Ben92

Ok, so i go to the University of Northwestern Ohio, it's one of the leading automotive college's. A kid there has honda civic with almost 1k horsepower, out of what a 1.8? So my question is how come its so hard to get over 250 horses with a built 3.4 in a camaro?

KBcobra

1.8L thats no stock block, how big are turbo(s)? Probably suck the clothes right off of you 10 ft away. , 2JZ (Supra) can handle 1000hp on it's bottom end and its only 3000cc. A little smaller than our engines. Back to thirdgens. 3.4L with a turbo should do it i think. The key ingredient in any build weither its a 1.0 I4 or 8.4L V10 is money. Anything is possible with money.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Simple answer: Flow.

Longer answer: The heads.

dayton's Z

can u simplify that for me, just doesnt make sense

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

The heads in that Honda probably flow very well, not to mention he has to be pushing alot of boost to make those numbers. Our heads flow like crap, the aluminum heads flow alot better than ours. Also since it is an I4 it is easier to get the air in/out.

Iluvspd

LMAO do not listen to him with stock internals he will never make over 260-300hp. His max boost is around 12psi on a t3/t4 turbo. It dosent seem like a lot but that is 13 in the 1/4mile easy. If he did build the block its no longer a 1.8L, the 1.8 usualy slang that refers to the block size. Ex: His enigne is a B18a, B18b, B18c or B18c5... instead of saying that he would just say 1.8L. Also Stoopid Tuned maxed out around 600-700 hp. There is one stronger B18 but it doubt its your friend...What school you said you went to again?

Also I WAS a honda guy untill I realized I can go faster with a Chevy

Ben92

University of Northwestern Ohio, and he had the car on one of 2 chassis dyno and it said 1k.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

So anytime an engine is built or rebuilt it is no longer what it was in displacment? Sounds like you need to learn a bit more about engine building and rebuilding.

The "B" refers to the series, the "18" is in refrence to how many CCs that engine has for the bore and stroke combination, to differentiate it from other B series engines. I know many built and rebuilt Hondas that are still the same dicplacement they were from the factory.

jccaclimber

How much of that HP is spray? What RPM?

vintageisbetter

big *** turbos and huge nitrous spray along with everything upgraded ei ign, heads, exuast...ect

Iluvspd

B is the series but 18 stands for 1.8L
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Well I would like to see the results, if that is not a problem. If its true I would of heard of your friend so would the rest of the honda community.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That's what I said, 18 = 1800 cc. :roll:


Not everyone lives thier life on the interweeb.

Iluvspd

[quote=Six_Shooter;3576470]That's what I said, 18 = 1800 cc. :roll:


Yes displacement can be changed all b series have intercangeable parts ex: B16 B17 B18 B20 any one of these engines can be converted to another by stroke bore and head click for a reference http://hondaswap.com/engine-building...ing-b18-84394/ LOL

I believe the guys question was how come his V6 cannot make such power so lets get back on topic " Not a Honda Site"

DemonKnightDK

the V6 can do it, just needs some more time for people to create the parts for it. honda some how got insane aftermarket support. the V6 in the F bodys has basicly been built by the comunity with little aftermarket support. Some of our members have created turbo kits, custom intake setups, changed their igniton setups and even swaped entire top ends from newer FWD cars to get better flow and power.

My question is, what RPM was that HP made at?

Ben92

Im not sure what the Rpm it was, all i know is he put it on the dyno and thats what the dyno showed on the screen. This could all be made up but ive heard alot of people talk about it, so i dont know.

Iluvspd

His rpm would be in the neighborhood of 12.5-14.5k and his 1/4 mile is mid 10's for a 1k hp civic. To match or exceed that would would need an engine that has strong aftermarket support (350) nothing more or less because of the 3rd gen weight unless you already have her stripped down. I would'nt count too much on the V6 but with enough fabrication skills anything is possible. Dont give up I would check into GM 3.8L and see its limits.

Iluvspd

Any person who loves and studies cars know there is no end to its research, I just plan on being the best at what I do.

Kevman

Haha less than 10's, you're talkin a 2200lb car, with over 1000 horsepower. high 8's if there's a tail wind.
The reason he can also make over 1000 horsepower is one simple thing, technology. Our cars were built in the 80's, his is most likely more recent, most likely built from an aluminum block, with aluminum heads. The 3.4, straight out of the 93-95 F-body is all Iron.

joshh44

i would ask him for a dyno sheet if he has one to see if he really has 1000hp.
im sure he has aton of money to make him little engine have that much hp as well. and why would even want a 1000hp civic? i even got a civic and there pure crap lol tho i take mine off road and do things you shouldnt be doing a car but its a civic. ill see how long this car will last me. tho its a '83 civic and i paid $200 for it! see if they are unbreakable. (my friends call em that) anyways. im sure that civic sounds like crap with there huge mufflers on the back.

Iluvspd

Yeah technology vtec, I was wondering??? there is a MSD kit to advance timing inside the car by the turn of a **** is there a way to wire that to advance itself at certain rpm's??? If so a **** load of hondas will be pissin themselves soon, with my home made 305 vtec LMAO (but seriously this is worth looking into)
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Theres a rumor a person ran an 80's civic with an auto transmission with pure water for 15min, I personaly dont believe it because of such high heat, but it would be cool to try before you get rid of your civic

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Hotrocker.com

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

I want. Like, NOW.

jccaclimber

That seems a bit expensive for what it is but that looks really cool.

Mike-in-Orange

You don't think it was easy for him to get 1k HP out of that Honda, do you? He sure didn't get there with simple bolt-ons.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

"VTEC" is not simple ignition timing advance. It actually changes the timing of the cam, on the exhaust side IIRC.

Also the MSD unit(s) you speak of do not advance the timing, it is an adjustable retard, usually varied by RPM or boost pressure.

2_point8_boy

Correct. VTEC uses oil pressure to advance or retard the exhaust cam on the earlier series VTEC motors and both cams on the newer ones.

The way that everyone tends to go is with a B18 block out of something like an integra or Civic and put the Head off a CR-V on it to make it a 2.0L

the 1.8L motors are something like 1849cc and the 2.0L out of the Cr-V is something like 1951cc because of the combustion chamber.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

WTF?

You can't change the displacment of the engine by swapping heads.

Displacement is bore X stroke X # of cylinders.

Combustion chamber size has no effect on these measurements.

DemonKnightDK

its honda **R**I**C**E math...maybe?

Iluvspd

Lets leave the honda alone and focus on the kids camaro. We need to find out what he needs to do to improve his 3.4 or which engine to swap. So he can beat that POS 4cyl

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I'm with sixshooter, sounded like you were saying you get larger displacement by installing a new head.

Iluvspd

No its just that with an increased stroke you would need a head to clear the valves or the kid would have to machine his head, and I doubt he has the tools at home.

But I'm leaving this thread if I wanted to talk about hondas I would stayed at hondaswap.com, I just feel this kids camaro is what we should be discussing

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

WRONG! Increasing stroke has nothing to do with valve clearance or need for an increased combustion chamber. The increase in stroke is ALWAYS in the bottom of the cylinder. The top of the piston ALWAYS, stops at the same point at the top of the cylinder, or within a few thousanths anyway since this is one variable that can't change.
Case in point, the GM 60degreeV6, the stroke was increased from 2.99" to 3.31", to take the 2.8L to a 3.1L, and the heads are IDENTICAL.

Cam timing, is what determines valves clearance, now there is a variable that can be changed by changing stroke, piston dwell time, but that is not a direct effect, since dwell time can also be changed by changing rod length.

That's your call, and in a round about way we are discussing the Camaro, or any car for that matter, as many things are very similar between all engines.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Well, that's not entirely correct. Piston crown shape, head design, valve size and cam timing all have an effect on valve clearance (and head gasket thickness if you really want to get detailed) but given the same rod length and compression height the piston does travel further up the bore, ergo the 3.1's shorter compression height. The piston travels further upward and down in the bore.

As for making a 3.4 live at 1k hp who knows, it might be possble on a factory crank. The 3500 crank is forged and could probably put up with 1k with a little massaging and some forged sbc rods and forged pistons you've got the base for serious power. 4 bolt mains wouldn't be a bad idea either. Then all you need are some 3x00 heads and a lot of boost. Then you can blow the doors off some riceboys.

Ben92

I plan on getting a 3.4 block. getting some strong pistons and connecting rods. Then either get a pair of heads off a new fwd 3.4 or port and polish the ones that come stock and the intake. Then eventually run a trubo with like 10 - 15 pounds of boost. I already have the exhaust and headers for my 3.1. I know i have to weld new ends on to the headers to get them to work with the 3.4 and i have the dual snorkel intake off a tpi motor.

Ben92

* turbo*

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I guess I should have said all else being equal.
The compression hight difference is a given, as the piston can't really be allowed to travel farther up the bore, at least not much when stroking an engine and has to be dealt with before hand.
The piston travels no farther up the bore (comparing 2.8 to 3.1), only farther down. Both engine share the same deck hight.

I'm sure there's someone here that will get 4 digit HP from thier 660.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The race to 1k is on! Too bad I'm not in the running, never enough money!!!

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Yeah I don't really have enough money to do it, but I'm still gonna try, I have some ideas to try.

I'm in no race either, this engine that I am building (not for the Typhony) won't be fired for a few years anyway, will take that long to research all options and get the parts made. I hope to have it in a car by 2011 or so. I still have to find the right car, and no it STILL won't be an F-body. It won't even be a domestic.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

1k is aiming high. The fastest v6 fbody right now is making just over 800hp in a fully purpose built race car and has a 3800II TT and runs high 8's.

The record Honda's still in FWD configuration just broke into the 8's and the RWD Honda conversion record just made 8's. Both cars have about 1k HP and absolutely CANNOT drive on the street, so I call BS on a local driving one around. Both are drag-slicked, wheelie bar'd, alcohol running cars with chutes and skinnies.

Heck, even the 9.5 second "TCVR6" Jetta locally isn't street legal.
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EDIT: The goal for the Firebird is 250hp N/A minimum and 500hp with boost on a 660 (and stcok 3.4 crank).

And the rods are already forged in a 660.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

John, for me it's not a matter of desire, it's a matter of NEED. I am building a car, or will be once I find a good chassis to cut up, for a race where just to be competitive, you need to run mid to low 9s, to win, you have to run mid 8s. The car has to weigh a minimum of 3300 lbs, and has to retain many of the stock features, like firewall forward, upholstered interior, oh and it has to run on 93 octane. To run mid 9s, I need about 900 HP at the wheels, that means about 1100 at the crank. I do get to use any form of power adder, and any combination I want. I am allowed to inject the provided 93 octane fuel, nitrous and water, but no alcohol. I'm not saying that I can do this for sure, but I'm not allowing myself to be discouraged by other people's failures or my own doubts, I keep reminding myself, that more power has been made with less displacement, and so I'm going to try damn hard to get there.

BTW the chassis I am going to use is 2450 lbs to 2780 lbs depending on the year. That means I get to add the weight where I want it and not try to remove it from where I don't want it.

The truck, which will be the tow vehicle for this car I'm only shooting for about 500 HP.

xiholdtruex

that is going to be a nice build to be pretty much a daily driver running 8's will be sick as hell

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Technically it won't be a DD, but will get driven quite a bit.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I've seen guys use sub-9 sec cars as daily drivers. Of course those were big block v8's on spray... not a huge chance of blowing parts there. Still sounds like fun to me!

Iluvspd

Read a little more> http://www.centuryperformance.com/piston2valve.asp

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Seeing that the FWD heads we are putting on our cars makes them an interference motor, we are well aware of piston to valve clearance.

You have to remember when stroking a motor, either the rod length or the wrist pin height has to change as well. When we are talking about using the same block to make two different volumes, both being from the same mfgr - one would have to assume that the clearances have already been worked out.

A good example of this is when a 383 stroker is made from a 350. When this was first being done, the best and cheapest option (I'm talking before there were "stroker kits") Ford rods were used to maintain the deck height.

The piston ALWAYS has to be at or near the deck height regardless of the stroke. This means that unless you allow the piston to protrude from the top of the block, then proper valvetrain geometry remains.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Did you read that?

No where in there did I see mention of a change in stroke effecting valve to piston clearance.

As I already stated, any change in piston to valve clearance is not a constant when it comes to stroking an engine. A change in piston dwell time at TDC, can be effected by changing the rod length as well, which using the same stroke would require a new piston with a different compression hight, so that the piston still stops at the same point at the top of the cylinder. The TDC point in relation to the deck surface is something that can't change by a whole lot, [i]maybe by about .010" in an engine using the same the head gaskets and heads. If you change the thickness of the headgasket, you could change the TDC point of the piston if you wanted, but that's yet another variable thrown into the mix.
In short stroke alone does not effect piston to valve clearance, there are other variables that have a much more intwined relationship to this.

Ben92

I found a pair of clyinder heads off of a 1996 buick regal with a 3.1. Its front wheel drive so i was just wondering if those are the heads that will flow much better than the stock 3.4 camaro heads.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yes, much better, but the best is '00 and up. Remember that you can't use them without changing the pistons on a 3.4, and if you are using a 3.1/2.8 block you will need to figure out a way to get crank signal for the DIS.

EDIT: I have a bunch of 3400/3100 big port and 3500 top ends if anybody is looking.

KBcobra

imo, in order to get braggin rights your car has to be street legal :P

Ben92

Im Gonna use a 3.4 block out of a camaro or firebird. I was planning on getting those heads and porting and polishing them. The junk yard only wants $75 for each and there supposenly they only have 65k miles on them. Would that flow as good as the 2000 and up models? How much would you want for those big port clyinder heads? Im also looking for a really cheap pair of junky clyinder heads to practice port and polishing on.