Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

100 posts! lol...with junkyards around here you have to call like every week to catch a fuel injected motor, call a lot lol

Project 3.4 Camaro

Hmm, I could probably find 5 in the town I used to live in, just sitting there,lol, hell I know exactly where one is right now, almost positive its out of commission. See if hell sell you just the engine, a lot of people will part cars out like that.

Fallen2603

Is this guy for real?! If the motor was FWD, the mounting points are at either end, usually, not on the sides like RWD blocks. You might not think it makes sense from a manufacturing point of view, but try and rig up a way to mount a motor, transversely, in a FWD car using the RWD-style mounting points. Yeah, it's like that...

Check out car-part.com. There are at least a dozen 3.4L V6's within 75 miles of my location. About the same in 3.1L V6's as well.

FireInMe17

Its worth a try, but I don't know if he will or not, the cars in better shape than mine is and has hood blisters on it, pretty sweet, I think its got heritage racing stripes too, but I'm not going to just buy the whole car for its engine/transmission.


Thanks for the site, I found a 3.4L within 12 miles of me, but the closest 3.1L is 47 miles away and is $650....

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

:facepalm:

Why do you have to debate everything with those of use live and breath these engines.

For the record, I have torn down at least 2 dozen 660s (Probably more, but I'm being conservative), of all years and original mounting configurations (RWD and FWD). Just FYI, the Fiero, which is a RWD uses FWD mounting points, being transverse mounted, which is actually how we should refer to the blocks, being transverse or longitudinally mounted.

As I said before the GenII engines are MUCH closer to the genIII engines than the GenI longitudinally mounted engines.With the change from the designation of "3.1" FWD to "3100" FWD, the generation changed from genII to genIII.

FireInMe17

I have to call to find out, and I can't call until tomorrow anyways.

FireInMe17

How about this. I'll take it down to the block without removing any of the rotating assembly. Ill take off the heads, the oil pan, the whole thing except the rotating assembly, clean it up, inspect it as I need to, ask others opinions who are experienced in the matter, and then decide if I even need to mess with it. Then, I'll rebuild it all from that point up, with new ported and polished heads, and a clean shiny painted block, and all new gaskets and bolts and heck maybe I'll even get a new timing chain and rockers and pushrods. Then I'll clean the top end and port and polish the intake, maybe I'll do a throttle body coolant bypass and throw in some new injectors. Then I can just slap the accessories back on her and top off all the fluids and drop it back in. At least I would know how to do that pretty well and its probably within my and my friends knowledge level to do without any problems. Then I won't have to worry about asking any questions.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

I don't see him as arguing, just asking questions and wanting to understand.

I had a similar situation about 10 years ago when I wanted to understand differential gearing. My dad explained it to me, but I swore to him that a 1:1 ratio would accelerate way faster than a 4.56:1.... Yeah, it look like 45 minutes for me to get it.
Noobs need patience and explanations, not discouragement. He's 18. He's the future of the hobby....

That said, NJK, please go away.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

says the guy with 2 posts

how much do you know about v6 motors, i would love to hear your input. everyone single person who has posted knows these motors front to back and have multiple.

its not bashing by anymeans, we have all done this and we have all been there

and now becuase youve come in here acting the way you have his thread will end up locked good job your a winner. if we were bashing it would already be locked

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Go back and read the bottom half of page 2 where FireInMe17 was arguing about FWD "3.1" block being the same a RWD "3.1" block, because he just didn't want to believe that he could be wrong in his thinking. I think he finally got it though.

If you're going to take the engine down to the assembled short block, you really should pull the rotating and reciprocating assembly out and at least inspect the bearings and rings to be sure they are still good.

Engines are simple mechanical items. Once you break each section down, they become easy to understand. Just follow the advice of people that have done it before and you won't have a problem, like numbering each piston and rod combo to make sure they go back in the same cylinder if you plan to re-use them with the original rings and bearings, provided they pass inspection.

Did I hear my name? No, I think it was just the wind...

FireInMe17

All I can say is thanks. Yeah, I posted this so I could understand. Every time I get on here and post I come to do it to understand. And almost every time I ask something I seem to get yelled and because of my lack of understanding. Well I'm sorry for that, but if I can't ever get the help to understand what it is I want to know about what we discuss on here, then how am I supposed to ever know.

The thing that I can't understand is why do parts need to be replaced if they are good, and why, if everyone else doesn't tune when they put in a new cam, do I absolutely have to tune, when the computer is supposed to just run the engine the way that it knows how to. Its not like I'm poisoning the computer with lead or something thats going to make it unable to process the information that it needs to run correctly, its still going to run, and I'm still going to make power.

I didn't even come here to try to understand those things, all I wanted was advice on what I could do to rebuild my engine, and build it up a little so that it will run a little better and maybe make a little more power.

The ways that I know how to make more power are to port/polish, increase CR, add a cam, make the rotating assembly lighter, get lighter pulleys, get better ignition, and clean it all up.

I want to know how the mechanical bits of it work so I can make my mechanical parts work right, and work just a little bit better than what they do now.

Sure, ok, I'm a noob. I really am. I don't know about how it ALL works, but I WANT TO! Thats what I told everyone when I bought the car when they called me crazy. I told them that I wanted to learn how to work on it so I could do just that, and I'll tell you that I know a whole hell of a lot more than I did when I bought it, but a rebuild is pretty much the ultimate form of understanding of an engine until you get into heavy mods that I don't want to do like turbos and stuff like that.

And thats all that I want, explanations that don't involve putting me down and discouraging me from doing this. I'm hell bent on doing it, I just need to get the right information. I don't want people on here that just keep yelling at me and telling me to leave.

It just makes me mad when I set guidelines for what I want to do in the opening post and people don't read it all the way through and suggest something completely different. Yeah, I want more performance, and yeah I'm setting limitations to it Six_Shooter, but I'm going to work with what I have, and well I don't have much. I don't have the means to do a hybrid, I don't have the funds to do a 3.4 swap, and apparently as I've been constantly reminded of, I don't have the understanding to tune.

Even with the limitations that I am setting for the build, I can still get more power out of it, and that is something that I know for sure.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

Define "good." Everything on my car has 175,000 miles and is old enough to vote. Despite this, it could be my daily driver with no issues. BUT, lets say I add 30 hp to the engine, I am now running more power on those old "good" parts. We say swap them, because it is probably time. Yes, you can save money and not swap part X, but do you really want to get the engine together and running, go do a quick takeoff and hear a clunk? Isn't peace-of-mind worth $100?

Yes, it will run without a tune. But would you rather have your cam swap yield 2.5 hp by itself, or 25 with a tune? (numbers pulled out of my @$$ for example only)

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

you dont understand becuase you think we are all just attacking you when infact we are just throwing out what we know and have learned by doing this for x amount of years

i wasted a lot of money at your age on parts and upgrades that well were just that, a waste

FireInMe17

Problem is the price we pay for piece of mind. I haven't even gone to advance or anything and priced all new gaskets for the car yet, and with what I want to get like headers, its going to eat my budget up quickly. I don't want to cut corners, but If I can find a way to save 100 bucks to get me other parts or save money then I'm going to. While I agree that replacing parts that wear down over time, I don't see why I have to replace something that doesn't show signs of wearing the wrong way or wearing down. Why fix it if it ain't broke?

So far I've only spent 100 bucks on this project by getting that T5 which I'll probably end up selling because chances are it would be just as much money to get my automatic rebuilt than it would be to get the rest of the parts for the T5 and get it to work in my car, which I'm guessing is just going to be a headache....

But whats the deal with having to get bearings machined onto the crank, or onto the aftermarket cam, bearings are bearings that are made to fit a part, why do they need additional finishing to work right?

I don't want to have the car in pieces for months, maybe just a month And If I have to get every single last thing machined, its going to be a few months.

Good: in working order, working the way it should be, having the right qualities to do a job the right way, fine, alright, not bad

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

*sigh*

See, go back and read this as if it were someone else writing it.

You basically contradict yourself within the same post, first saying, you don't understand, then summing it up by saying you do understand or at least believe you understand, when all we are trying to do is tell you that while you may understand some, we understand more and are trying to explain this, but due to your "self imposed limitations" that you should seek a different route.

I can see you understand VERY little of how an ECM interacts with the engine. All engines that have EFI, pretty much use all the same sensors, TPS, Coolant temp, MAP, O2, and a few others, some also have additional sensors like Manifold Air Temp and and MAF.

If you were to compare many different engines that were tuned properly, you'd see very similar readings from each sensor across all those engines.

For example: Compare the TPS signal of your V6 to a V8. Both will show approx .65V at closed throttle and close to 5V at wide open throttle, with the mod point being somewhere close to 2.5V. Same goes for the MAP, at idle both engines (with mild or stock cams) may show around 1V or so at idle, and will show 5V at WOT (assuming we're only discussing N/A engines, boosted can have less range, but that is a whole different ball of wax, and trying to keep it simple here), now taking these same readings between each engine and looking at their respective engines ECMs and more specifically the tune that is help within each, you will see that very different fueling requirements, or rather fuel delivery amounts are calculated.

Now take that same V6 or V8, swap the cams to something that produces less vacuum at idle, so the ECM sees a higher reading, say 1.5V, the ECM will then look at this point in the table and assume that the engine is under more load than it really is and deliver more fuel, causing the engine to run rich. Blip the throttle a little, and with the more aggresive cam, comes more fueling required for the same "amount of vacuum" signal you will now be running lean, move up to WOT and could be running very lean, due to the new characteristics of the engine with the new cam, since you are trying to increase power, you are doing this by increasing air flow, you also need to increase fuel delivery proportionately, to keep the engine running at it's peak.

This only touched on some very basic fuel requirement changes, it is more indepth, and there is also spark timing tables that will need some tweaking. While this may sound difficult at first, it really is not overly difficult, as long as you realize that you will only need to change, for the most part, some VE (Main fuel table for SD, MAF tables for a MAF ECM), some AE (Accel Enrichment, like a pump shot for a carb), probably a little of PE (Power Enrichment, like boosters for a carb, only over the entire RPM band) and some timing tables. It is only the tweakers of us that usually delve into tuning other parts of the tables in the ECM.

Yes, you can get away with using an untuned ECM, and yes the engine will run, but it will run with less than stellar results, and depending on how far you go with the mechanical changes, could mean a damaged engine.

We only suggest other things that you either have not considered or don't want to consider, because well, we've been there, done that and some of us even have the souvenir T-shirt to prove it.

I don't recall anyone saying anything about replacing what are still good bearings, but they DO need to be inspected, otherwise you're just assuming that they are good and that's when you usually get into a world of hurt/regret. FWIW, I re-used some used rod bearings in my "Franken60" build (Turbocharged hybrid, one of the first 660s I built), because the rod bearings looked good, I replaced the crank bearings though, because they didn't look as good to me, even though they came off the same crank.

When someone on here, that has done this for a while, and it shouldn't be difficult to spot the ones that have, say something is the way it is, it is for a reason, don't argue with them that it "doesn't make sense." If you want further explanation ask in way that is actually asking, not combative, and you will get more help, much more easily.
If someone DOES for some reason post some incorrect information, they WILL be corrected by one or many of us that do know the correct information.

FWIW, if you have the means to swap and rebuild a 2.8/3.1 you DO have the means to swap a 3.4. In this case the 3.4 would get treated as a 2.8/3.1 long block swap. But I haven't suggested that, nor a hybrid, because you didn't want that, and not everybody does. For me, I wouldn't consider any other way, but some people like their genI 660s, either for looks or some of us have to retain that look due to local emissions requirements, like those that live in California.

I did suggest the tuning, because even on a stock engine, there can be quite a bit of power, economy and driveabilty unlocked because GM used some pretty conservative tuning on these and most of their engines. It's also the only way to get the most out of any mechanical modifications. It can also be done quite inexpensively as well.

BTW, some of us do this as more than just a hobby.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

x11tybillion

I don't even want to think about how much money I've wasted on cars over the years learning what I do now.

firebird904

Let's just say for some reason TGO member's like Six_shooter and pillsbry10 were to completely stop helping other novice member's on here you would have nobody to help you with anything. FireInMe17 if it weren't for members that actually knew what they were talking about most of us would be completely stumped with car troubles or modding and would end up paying loads of cash to get what we want done. Ask your questions and listen to the opinions and advice that they give because they know what they are talking about I joined TGO not knowing a thing about car's and after asking questions getting help and reading around the board I've learned a lot. If your dead set on what you want to do than do it your way rather than talk about hating this site especially since there's sooooo many dedicated member's that help us out....

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You would be amazed at what some people do to a good or even brand new part to make it better, work better, or fit better, or have a better finish, all in the name of making more power, myself included in that group sometimes.

Which is why I will ALWAYS suggest, no matter who it is, when this is a requirement and this is their first rebuild, buy a second engine. It WILL take you longer than a month to re-build the engine, especially on limited funds. There is always SOMETHING that you won't forsee.

I was once told a bit of wise advice:

"Take your engine building budget and double it."

In just about every case that I have been involved in swapping and/or building engines this has been true, and if it wasn't it still cost more than the original budget.

So get a second engine, that way when the swap time comes, you will be able to do the swap in a weekend or two, depending your tools at hand and experience. The rebuild will take you longer than a month, unless you basically make it a full time job. There's lots of little things that will come up and take time. Or ordering parts that you didn't originally account for, because something broke in the removal process, or something just isn't available. You may need different pistons due to wear in the cylinders, among many, many other things that can come up.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

Listen to Six Shooter, back in my noob days he helped to straighten me out.

Think of it like public school, sure the teachers can be a little harsh but the education is free.

FireInMe17

Harsh to the point where I want to delete my account and sell my car?....

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

It takes dedication to be part of any community. If you get your feelings hurt that easy you won't last long on any forum. There are always people who know more than you in the world, For the simple fact that they are willing to share their knowledge for free you should be thankful.

89-bird

FireInMe17 I will give you my opinion on what you should do . 1st buy the 3.4 if it is a good price and do the mods to your intake and bolt it on with the 3.4 injectors and take and build up your 3.1 or sell it for funds to do more to your 3.4 and forgive me for saying but get what you need to tune it . Yes it will run without a tune but it will run better as others said with a tune . I personely would love to get a 3.4 with wiring and computer and drop it in with a T56 and headers but I don't have the funds to do anything . I also would love to be able to tune so I could get the most out of my engine or a 3.4 and maybe add a turbo .

micktroup2

"Harsh to the point where I want to delete my account and sell my car?...."

Come on man, get a grip. I have asked questions from inexperience or with unrealistic expectations and have been given advise that has set me straight or perhaps even admonished or criticized me- I haven't 'taken my ball and gone home'.
No one here is looking to belittle or demean you. But we all have experience working with these cars- I have had mine 5 years and have 250,000+ miles on the original engine- so we know what it takes to get and keep these cars running.
If you want to do an engine rebuild for $500 for example, don't be surprised if someone says a) that isn't enough of a budget, b) you are asking for trouble or c) 'this is a better way to do it...'
None of this is meant to cut you down, JUST HELP YOU.
Again, from experience: 1) doing a partial rebuild on an engine this old is risky. Many of us have started routine maintenance, only to have a bunch of broken parts fall out when we removed a pan or cover... 2) replacing things like bearings and bushings that may be 20 years old is CHEAP INSURANCE. 3) Building up a 3.4 and then swapping it in gives you a stronger platform to start from, a bigger engine- although only slightly, more horses and torque out of the box and no problems involved in the swap.
Take these points to heart or not, it is no skin off my nose- just a little friendly advise from a fellow thirdgenner...

micktroup2

And by the way, last winter I went to start my car, heard a bang and nothing. $500 later I find out that my timing chain had snapped. What's that cost, $60? That is the kind of part you replace every time you have the engine down, hot leave in because it 'looks good'.

TomP

LOL @ interweb

OK now back to topic:

We're suggesting completely different things because we want you to learn; I didn't see anyone here putting you down or discouraging you; seriously! You said you didn't want your car in pieces for months; well, honestly, what you outlined as a "winter project" would really take 1-2 years.

You asked about machining each individual part- that's the machine shop's job; if they're not overbooked, it'll take about a week. You bring them the block, crank, rods, pistons, heads, and ask them to machine it. They do what they have to do, and give it back to you, all the measuring's already done. You said you haven't priced gasket sets yet- well, please don't! Instead, keep that machine shop happy by buying a "full engine kit" (gaskets, pistons, o-rings, everything) from the machine shop. You'll be saving $$ (b/c they'll discount it for you), and you'll keep them happier (b/c they won't feel like you're cheating them out of a sale) when they do the work on your engine.

Please just call the machine shop and ask for prices on machine work and the rebuild kit. Then ask them for a separate price on a head/valve job. (Grinding valves down = much cheaper than buying new valves.) Let them change the cam bearings- you're probalby talking $25/bearings & $25/installation. (The tool for installation is $150- and if you install them wrong, you'll melt your cam, it's an "approved" best idea to let the shop do it.). After all the work of motor pull, teardown, machine shop- you don't want to spend $2000 and save $50 on cam bearings+installation. Don't forget that cam bearings come out before the hot-tank- would you rather have them put old bearings in or new ones? Another tip- have them "hot-tank" your oil pan- it's well worth the $$ having them clean it then you spend 2 days scraping the old burned oil out.

As far as tuning the ECM- I've noticed, at least, that the way I read your messages, it seems like you never ever ever want to tune the computer- but actually, do you mean that you don't want to tune it *now*?

By the way- a 3.4 swap will be much cheaper then rebuilding your own engine. The idea about buying a second engine, rebuilding it, and doing an engine swap, is a great idea b/c it means you could take longer to do it. If you want a true winter project, just put headers and cam/lifters/pushrods into your current engine. (Yes, when you change the cam, you need new lifters and pushrods. Don't forget about upgrading to better rocker arms too, but that's optional.)

FireInMe17

That 3.4L right down the road is out of commission.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Well, new pushrods are recommended/suggested when putting in a new cam, though not an absolute necessity imo, really depends who you ask, but you do have to at least organize them such a way that they go back in the same spot, the lifters however are a necessity. And if you do reuse your pushrods, check that they're straight, unpitted, rusted and such.

FireInMe17

I want to get all new hardware for the heads intake/exhaust so new pushrods and springs and rockers and the whole deal.

jensen73110

iTrader: (4)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlWddAXSRA

FireInMe17

Gee thanks jensen

project89

iTrader: (1)

........... nm

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

ROFL!!!!

That "Sergent" is an awesome actor too.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

heck ya, full metal jacket and texas chain saw

Fallen2603

LOL! Yeah, R. Lee Ermey's work in Full Metal Jacket was quite accurate of a Drill Sergeant/Drill Instructor during Basic Training/Boot Camp...SCARY ACCURATE.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

This is my camaro! There are many like it but this one is mine. Without me it is useless, without it I am useless!

Project 3.4 Camaro

Well I might be wrong but I'm almost positive that he actually was a sergeant in the marines...

project89

iTrader: (1)

GTA50

No offense to the OP, but this is why there is a search feature and why it should be used before asking questions.

FireInMe17

I always do search, I almost never get the questions answered that I need or want.

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

usually the people that ask the same questions that we have all answered before dont know how to use the search function or even that it exists. or they start their first post of by saying im to lazy to read the stickies or anything else you guys have already wrote will you write it again.

but hey, none of us yet have said to use the search function so thanks...that actually was a helpful post

"this is my maro this is my bird...this is for fighting this is for fun" lol

got have some fun in here sometimes or else we would get tired of repeating ourselves

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

i find that the easiest way to find things with search is to search by title only, and in your case just in the v6 board. makes it a bit easier to find things.

or even pm one of the guys that you see posting all the time, usually we will pm you back pretty quick as opposed to starting a new thiread all the time

GTA50

Also to build on what Pillsbry says, and to take it back to the beginning of the thread (and assuming you have done a search). What is your budget and what are your objectives? DD vs Track Car are two totally different scenarios.

For example a 5 sec, 900 hp N/A 3.1 V6 ain't gonna' happen unless you have some unobtainium from the Vogon constructor fleet.

FireInMe17

Daily driver. Looking to rebuild the engine to restore some of the lost performance of driving it everyday and reverse 20 years or driving. Just want to rebuild it right, and give it a little extra than what just a normal rebuild can give me.

I'd be happy with any gains.

I'm thinking if I just get a full cat back exhaust that it would give me part of what I'm looking for as well as new ignition and fuel system parts. Port and polish are a must.

I want to replace the valvetrain, just because its right there and will be easy to do. Gonna clean it all up and replace all the fluids and let her run.

Really I'd be happy if I could just reach something a bit closer to the power output of the 3.4L WITHOUT swapping for a 3.4L.

I just want the advice anyone else would want on rebuilding an engine for the first time and help with getting the right parts to get me there.

GTA50

Ooookkkkkaaaayyyy!!! Now we are talking and something that people here can really help you with. You can swap out the 3.4 as many have said. When I did my build, the machine shop did have a rebuilt 3.4 but that was $900 and not in my budget. As I mentioned previously, budget is important. So, what do you want to do with the 3.1?

GTA50

So, I will follow up, port and polish of heads, performance grind on valves, 260 grind cam, 1.52 roller tip rockers, double roller timing set, high volume oil pump, ARP studs for heads, Pacesetter headers, catback exhaust, CAI, and you can change timing........then tune!!!!!!!

This is a very basic setup but will give you a good launch - not the best, but good.

FireInMe17

Well I'll spend a grand on the engine and its components itself. The transmission and drivetrain will be a different budget, but that will probably be a grand too.

I'm thinking that I'm only gonna want mods that aren't going to give me gobs more power, just a little bit more power, so the bottom end should be more than well enough be able to handle just a little bit more power I am assuming, even though I've been told otherwise....but with a full exhaust, new valve train, which I still want to know more about what a roller valve train changes and will give me, with new stuff from the heads up, so I'll get new injectors and spark plugs and all that good stuff, but then I want to port and polish the heads to increase air flow.

I wish I could get a bigger throttle body to put on the car without some crazy mod/fab job to get the TV cable to mount up correctly. I already have a K&N so I'm good in that department. So thats the intake side of the engine.

The exhaust side is going to be all new also. My original exhaust is still in really good shape, but its starting to give into the elements and rust, when oddly enough the stainless steel of the exhaust is, the underside of the car is not....but I want to get all new while I'm doing this and spend the money to get a good cat-back system that will give me a more free flowing exhaust to let the engine breathe better on the exhaust side.

With those things I think I should be looking at the gains I want there, but if I can get away with deleting my smog pump and replacing all the pulleys with lighter weight ones then I can see more gains there.

I think I know what I want to do, I just need help in doing it, haha.

FireInMe17

That would be pretty good. But please explain what you mean by a performance grind haha.

And oh yeah I forgot to add headers to my list!

Project 3.4 Camaro

the underbodies have a protective coating on them, and I kind of have to ask, but why would you want to make it just a little more powerful, when for the same money and amount of work you could take it a decent bit further? just doesn't make sense to me...
As for roller valvetrain it is less friction/resistance, and thus more power....you really should read the thread i linked earlier, and lightweight pulleys don't really exist for our engines, you would have to get them custom made, although underdrive pulleys might be lighter because of less material, but no one makes them out of aluminum for some strange reason...

GTA50

Great to hear.

Now, the two things these engines lack is breathing and exhaust (to be politically correct - probably can't say beathe and fart). So, with the 260 grind cam and new push rods and 1.52 roller-tipped rockers (plus port and polish of heads and then performance grind on valves) you are fairly good on the breathing side. You can also add a CAI.

To open open up the exhaust, the headers and a cat-back will increase exhaust flow.

Many of the previous posters are much more expert than I and can add even more advise.

GTA50

Okay.....
most American cylinder heads benefit from a three angle radius valve job, but mostly because the American heads are so bad to begin with. Many American heads suffer from poor uneven castings right out of the box, so if performance is your goal, doing a multi angle valve job with bowl blending would be critical to your engines performance

copied from another site, but you get the idea - fit is essential for flow and therefore performance. Send the heads out to a machine shop for a port and polish and tell them to do a performance grind on the valvles.