think, is the second biggest thing... see if you can steal a computer and wiring harness (and all that goes with it) from a newer car and I bet you'll get close(r) to where they are.

ScrapMaker

If I dropped in a 2002 5.7 SFI from a trans am, would I still be able to get the 27ish mpg on the highway?

V6#22

Those newer motors cost 5 times as much also. You put that money into a 3rdgen 60*v6 with lightweight bottomends, roller valvetrains, *professional* bench flowed headwork and a less restrictive intake fuel path and it'll put out 250HP no problem N/A.

For those of you newbies that are unaware, I have stated many times that GM has documented successfully exceeding 1.5hp per cubic inch on a naturally asperated 60*V6 RWD block and iron heads. 1.5hp per cubic inch on a 2.8L 60*V6 equals 259hp. Yes it can be done even with a little 2.8.

ScrapMaker

Aren't there quite a few people here that have rebuilt their v6s? Why haven't they put in lighter parts, and better heads?

Isn't the fastest v6 (n/a,) about 15.5 1/4?

Naft

why? $$$

V6#22

Nope, not one single person here. Alan has the fastest here on recoird but his bottom end is 100% stock intenals. He's into the high 14's right now. No one has professionally bench flowed heads, all are homebrewed jobs.
For the record, I am running in high 15's with a fairly stock 2.8 longblock(not a stock car, I said a fairly stock 2.8 longblock with lots of goodies on it.) The only thing not stock on the current 40,000 mile 2.8l GM longblock is 1.52 rollertip rockers, the rest of the longblock is factory stock.

ScrapMaker

well stock is like 18 seconds, so you are MUCH faster than stock.

Is it cheaper to build up a 5.7 than a 3.1? say, for 250hp?

V6#22

A stock camaro of my year ('87) from the factory ran the 1/4 in 17.4 seconds. I am about 1 1/2 seconds faster than a stock perfect shape car. Your later year Pontiac is heavier and slower even with a 3.1, they ran about 17.8 (don't take offense toi this- I am merely stating a fact)

Just sale your car and buy a V8 car. It will be much cheaper than the numerous drivetrain and suspension alterations you'll need to find and swap for it to work.

ps-Are you learning anything from my rantings?

ScrapMaker

nope, I already knew that v8s are the way to go... buy hey, you gotta start somewhere.

I have decided to fix my car though, and save up for either a 90 GTA, or a 2001 WS6. I feel that there is about a year left in my current tranny.

V6#22

My car and the turboTA's are living proof that V6's are the way to go in a thirdgen. It just takes more money to own or build one than a V8 car. Everyones got a V8 and they do not handle nor brake due to nose weight. A V6 can be made just as quick yet turn circles on a V8 3rd gen, just cost more money.

The_Raven

It doesn't have to cost more, you just have to know where to find the parts and utilize them.

Doward, what tranny do you have?

I'm trying to figure out some reason why you layed down 222WHP and the BBS only layed down 139WHP, that's a huge difference.

Thar mi' be some slippage cap'ain.

Something doesn't add up here.

ScrapMaker

Camaro Coupe 3025 3105
Convertible 3142 3220
Z/28 Coupe 3194 3273
Convertible 3298 3377

I seriously doubt 168lbs will make the car handle like crap.. and the enormous hp would obviously out-weigh a few extra pounds.

And I wouldn't say that the "v6 is the way to go." It may be a way to go, but not the way.

Realistically, you probably can't get much more than 300hp out of the v6, however, the v8s can easily get that, and much more.

For some reason this topic never dies... obviously if someone were to put in an equal amount of money into both a v6, and a v8, you'd have more than twice the power in the v8, and it would handle the same as the v6...

maybe on stock suspension the v6 would handle better, but I bet you the GTA WS6 could easily out-slolum the v6... by a long-shot.

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

doward has an intercooler, and i believe a bigger turbo, as well as a 3.1 and a cam. thats part of it.

Doward

Nope, I've got an intercooler, a MUCH SMALLER turbo when I dyno'd - yes, now it is a beast turbo

3.1L stock when I dyno'd. Now 3.1L + cam.

T5 stick shift here.

V6#22

You need to read up on my Camaro's racing history. There hasn't been a v8 around SoCal than can touch me- the track times are documented. I'll EAT a WS6 even modified for lunch on any autox course, matter of fact, I ALREADY HAVE.

You have alot to learn beefore you go making any more *opinion* posts like this. Now before you go saying that one guy couldn't drive, it wasn't just one guy, it wasn't just one event and it wasn't against the same car. Many have tried and enlightened- actually shocked and embarassed.

Its not only what cha got son, but its how you set it.

In a 3rd gen, to get the proper bais for handling, A V6 is THE way to go. You need to learn more about cars and stop arguing with me on here, I am here to help. Ask yourself, Why did Dean build a V6 Camaro when he obviously has the money to buy build a V8 car? answer, there is a reason why I wanted the V6 in it because I know what I am doing and what I have to work with in using a 3rd gen chassis.

ScrapMaker

if you say that, by putting the same exact amount of money into a v6, versus a v8, will give you more HP and better handling, then I believe you. Common sense tells me something entirely different, but I obviously haven't upgraded my 189.

I do know, for a fact, that the stock 3.1 handled like a pile of runny cat feeces, so clearly any car you want to handle would need to be appropriately modified, be it v6, or even v8.

I can see how the 200 pounds can adversly affect the handling, and the fact that about 75 pounds of that motor is located closer to the nose than in the v6, I just think that with aftermarket suspension, that would not be very noticeable.

Do you run all over the WS6 guys that have modded out their cars like you have, or is it just the stock ones?

V6#22

Enough of the guys out there had SFC's, STB's Wonderbars, tublar panhard and LCA's, 1LE brakes with better pad compounds, cars where mostly all lowered with stiffer rates than any WS6 spring (by the way, stock WS6 suspension parts are crap to any aftermarket products exceptfor the swaybars and mildly decent spring rates-HOWEVER, WS6 springs on a WS6 GTA isn't worth beans. The GTA's are so heavy from the factory that GM required a stiffer spring rate on them to keep them stable. Take those WS6 springs and put them on a lighter Camaro and they are useful in a semi performance racing application).
One of the GTA's even had a supercharged v8 in it and I beat him by about 5-6 seconds. None of the cars where stock- they all had different levels of modifications done to them in some form.

The closest one to me was 3.9 seconds slowerand it was a 91 Camaro with 11" wide rims on the rear and BFG KD G-force tires that were about 2 weeks old (My tires were 2 1/2 years old and replaced the next day after the last event). THis car was also lowered with much suspesion work done AND he had as much camber and caster aligned into it so it was not streetable without massive tire wear- he was setup specifically for racing autox that day- I was in normal daily street driven trim and alignment. He was the closest to me. I ran 63.3, he ran 67.2- I would say thats eating them for lunch- there were 8 others behind him that day with slower times- half of them were GTA's- the local guys seem to love GTA's.

I run all over anything and everything in this car when it comes to cornering and braking. I even out corner & out brake new Corvettes- and that is documented. You have no concept of what a V6 3rdgen can actually do- only the people that have actually ridden in or have been beat by it do.

This sounds like alot of arrogance on my part- most interpet it that way- I am merely stating facts and backing it with proof. People tend to not like me around here because I happen to be the guy to beat. I had an on going $500 challange to come knock me off and I was banned a few years ago for that- to this day I have still not had any takers. I agreed to race everyoine at autox for fun in the last event. Last time one of the locals bet me I cleaned him for lunch on Virage cars at speedzone and I never saw the $50 he know he bet me over the internet before the event materialize-he said he never agreed to it in person and that we had no bet- happens to be the same guy I beat by 3.9 seconds in autox.

V6#22

Now with all that said, back to the topic at hand- Turbo chargers.

Sadly I live in the great but restricted state of California. Anything post '73 is subjected to smog inspections both visual and dyno. We can not install non E.O# aftermarket parts onto car subject to smog inspections. My Vette and Austin Mini I can get away with anything goes because they are '68 and '67 respectively.

If I could LEGALLY get away with a turbocharger system on this car it would be deadly. I am working on learning the legistics of the computer ECM's in my free time and have learned of a pssible loophole that I can install a Paxton Supercharger legally. I need to learn about what it takes to install such a system. It will be next on my list of car projects- but will have to wait at least one more year since I have a major home remodel going right now and I am off to purchase more peices to the puzzle today and get going on this week off on the remodel- I am 24,000 into it already in 3 months- its were my focus is right now. I still come into here when taking a break in life.

ScrapMaker

Sounds like your car is exceptional at the auto-cross, but what about the rest of the time? If you're running high 15's, then most likely a modded v8 with low 13s, and a decent suspension would take you out, unless you were on a track that was nothing but turns...

so I guess if by "the way to go," you meant the v6 will handle better than the v8, then yes, that is true. Overall, wouldn't you agree the v8 would be faster and cheaper, and capable of making up for it's lack of cornerning by it's massive horsepower?

Maybe I just can't visualize the tracks you run on. Are they ALL turns/slides/etc? Are there any straight-aways?

Now, a turbo v6 is the way to go, if you ask me. I love turbos, but all the damn TTAs are friggin' $25,000! I'd rather make one myself for under $5,000.

ScrapMaker

One more question. Does the stock GTA WS6 out-handle a stock 3.1? if not, then the WS6 truly is worthless.

my 3.1 didn't body roll much, but around turns it would definitely lose traction, just listening to the tires.

V6#22

Tracks? How about California Speedway.

Heres a shot of me coming around the turn1-turn 2 highbank at 120 mph and then braking from 120 to about 30 into a hard 90* left (turn 3) and then getting ready for the immediate hard 90* righthander (turn 4) 3&4 are a combined chicane.

This sequence veiwed from the *right* to the *left* shows me out braking and out cornering a new BMW M3 both of us coming down from 120mph. Now you can clearly see the distance I gain on him going into that ONE corner- there are 21 corners total. He has to make up that distance and then some to pass me on the next straight.

On this 2.8 mile road course at Calif speedway, the high HP cars do in fact eat me for lunch going down the straights, but I make up for alot of time braking and cornering far better than them. I will give you an example. The last CMC (Camaro- Mustang Challage) on this same 2.8 mile roadcourse at Calif Speedway rendered the the pack between 1:58 laptimes and 2:11 laptimes all with striped down fairly stock V8 cars and all on racing tire(major difference with racing tire compounds). I ran a 2:09 on that same track with street tires and my daily normal alignment before the headers and TB were installed. I could get about 1 second faster now and I bet another 3 seconds with racing rubber all with a pathetic 165 fwhp V6 automatic so to speak(ps my automatic is not pathetic nor is the rest of my drivetrain heading to the rear of the car - just the motor in its current form)

And to answer your question- any stock suspesion 3rd gen is pathetic. They all push hard going into a corner. You have to modify the cars to handle decent, even the V6's. The GTA's will slightly outperfom the stock V6 only because of the wider 16" tires they came with opposed to the 15" rims and narrower tires the V6's stock came with. Simply put better 16" factory rims and tires on a V6 and better swaybars and it will slightly beat a GTA, but not by much- that'll boil down to the driver.

The_Raven

There are many documented cases of 660s that make plenty more than 300HP, N/A and forced induction.

Mine made 218 WHP which is about 250 CHP, with not enough fuel and not enough turbo. Oh yeah torque was 270 ft/lbs which is approximatly 310 at the crank, not bad for just around $2000 CDN.
I also ran a 13.8, with the front end diving 3 or 4 times in 4th gear, due to lack of fuel, and causing detonation.

This was in a 3200 lbs GMC Jimmy. I equate alot that due to WHERE the weight is, not just what the overal weight is. My engine and turbo system are about 80 to 100 lbs LIGHTER than my stock non-turbo 2.8. Lighten up the nose, get the weight transfer right. I also noticed less desire for the truck to push through the corners, though, I'd still like to reuse that more.

Depending on the dollar amount, the same money into V8 vs V6 could yeild the same power. I know that I could build a 300+ HP 660 for peanuts, now that I've had more experiance with them. You could do the same with the V8.

All depends on where you find your parts and what you do with them.

Something else to consider the V6 will have less internal friction than teh V8, due to many factors.

ScrapMaker

peanuts, eh? wonder why no one's got one yet.

drdave88

iTrader: (3)

money and knowledge and experience are totally different things. you may have the cash to do it, but if you dont know what youre doing, youre not gonna take it on. thats where it all comes in to play and thats why most on here dont do a lot of the major upgrades such as the 3400 upper end or turbo or anything like that. i hope i didnt offend anyone or anything, cause im one of them that doesnt have the knowledge or experience either. its just the truth. if you cant fab up stuff yourself or dont have the cash, youre not gonna do it. some of us have the money to do it ourselves but not the knowledge or experience, some dont have the money or anything, like me, lol. im not trying to knock anyone on here, please dont take it that way. im just going by what i see on here and whos done what in the past.

The_Raven

QFT!!

Like I said in my post, if I had to do it again, meaning I have past experiance building these engines for some decent power.

I will be getting north of 300 CHP out of my 3.2L when it comes back out, I can garantee that, but I really need to include the original build in the total cost tally, and make a seperate tally for starting from scratch and what that would cost to replicate.

Yes I could do it for the same or less than the Franken60v.1, Franken60v.2 will be much more powerful and still not have a ton of coin into it.

Oh BTW, I already roast MANY V8 powered cars and even V8 powered S-series trucks/SUVs.

An aluminium (top end at least) GM 660 is a very potentant and venerable engine that has yet to see it's true potential tapped, save but a few examples.

I can post some pics and links for certain ones if you'd like.

V6#22

Well, I am refering to actually building a motor- as in a full blown lightweight racing bottomend with h-beam 6" rods, nitrated and shaved crank, custom lightweight pistons, 4bolt mains,. the works. You can do that on a budget, and nobody here has yet to actually build a full race aftermarket bottomend. It takes a hell of alot more than peanuts just for the parts alone. And everything will have to be custom machined to fit.

Now before someone goes and starts telling me I do not need all that, think again. You may not need it, but I will for what I have planed. I have always wanted to build a small displacement rpm motor from kicks. I have a 327 V8 already that spins 8500 rpms.

LinuxGuy

iTrader: (1)

OK, back on topic now:

BBS:
You said "timming retarded to 15 BTDC" - was that a typo or some kind of error? The 2.8L is at 10 degrees BTDC stock - you advanced it 5 degrees!

BBSDesigns

Nope, the timming was retarded another 5 degrees, 15 degrees retarded in total.

As a matter of fact we are selling the Camaro locally and the turbo kit has been put on ebay. The Camaro has a sleeping rust that it will explode soon since it was poorly painted and repaired, so we are getting rid of the car before the rust takes over. For the kit, well the kit is almost new, about a month of use and one dyno test. The link for the ebay auction are;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...DME:B:AAQ:US:1

or

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...3AAAQ%3AUS%3A1

The auction has a starting price of just $950.00, no reserve.
If someone is interested in a completly new kit just let us know.

The_Raven

I was talking about getting to 300CHP, can be done for peanuts, and yes that includes a rebuild.

Good luck with the 6" rods, I've done many calculations on it, and the ring lands just won't be tall enough. Besides a 2:1 rod ratio is a bit high.

V6#22

6" rods will give me a 1.81 rod ratio, not a 2.0. 2.0 is upper end yet would still be adequate for a topend motor, but I would agree it is getting high for anything streetable. Hence why I am staying around 1.8.


I have been given different info from Ross pistons that the combination I am looking into will work no problem for street reliabilty on a 3.31 crank, 6" rods even if I decked the block .010" to clean it up.

ps-for the record, I am talking about a 3.4block- I think your #'s are showing you are thinking of a 2.8 motor.

ScrapMaker

V6#22

you get high 15's in your 3.4, or in your stock v6?

The_Raven

Yes I was using the 2.99" stroke of the 2.8, seeing as it doesn't seem overly popular for people around here to stroke thier 2.8s or build a 3.4.

Yeah 1.8 isn't too bad at all.

What was the total distance from the top ring land to the bottom ring land, IIRC last time I did the calcs it was like 3/4" or so, which would induce piston rock. I also like a thick top ring land for turbo/nitrous use.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

He has a mild modded, low-milage crate 2.8 in his car.

I belive he has
1.52 rockers
modded intake
exhaust
underive crank
top end coil,wires, cap/rotor
3.23 gears (stock was 3.42)

Now I think he has all that, plus
headers
custom home upper 1/3 intake.

V6#22

yep, thank Jay. Scrapmaker, I am pulling more power mid and up top by far ocver a stock 2.8 V6 car. The only internal modification to the 2.8 motor is 1.52 rollertip rockers like Dale stated above.

However, I have EXTENSIVE work done to the rest of the car meaning drivetrain, etc that is probably one of the most moddified drivetrains on these boards including a 4lb carbon fiber driveshaft and drilled flange axles to name a few. The multiple modification I have help more flywheell HP get to the rear wheels with less powertrain loss.

Also, on that same note, the modifications I have allow the motor to rev higher rpms more freely past the 4000rpm wall where these motors in stock form start to fall on their face dyno wise. Those restrictions include valvetrain friction (ie; the roller rockers), ignition (ie: the extensive highend componants I run- coil, wires, alt, sheilding and overall heat control of the electronics), crank underdrive pully (helps motor rev faster), extensively modified cooling system (keeps motor cooler and intake charge denser- stock systems run way hot and flucuate), 62mm billet aluminum TB (stock is 52mm), AFPR (stock injectors run out of steam going above 4000rpms with standard 43psi fuel pressure, I run 58psi), stainless steel headers and y-pipe also heat coated (ceramic coated) to heat for scavaging flow and reduce engine bay temps, inside of plenum and runners are polished as much as I could get them down to the injectors, hgih flowing catalytic convertor(actually no cat on there right now) and a complete 2 1/2" mandrel bent catback exhaust routing to the flowmaster80 (which is coming off real soon when I get the time), timing at 13* (my experience with 14* like most here do is my motor starts to fall on its face above 5K, 13* is better for me)....I don't know what else I am forgetting. I have done so much to this car I can't remember everything- its not my only car thats modified, I have 4 modified vehicles and trying to keep track of what I did to which. Oh yes, the custom 9" convertor helps things spin quicker also andloss less drivetrain power, the inerts of the trans is fully custom also and the build was emphasized on minimal drivetrain loss through an auto trans when parts where installed.

My car is built but light weight still due to the exotic lightweight parts that are on it- Camaro V6's are light to begin with. The current crate motor that is in it went in about 5 years ago as a new GM 2.8l replacement and it currently only has 40,000 miles on it. It is still very fresh.

Here's about 8 pages on the car with old and new modifications- I never took the time to edit out the old modifications on a few of the first pages, so there are some old outdated pics on there like the old front brake setup (which I am going to try and get onto my Mini under some 13" rims and use the Wilwood aluminum GM replacement calipers) . http://www.cardomain.com/ride/518752/1

Dale

iTrader: (12)

forgot about the afpr, and drivetrain, ops.

I got the main engine part down though

ScrapMaker

sounds like a lot of work! can your motor take a turbo as-is, or do you think you would rebuilt the top-end?