FireInMe17

A rebuild IS a winter project for me because I have NO prior knowledge of doing anything of the sort. I'm more tuned to building a computer than a car.

FireInMe17

Six_Shooter, I'm going to ask you once, and I'm going to ask nicely, please leave my thread Thanks, you have been no help to me.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

/me dances around...

I have, in time you will see.

Besides most of my posts have been directed to other people that have also posted in this thread asking questions, namely about ECMs and tuning them. Some people might get some useful information out of what I have posted, other's may not.

FireInMe17

I have a good enough understanding of the electronics of and engine and computers and the likewise to figure it out myself if I ever want to do it, which I never mentioned that I did?......But your right, hopefully someone else can get answers from something posted on here, I on the other hand cannot seem to. And tuning is well, just off topic from what I want to do.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

*sigh*

Tuning is NOT offtopic of what you want to do.

Please try to understand the relationship between the engine and the ECM, and WHY it is so important that the ECM is properly tuned for the engine it is running, or attempting to run, if the mechanical combination is not close enough to how that ECM is tuned to run properly.

Tuning is especially important in an SD system that you would have being a 3.1. Once you install a larger cam, that effects vacuum signal, especially at idle, the ECM will try to run the engine but can only react to what it sees. In cars with large cams, and improper idle tunes this most commonly causes surging.

So, even though tuning via the ECM is not something you desire to do, it is something that you need to do, in order to get the most out of your engine.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Holy crap! 55 some odd posts already. Ok, so to recap replacement hypereutectic pistons/rings if yours are worn out, new bearings, the rest of your rotating assembly should be fine, delta 260 cam is a good choice generally, port, clean, polish your heads if it makes you happy, polish the combustion chambers & piston tops as well fyi, and I'd dump the stock upper manifold if you're willing. Make a 'pizza box' manifold with a larger throttle or look at the stickies for manifold options. Just get rid of the 180* bend and get a larger plenum to boot. 19lb/hr injectors should be plenty. You can get about 10.4 c/r out of it by milling 2.8 piston crowns down by .133" and using the 3.1 crank.

FireInMe17

THANK YOU Finally a post that actually helped answer the questions that I asked. Thank you very much!

Thing is though, for what its worth apparently...I don't want to or had any plans to dump the plenums. I'm gonna make them work, the Pizza box is just ugly I'm going to get rid of the bend and make it bigger by porting it a little bit, and any little bit should be a noticeable improvement that will make me happy with it.

I'll have to decide when I get the heads off if I want to order new pistons or not, but I was just thinking worst case scenario on that one. There have been some noises coming from the engine that isn't a knock or a slap but I have no idea. I assume its the lifters because its when the engine is hot and cold, best heard when coming to a stop and idling, loud enough to be noticed then, but quiet enough to be inaudible at any engine speed over 1000RPM. That was part of my worst case scenario thinking on new pistons, but chances are I'll just replace them anyways while I'm there doing it for good measure.

that cam sounds perfect, I only want something that is slightly more aggressive than the stock one, just to add a bit more compression, and give it a different sound, trust me, I will notice any small difference.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

You don't want to play with that bend too much actually. Open it up too much and you may hurt flow. You need consistent diameter from the plenum to the head for velocity to be at it's peak. A different cam won't change your compression ratio, but it will effect the dynamic compression (how that pressure is used) and push where in the powerband peak pressures are developed. Higher in the powerband means more horsepower, loewr more torq. A cam with a broad powercurve that sacrifices some peak power to make more everywhere else is going to be more fun to drive than a peaky one.

FireInMe17

I know that theres only so much that I can do to the bend in the plenum before I start to make my work detrimental to it, but I know that I can work on it a bit to make it flow slightly higher cfm to each other the cylinders, which is a gain as small as it might be.


Thats more of what I want, I'd rather have more power and torque available across the entire usable powerband than just having an engine that only makes peak power, your right that is no fun. Rarely do I take my car past 4500RPM, its rare for me to even take it much past 3250RPM but part of my reasoning for porting/polishing is to get more air to the engine to make something at all that might actually give the car any pulling power at all once it gets into the higher RPM's. But I would gladly sacrifice it if I could improve the lower/middle section of the powerband, the part that I use most often.

As for timing, I know if I want to have quicker acceleration and more power lower in the powerband, I should advance the timing. Retarding it will do the opposite, but then work against a cam with a broad powercurve, so I wouldn't really advance it that much at all, maybe 2*-4* just to get another small gain there.

I feel a lot better than what I did about an hour ago, is the Delta 260 Cam you referred to earlier going to give a broad powerband like described?

I probably won't go as high as 19 ib/hr injectors like you said, maybe more around 17 ib/hr, just slightly above the 15 that the 3.1 get from the factory would sound good to me.

I didn't think about it until now, but I might look into lighter pulleys also to free up some drag on the engine as its working to get it to work easier. And my plans for an aluminum driveshaft are scrapped after seeing that the one I have now is actually lighter

project89

iTrader: (1)

hey now the pizza box maybe ugly but its worth a 20-30 hp gain

but for n/a applications it deffinatly needs a divider of somesort installed into it to decrease plenum volume some the open plenum is to large for an n/a motor

the open plenum is actually large enough to feed a n/a 305/350 but works really good on a forced induction v6

and actually when it was bare aluminum it looked muuch better i painted it cause of a botched polishing job

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Fire, keep in mind, this is the internet. All you are getting is words. There is no tone, facial expression, hand gestures, or any other non-verbal cues to let you know how to take the info they are giving. For example, this is being typed with neutral tone. Are you reading it that way?
Second, you are going to want more once you have that 20 hp. You'll want another 50 or more. It's just what happens. I'm aiming for 300 at the wheels because I know I would like 200 rwhp. For a month. That's why we push the stuff with more potential (3.4, hybrid) because it will be easier to get you to the higher hp goals down the road.
Third, yes, tuning is scary. I see '420 ECMs and $69 codes and I'm all WTF mate? Thing is, even though it is big and ugly, I know I'm gonna have to do some tuning. Same with the hybrid. I hate the DIS swap and the ugly intake manifold, but I love the flow and lighter weight. Sure, I could maybe hit 300 hp without a hybrid and tuning, but it would be a hell of a lot harder and dangerous.
Finally, if you truly just want 20 hp.... Full exhaust, fuel pressure bump, good tune, true cold air intake, you're done.

TomP

Agreed 100%; everything I read so far in this thread seemed (to me) to convey a "helping" tone, even from SixShooter.

FireInMe17, I think what you should do *first* is call a machine shop, tell them what you want to do, and ask the machine shop what they recommend. (I'm not even sure what's available now, but why do you want hypereutectic instead of forged? Or, maybe stock/cast is fine for what you want to do.) And of course the machine shop will give you prices too, both for the work (usually by # of cylinders) and the parts you want. Don't forget about the misc charges on a rebuild; hot-tank, magnaflux (block, crank, rods), mill (resurface) the deck for flatness, press pistons to rods, etc. New pistons are a given because you'll be doing some kind of overbore to clean up the cylinder walls. And you'll probably want your heads trued up & magnafluxed before you spend the time/energy/$$ to do any port/polish job right? Etc, etc. Oh and you have all the tools youll need, right? Engine stand, engine hoist, ring compressors, air tools ([edit] to clarify- air tools for getting the engine in/out of the car, NOT for the engine disassembly/assembly itself!!) , etc?

In My Opinion, because the only change from 3.1 to 3.4 is the bore size, you'd be best to get the 3.4. If you want the 3.1 then that's fine too; it's not my car, it's yours, but you did ask for opinions. (Personally, on my car, I'll stick with my 2.8 b/c I like that it's not a stroker crank) You would also be able to work on the 3.4 block while you still drive your car. Check with the legality of the swap and your insurance company too.

Also IMO, you asked about timing 12-14 degrees BTC- I never saw any improvement from bumping the base timing; I doubt you will either. The best improvement will be from tuning the entire spark curve via the ECM/PROM. Luckily you can worry about that *after* you do the engine.

FireInMe17

Maybe so, but its just fabrication and/or more money to not stick with the stock plenum that would still give me what I want with a little improvement. The first time I took the plenums all apart and just soaked them in cleaner for about an hour and put them back in I was extremely pleased with the improvement. And what? That dust/carbon could have only been a few tiny layers that amount to almost nothing that made me feel so much better about the way the car ran.

You can't beat a clean running engine, thats for sure!

I started to get mad because I said exactly what I wanted to do and I started to get people putting my ideas down for what I wanted to do when I think I outlined them pretty good in the opening post, I don't want massive performance gains, I want a good rebuild, with a bit of a build up while I'm at that point, who wouldn't? I'm just not sure what to get because I don't know how it all works. Like I've said before, I've never rebuilt en engine from top to bottom before. I have rebuilt an engine to an extent with my friend and his 86 Mustang GT 5.0HO, but we didn't even touch the bottom end like I want to do with my build.

But no, I really would be happy with 20 more horsepower. Like I've been saying, any little gain is a big gain for me. I already enjoy how the 3.1L works and enjoy the smooth throttle and smooth acceleration, but I want just a better throttle response and a little bit more power, just a little bit, if I can get the power figures of a 3.4L out of my 3.1L then I will be extremely happy, and it will be a successful "build up" for me.

But I think with what I want to get that I will have just that, a good rebuilt engine with modest performance improvements for what I have, and I get to keep my original block and originality, and enjoy it more.

I have a machine shop in mind The car only has 90,000 miles on it so I don't think that unless something wrong is going on in the block and rotating assembly that I will have any problematic cylinder wall damage to worry about.

I want hypereutectic because theres less room for heating and cooling cycles, and after reading about knocking and slapping enough, I think that the improvement that they give over the stock ones I have now will help the engine last longer.

And yes I do have all the tools, I have a full garage available to me with every tool you could imagine there. Its my friend who has the Mustangs dads who has been slowly over the past few years building a 69 Shelby Mustang, so yeah theres tools there. They rebuild engines so I can get further help from them.

Depending on how things look when I get there though, will I decide how much work needs to be done to the block to get in back in tip top shape.

FireInMe17

Like I said I would do, I would post parts, so heres what I'm thinking about.

Pistons:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/STL-H562CP100MM/

Do I need to get new bearings if I take it all apart or only if I see that some of them are worn? I know what a spun one looks like from my buddy with the Mustang haha.

Timing Set:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-3137/

If I see anything that says roller, do I have to convert the whole system to roller, or can just some parts be roller parts?

Cam:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-16-233-4/

Is this a good cam with a broad powercurve? And same thing here, new bearings?

Harmonic Balancer:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATI-917130/

Should I be worried about replacing the one I have?

Head bolts:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-ES74018/

Absolutely have to replace the head bolts.

New exhaust:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WLK-17493/

Probably what most people get to replace their stock exhaust with.

Headers:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PSM-70-1206/

I thought that these get in the way of the oil filter though?

If you say ACDelco is the way to go, Spark plugs
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACF-1/

Just got new distributor/cap/rotor/wires so not worried about that unless I want to change something.

And then of course all the gaskets, fluids, hoses, wires, and the rest of the common sense stuff.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

so im pretty sure that i answered some of your questions and gave you advice that would make this build worth doing as did most of the people that replied. we werent putting your ideas down, but telling you the better way to do it so you dont waste time and money on something that you wont really be able to tell a difference with. almost everyone who has posted on this thread have built a strong v6 or have them now.

build it the way you want and dont worry about our advice, what do we know lol

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

Like I said I would do, I would post parts, so heres what I'm thinking about.

Pistons:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/STL-H562CP100MM/

Do I need to get new bearings if I take it all apart or only if I see that some of them are worn? I know what a spun one looks like from my buddy with the Mustang haha.

yes you need new bearings, replace everything in the motor, have it cleaned at the machine shop and pay them to balance it

Timing Set:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-3137/

If I see anything that says roller, do I have to convert the whole system to roller, or can just some parts be roller parts?

you want the double roller set, dont remember the part number for the 3.1

Cam:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-16-233-4/

Is this a good cam with a broad powercurve? And same thing here, new bearings?

new bearings again...its ok, you wont notice much diffrenece with a cam on these motors in stock form and with out watch out im gonna say it...tuning

Harmonic Balancer:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATI-917130/

Should I be worried about replacing the one I have?

no yours will be fine

Head bolts:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEL-ES74018/

Absolutely have to replace the head bolts.

dont need anything special there, stock 3.1 head bolts are fine

New exhaust:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/WLK-17493/

Probably what most people get to replace their stock exhaust with.

i have no advice there as they all sound like poo really, get what makes you happy

Headers:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PSM-70-1206/

I thought that these get in the way of the oil filter though?

they do not, and if you get headers you might have to get the exhaust the sell(if its available) since the headers may not fit with different systems


If you say ACDelco is the way to go, Spark plugs
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACF-1/

those are fine

Just got new distributor/cap/rotor/wires so not worried about that unless I want to change something.

stock or msd....i have all msd on mine but to each thier own

And then of course all the gaskets, fluids, hoses, wires, and the rest of the common sense stuff.


if your going with a 3.1 get a set of bosch IIIs with the stock flow rate, no larger...unless you want to....tune....

TomP

OK, so you really need to call that machine shop and get their opinions- they do engines for a living, we don't- they can help you the most. (Or, at least, most of us don't build engines for a living, apologies to those here that do.) I still don't think you should bother with hypereutectic, but you should see what the machine shop says too- if they say no, then don't do it.

And it will be up to the machine shop to determine how much work needs to be done to the block- and yes they'll check it for cracks before they do any work. You don't think there's anything wrong, but you - and they- don't know until they get out their expen$ive measuring tools. So call them!!

Plus honestly it gets me concerned when you talk about using hypereutectic pistons, but re-using bearings, and comparing spark plugs? You're not looking for a backyard fix-n-flip-4-quick-sale rebuild right? You've gotta do this right, spend your $$ on a full engine rebuild kit (you know, like, cam bearings- and yes have the machine shop install those) - a full kit will give you the longest life from your engine. (BTW a stock balancer is more than adequate)

Oh and a tip; buy the pistons/bearings (aka "full kit") from the machine shop. It'll keep them happy when they work on your engine. Plus they'll make sure they order the exact sizes and parts that they (you) need. Sure, suggest the part #s from Summit (I'm Summit's #1 fan), but buy the parts from the guys doing the work- they might even use Summit as a supplier.

Yes that Cloyes chain is a dual roller; I put it on my 2.8 +10 years ago. Your stock tensioner won't clear the sprockets though; even the instructions say "dont use it". I've had no problems; me and my cast pistons & stock balancer are at almost 300,000 original engine miles. Transmission and axle, well, not so much!

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

i mean if my 1000 posts arent good enough for you to listen to...hes got like 13,000

glad your back tom p

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

"Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking." JK.

Do it right or do it twice.

GTA50

Everyone has been "bang-on" so far in this thread. I agree with Pillsbury 100% about the 3.4 -problem is finding them. On my build, the 3.4 would have cost me $900. The 3.1 rotating assembly was $350 and fit my budget. (Canada does not have the virtue of the high production numbers to make the engine choices cheaper).

Also, Six-Shooter and bl85c are also right. To get the best out of your build, you need to have it tuned. The challenge may be to tune for best performance and to also pass emissions. I'm still sorting out the tuning thing myself. Makes for even more fun with this hobby.

For what it's worth and because I thought along the same lines as you, here is the thread that documents my build.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/4...its-alive.html

Not the best or ultimate by a long shot... but for my daily driver and with now 60,000 km under its belt and still going strong, I'm very pleased.

FireInMe17

Picked up a T-5 tonight.....

Freshly rebuilt, less than 1,000 miles on it, car it was installed in got wrapped around a telephone pole, picked it up for cheap.

Only problem, I'm seeing that the V6 and V8 versions are different. This was off of a 305...

firebird904

I think you would just need a v6 bellhousing but the input shaft is bigger than the v6 t5 but there's probably a way to get around that. Of course you would need all the other stuff to convert over to t5 if that's the route your going to take. https://www.thirdgen.org/manualswap You could always sell the tranny being it's probably worth more and you would have more money for your build up.

FireInMe17

Thats what I'm thinking, now that I'm seeing that its a PITA to swap a V8 T5 to be mated to a V6, it might just be for sale to fund my project Any bids?

But if I can find a way to make it work, then I might just go along with it.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i belive u can use a clutch disk out of an astro van

FireInMe17

God let GM make these monsters?! I have never heard of a standard Astro before haha

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You've probably also never heard of a 4 cyl Astro, maybe not even the AWD Astro either, though it is fairly common.

FireInMe17

Yeah I have I used to drive an AWD Astro, just never heard of a standard one.

TomP

Yeah just took a short break LOL, glad to still see some familiar names around here!

Or, just +10 years of being a member and helping people on here (and being helped); however you interpret my membership is up to you

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

That was a joke. Notice the 'JK' at the end?

89-bird

The clutch disk is for swapping a v8 into a v6 straight shift car or vice versa or putting in a 4.3 into a v6 straight shift car as the Astro clutch is 14 spline just like our v6 cars . I would recommend getting a v6 t5 or swapping the input shaft for one for a v6 t5 . I was told by a tranny shop localy that the input shaft is the biggest or only difference between the t5 for the v8 and the t5 for the v6 .

TomP

Yes, of course I did- didn't you notice my smiley face at the end?

Wow, this is exactly what jensen73110 was talking about, and I have to requote him:

So the smiley face in my message was to indicate that I thought your joke was funny. OK, well, I hope that helps clear things up!

FireInMe17

I talked to a mechanic from a Chevy dealer and he said the only reason that I would have to replace the camshaft bearings is if one of them gets messed up during removal of the stock cam, or installation of a new one, same with the main bearings for the crankshaft. He also said that I do not have to tune the computer if I get a new cam, that if the new cam is installed correctly then the computer will run the engine the way its supposed to, and all will be fine, as long as the cam is fine.

He also said that with only 90k miles on the engine that it should have no real damage to any of the cylinder walls or heads, especially if I drive the car everyday which I do, so I'm not worried about it.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

but if your tearing the whole motor down why wouldnt you go ahead and replace everything while your in there? its just smart, everything has 90k miles on it, it wouldnt hurt and its cheap insurance.

to get full potential out of a cam and other mods you have to tune...i dont know how many more times we can all say that. yes the car will run with a diffrent cam so long as its not to aggressive, but it wont run 100% as it should(even if you cant notice it) without a tune

no matter what the block looks like, take it to a shop have it cleaned up. there is no telling whats hiding in the spots on that motor that you cant see. if your going to tear it all down and do it right replace and clean everything

89-bird

100% .

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

x3

I may be an idiot, but it just makes sense to only pay for it once. Do it right the first time.

Fallen2603

100% x 4 = 400%

"Do it right the first time..."

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

x5 = 520% (I'm using new math lol)

I bet this "GM mechanic" assumed you meant another stock cam. Anytime the cam profile is changed it changes the fuel and spark requiremenst of the engine at different points along the RPM band.

I really don't understand what is so hard to understand about this. I find this especially hard to understand when you have multiple people, who have done this very thing, tell you that it is needed.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Oh s*** now it's on! You can't talk to me like that I know everything! I'm the mac daddy of dis interweb thing!

Seriously though I've had the same conversation too. If we can get anything out of this thread (sorry FireInMe17 ) it's that we can read into what other people write way to easily.

Oh and x6.

FireInMe17

Ok while it is not needed, it IS an added security, and I will probably do it anyway, its just that I asked the question because I didn't know. You guys told me to make phone calls so I did haha. I called a dealer and talked to them.

And no I told him I wanted to get a different cam for it, as is not a new stock one...

I really don't understand why you keep saying that I need to tune my computer when every single last one of my friends that have cams in their cars did no tuning whatsoever and their cars run fine.

My friend has a 1986 Mustang GT 5.0 H.O with a cam in it, he just swapped them out when we rebuilt the engine (I had to work that day). It runs fine, and its fast as hell. Big improvement there versus the old 5.0 w/out the cam.

I'm starting to think now that I'm just going to go to a junkyard and get another 3.1L out of a Pontiac 6000, its a FWD car, but its not a 3100, so its not different like the 3.4 vs 3400 that you guys didn't let me live down, right? That way I will have two of everything to work with, and IF something needs replacing, I will have have the parts to make it work.

But yeah while I'm there I'm going to replace everything that I can, I just don't like the idea of getting the whole thing machined, and it taking all that time and money. I'm 18 and work a part time job, I don't have gobs of money to throw at this, but I do want to put down a grand at the least to do this.

Project 3.4 Camaro

any fwd block isn't going to bolt up...and its not that tuning is a necessity, short of boost, nitrous, velocity stacks, or high CR you can generally get away without it, HOWEVER if you want to get the most out of your engine, and indeed any modifications, you SHOULD tune it.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The genII 3.1 is more like the 3400 than the RWD 2.8/3.1.

Just because people swap cams, and they get away with not tuning, does NOT make it right. I bet your friend's Mustang surges at idle, right? I have not known a Mustang that had a cam swap, not surge, and I've been around and worked on quite a few.

I also find that most repair mechanics don't have a clue about aftermarket or performance upgrades.

FireInMe17

Nope.

FireInMe17

Why not? Its not like the Gen II 3.1L was called a 3100 or anything like the difference between the 3.4 and 3400. And don't call me stupid, I'm asking an honest question here, why not? As far as I've ever known the 3.1L had no differentiation between models. It doesn't make sense if there is...

Project 3.4 Camaro

A fwd block has different motor mount locations than a RWD one

FireInMe17

That just makes no sense, its stupid.

FireInMe17

Well I know I won't be able to find a RWD 3.1L anytime soon in the junkyard, there are really NO engines around here, where I live, almost no Camaros/Firebirds go to the junkyard, all of them get restored, which is good for the cars, but horrible if you need parts like me.

Where in PA are you 3rd gen RS?

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

it does make sense if you think about it... the fwd motor is in the car sideways, depending on the car and how diffrent the engine bays are its hard to make one 'universal' way to mount a motor in a all cars, its very car specific

FireInMe17

I think it would be easier to do it that way, what if they would have made a surplus of 3.1L RWD blocks and they don't have enough to put engines in all of the FWD cars that GM also made? They could have used stock for any applications and cut costs.

Project 3.4 Camaro

GM does some wierd things at times, and I live near pittsburgh, and you should def be able to find a rwd 3.1 from an F-body in PA....try craigslist, both the parts section and car section, alot of people list cars that they're parting out in the section for selling cars. Otherwise just start calling junkyards, the intake manifolds are different too btw, they also suck from what I've heard.

FireInMe17

Yeah I know the manifolds are different, I wouldn't use a FWD one unless I was mounting an air filter on my firewall, haha, not really but you know what I mean.

I've been on craigslist looking high and low for old Camaros or Firebirds that are getting parted that I could use, but the cheapest one I found for sale was $1500 and well thats more than what I paid for my car in the first place.

The two closest junkyards I am familiar with only had 305 F-bodies, and the other one only has a single Firebird left, and its an 82, so nothing I could touch.

Checked auto locater, vehix.com, cars.com, local listings, everything. No one around here gets rid of their F-bodies or lists them I'm telling you, haha.