douggoud

IGONORE ALL POSTS UP TILL #26, THIS IS A PREVIOUS THREAD!

hey, i'm having a bit of trouble with my camaro, i've bought a new Bosch Premium Fuel Pump



that goes to the camaro, but the problem i'm having is the relay connectors for the fuel pump itself



when we used a small wire and hooked up one of the ports that had power on the grey one to one of the other ports on the black one, we heard the fuel pump in the back make a sound, so, we know that the pump itself is working (which was our initial worry) but all the ports on the black relay connector have no power (we used a test light and two of the ports on the grey connector have power), so, right now, we dont exactly know what the problem is, i've looked up most of the help on here, but its mostly for the carburated engines, so i havent been able to find much help. anyways, there should be power in the black relay connector right? if so, what would i have to replace or fix in order to make it to were the fuel pump can work without having a ghetto fix like the black wire? lol (because, as some of you may know, i've already got enough ghetto fixes on this car from my mom and dad)

douggoud

also, there is no security light that comes on, so i dont think its a VATS problem, just possibly wiring or the computer

EDIT: i hope that this helps, this is how we hooked it up, the one highlighted on the black connector was the fuel pump apparently, and the two on the grey one were the ones with power, but we used the middle one.



and excuse the sloppyness, i used microsoft paint, and the paint brush sucks, lol, but it was the only thing that was big enough to see

K-slice

iTrader: (2)

With all that plugged in, will the pump prime (run) if you turn the key to the run position?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

See the pig tail above your left hand. That goes to the FP relay. Plug in the relay, key-off, wire +12 volts to it, and the pump should run. If you trace the wire that will let you know which of the two sockets are for the FP relay.

The others are for the fan and the A/C compressor.

Relay pin out:

A +12 volts from battery via inline fuse (org)
B N/C
C test pig tail (red)
D switched power from ECM to drive relay (dk grn/wht)
E power to fuel pump (gry)
F ground, relay coil (blk/wht)

RBob.

douggoud

i'm not sure, i'll have to wait till my moms boyfriend gets home in a couple days to find out, then i'll get back to you, i myself dont know too much about any of this (and thanks for the help)

douggoud

None of the pins on the pigtail have power, with the key on or off. If we jump 12v to the fuel pump pin, the pump runs. It's very hard to trace the pump wire as it goes into the wire loom and then goes? Checked 2 fusible links, they seem to be ok. could it be the computer or is there something else we're missing?
thanks

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Inline fuse is most likely popped. This is located up near the battery. There is a moderately heavy gauge wire that runs from the junction block, passenger side front, to an inline fuse holder (check this fuse!), then along the passenger fender well and on to the ECM & fuel pump relay.

RBob.

douggoud

ah ok, thanks, well have to try that (i think we looked for that fuse a couple times in that area and havent found it, maybe we were looking in the wrong area) oh well, i'll have to go check that myself then, i'll get back to you if it works or not

douggoud

actually, i went out and checked for about a half hour and i cant seem to find it (probably because i have no idea what it looks like and i dont know what side of the battery its on, i'm not the best at comprehending information, so if you could explain it to me (any) simpler, that would be appreciated, (because i dont know where the junction block is, or what a inline fuse holer looks like) in fact, i took some pictures, so if its not too much trouble could you point out on which picture where it is?











(and yeah, i know theres that bit of rust i have to catch before the battery drops out of the car)

and i apologize for my inability to understand all this, i havent had too much experience with cars (at least not the wiring, the engine,.....well, nothing other than riding in them. my mom's boyfriend isnt home again, but i'd like to try and get some of this done myself, becuase all i seem to do is watch, i dont actually do anything, so i'd like to learn and be able to do this myself)

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

You're looking at the DRIVER'S side of the car... The fuel pump inline fuse is next to the AIR FILTER can (actually the charcoal canister, in the lower left corner of your last pic, it's at the corner of the coolant jug). It's the one with the ORANGE AND RED wires. RBob was thinking of the V8 cars that have the battery on the other side of the car.

Don't worry so much about the battery tray for now until you get the car running. It's not bad. Heck, I'd buy it off of you if you were selling it (mine IS bad... actually, it WAS, I since cut it out and threw it out).

douggoud

(sorry for triple post)

but, would it happen to be any of the three things i've pointed an arrow at? (or in the general area?)

douggoud

OOOOHHHHH! ok, i'll go double check then, (i guess thats my bad, i didnt post wether it was a V6 or not, and i made sure it said injected and whatnot, lol)

i actually did see something of interest on that side when i was looking, but i kept thinking that it was on the battery side, i'll take a picture real quick

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The fuse looks basically like a connector that's connected to nothing (and also like a much smaller version of your fuel pump relay). Mostly because it's just a cover for the fuse.

douggoud

ok, so it would be that smaller thing in the back right? between the body and the container?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

That's it... There's only one inline fuse. The rest are fusible links. Actually, you may want to check those as well, as that is how the fuse gets power. That is, if the fuse isn't blown. The fusible link will be on the radiator support, in the corner next to the air filter can behind the high beam headlight, in the junction block.

douggoud

well, the fuse is blown, lol, so hopefully if i replace it (can i find another 20 fuse on the fuse box that isnt for a crucial component and try it an see if it works? because i'm not sure if i have spare fuses lying around the garage) then it'll run? (well, since the fuel pump is out of the fuel tank i'm not gonna turn it over, just to the one position and i should hear it run a for a sort time (or prime) right?)

douggoud

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE GOD!!!!!!!! i'd kiss you if i were gay, lol, but i'm not, so i wont, BUT THANK YOU! you saved me and my mom's boyfriend a whole lot of time and trouble, now all we have to do is, put the fuel pump back in the tank, put the tank back up in the car, put the support beams (or whatever they are) back into place, and so on and so forth and i have myself a running car! W00T! and thanks to everyone else that helped me as well, I'M SO HAPPY!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I keep forgetting the V6 cars have the battery on the drivers side. But you got it so good to go. That fuse provides battery power to the ECM and to the fuel pump relay.

Note that once running you should do an idle learn. Otherwise it will be stalling & surging. A search with my name and "idle learn" will being up threads on how to do it.

As for your pic with the arrows:

Upper right arrow is the windshield wiper motor

Upper left arrow is the MAP sensor

Lower left arrow is pointing toward the ignition coil. Not sure if that is what you are actually referring too.

RBob.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

You need to find out why the fuse blew in the first place before you do anything else. That fuse only powers the fuel pump and the ECM constant power circuits. If there is a short anywhere, you need to find out where and fix it or you'll burn out fuses like no tomorrow and your car won't go anywhere (no constant power to the ECM either... No power to the ECM means no go).

douggoud

i'm pretty sure that the fuse is just old, i mean, none of us even knew that that fuse was there so it probably has never been replaced (not like the damn manual says anywhere in it that that fuse is over there, it has it located on the fuse box, lol), but then i might be wrong, but i first wanna put the whole thing back together then run it (after i change the oil, get new fuel, change the transmission fluid, etc.) and then see if the fuse holds up (because the last thing i want to do is go through all that wiring, but then, if i do run the car and this does happen, it wont make anything worse will it? other than one lost fuse) because then i'll have to find a way to get my car all the way to anaheim to my dads house, because he knows about electronics, and has been the one that really got this car to 240,000+ miles

douggoud

alright, i'll check that out, thanks, is this is only for when you replace the fuel pump? or when you first start the car in a year or two?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Idle learn is for whenever the ECM loses battery power. With the '90-'92 MPFI cars the ECM uses the air flow through the IAC as part of the fueling strategy. The ECM learns, or keeps, the IAC airflow in order to do this.

Remove battery power from the ECM and it forgets the settings. Then needs to re-learn them. It is easy to do the idle learn, just a little inconvenient and somewhat time consuming.

RBob.

walkthelin3

my v6 has the battery on the passenger side.. must be the intake that debates where it should be.. i got the dual snorkel one that goes to the radiator..maybe thats why?

novafirebirdguy

Yup, us cool v6ers with the iroc intake get a passenger side battery

walkthelin3

lol what you said just made my day/night

douggoud

SHE IS ALIVE!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM1Lops1wVQ

thanks again guys, i drove her around the block (almost hit some damn birds that just decided to sit where they were till the last second) and she ran great except for one stop where it sort of sputered, but it was fine the rest of the way, and i get to take my drivers test tomorrow, lol, i plan on taking this test once, and ONLY once, lol

douggoud

GHAAAA! unfortunatly, after 7 or 8 starts, the fuel pump gave out, Again! just tried to start it up a day or two ago and guess what, no nothing. i tried listening for the fuel pump to put some fuel to the engine before you start it (and i could hear it when i did this before), now i hear nothing, so i'm guessing that the fuel pump blew up, again, and the fues is not blown, i checked. so i dont know what it could be now. the only things that i think it could be are that the metal fuel lines that run from the top of the fuel tank to the other ones that run to the engine, are too bent and are causing excess pressure and making the fuel pump work too hard and causing it to break, (because if you saw the old pump, which was actually new in a sense, it wasnt the original, [ we replaced it a year ago and drove to go get it smoged], you'd start to think the same). anyways, its either that, or the fuel lines after the ones on top of the fuel tank are clogged or something (but we undid the fuel line by the engine to see if the pump sent any fuel to the engine, and it spit out fuel, so i dont think that that is it). so i really dont know whats wrong this time.

also, the fuel gauge is reading past full, and after opening that fuel tank, i know dam well that it is not full (maybe half full, but not full) so i need some help with that.

also, i need help wiring the radiator to where it stays on ALL the time, this car gets hot VERY easily in traffic, and i mean EASILY, i mean, i probably couldnt sit for more than 20 minutes without it starting to go up into the red, but someone had it wired to where the radiator fan ran all the time, and it wasnt an issue, but then we had it fixed again, and it got removed, or rewired back to how it should be originally, so its a problem again (i'll look up any threads for that, so i wont need help for that yet, just might later on if i cant find anything)

so yeah, should i buy a new fuel line assembly for the fuel tank? (new pipes/tubes, floater and everything, the works! lol) or is there another way to fix this without going through another fuel pump (thank god i've got a warrenty on it or i'd be screwed)

douggoud

ok, heres what i was talking about:



i remember reading in the repair and maintinance manual that there was a diagram that had the fuel line assembly with 3 bends in it, mine only has 2, so i'm not sure



but then, heres a new one on autopartswarehouse .com and it looks the same (although a bit on the shiny side, lol)





and this is the old fuel pump before the new bosch one that i have in the tank now (that is probably broken as well)





the fact that the cover got so melted and torn up while in the tank over the course of a year and maybe 1 or 2 starts, really worries me, and the little rubber pipe that is attached to the end of the fuel pump and then to the fuel line, it was busted completely open, as if it had been under extreme pressure (and it has a capability of 50 psi if i remember correctly)



and then the fuel gauge says that, past full

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

First thing I would do is get a hold of a blow gun and a compressor. Crank the compressor up to 90 PSI, remove the fuel hoses on the engine end and down by the fuel tank, and blow the crud out of the lines between. Remove the fuel filter when you blow out the pressure line and blow out both sides (make sure you have a bucket handy when you do this as the gas in the lines is going to SHOOT out of there).

If you have no gauge either, then I would suspect the connection at the body by the fuel tank (with the yellow plug). If the gauge signal is disconnected from the sending unit, the gauge will pretty much always read off the scale HIGH (or FULL), same as the coolant temp and oil pressure gauges (if equipped). If the gauge signal is disconnected, I would likely assume that the fuel pump power and ground are also.

You do realize that, if you don't make the lines yourself, the fuel lines are like $70 a piece, right? Well, at least from a resto house such as Classic Industries.

douggoud

alright, but would i have to remove the gas tank first? because it would be awfully difficult to get the air hose to that one line, and the thing is connected, i made sure of that when we put it all back together, and it ran before, so, like you said, if it wasnt connected, then the pump wouldnt run right? so i know that it is because i started it like 7 or 8 times. and yeah, i found that shiny chrome one for like $120 some, lol, but i mean, honestly, if the fuel line isnt clogged, i have no clue why the fuel pump keeps breaking

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The yellow connector is on the body above the rearend housing. Won't hurt to check. Also won't hurt to get a voltmeter down there and make sure the power is getting there where it should be. Could also connect a 9V battery to the power and ground at the connector (tank side of course) to see if the pump runs.

Don't need to worry about the tank lines. They look fine. Blow out the body lines between the rubber hoses at the fuel tank end and the engine end. If you really want to, you can disconnect the hard lines at the fuel rail and blow everything except the rail out from front to back. Also, make sure you installed the fuel filter in the right direction. Most filters ONLY flow ONE WAY.

K-slice

iTrader: (2)

As far as your cooling problems go. I'd look at finding the REAL solution to that problem rather than just making the fan run constantly. Normally a car shouldnt need help from the fan unless it's sitting in trafic for long periods of time in the summer. My guess is either you coolant is very bad, yout thermostat is broken, or you have a clog somewhere in the radiator or coolant lines...

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Definitely flush your cooling system... Sounds as though the radiator is full of crud and needs to be backflushed (there is a kit by Prestone available even at WalMart for this). You CAN wire the fan to a switch to turn on when you need, but I'd check the system out thoroughly first. Lack of heat transfer to the coolant from the engine and to the radiator from the coolant means bad things. And yes, these cars do get hot quick when not moving. Which is why I will turn my heater on HIGH when I end up sitting for a while (if I don't shut it off... Say when I'm waiting for a LONG train to get moving across a crossing). And don't leave the car in Drive while waiting for a while... Shift into Neutral and let the transmission cool down while you're waiting. The trans cooler is in the radiator and heats the coolant up rather quick (which is why it takes FOREVER now for my engine to warm up compared to before I swapped in the T5).

douggoud

well the car has always seemed to get how quick in traffic regardless, (at least as long as i can remeber), but yeah, i intended to change the oil, coolant, air filter, fuel filter, oil filter, transmission fluid, gas, and anything else that there is. also, right now i'm changing the column the steering wheel, (because of some a holes that tried to steal it 2 or 3 years ago) and right now i'm down to the ignition lock, but the repair manual (which is now ticking me off) never mentions any wires, and i'll tell you this, there are more wires in that steering column than i thought you could fit in it, so to remove the old column, i have to cut the ignition lock wire right? or is there a place i can disconnect it? (without removing the whole steering column from the car, which, every day, seems like that might be easier, or just getting a ew car, but i dont wanna do that) (i was doing this at the time because it "apparently" by how easy it seemed in the manual, was the only thing i was up to doing myself, which has ended in a wall.....again.

ASE doc

By ignition lock wire, I assume you mean the VATS wires(two small wires from the ignition cylinder. Dont cut these or your car may not start when you're done. There is a connector just outside the collumn that will seperate the cylinder side of the circuit from the harness that goes to the VATS module.

As far as your fuel gauge goes, a poor ground will cause the gauge to read over full. A poor ground will also cause your fuel pump to either not work or to fail prematurely by running it on low voltage. Remember, the positive power supply to a device is only one side of the circuit. The ground is the other side. A poor connection on either side will cause low voltage, even though your power supply voltage may test fine.

G304 provides ground for the pump and the gauge sending unit. Its below the center of the rear seat. Find it and see that it's clean and tight. (You will likely have to pull the rear seat base to get to it.)

You may have cut into the wiring when you cut that huge hole in your floor pan(what you call an access door). I know the access door probably seemed like a good idea, but believe me, lots of us get by without cutting up our cars. I wish people would quit hacking up these cars like that(that's me b**ching). I installed dual external pumps to feed my beasty 355 so I never need to get into the tank again.

BTW, the bends in your fuel pipes look perfectly normal. If you're concerned about a restriction in the lines, after you've fixed the fuel pump issue, install a pressure gauge in the supply line close to the pump(where the rubber section meets the steel line). Watch for high pressure there as an indsication of a restriced line. Remove the filter and retest to verify that the filter isn't the restriction. Remove the supply line from the TB and look for pressure as you free flow the pump. There shouldn't be more than 3 psi from the normal restriction of the system and you should expect to see a strong stream from the open end of the line.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

In the first pic of the sending unit through your access hole, it looks like both the purple wire and the tan wire are either really shiny or got nicked sometime when you were pulling the pump out (might even be that the purple one got it twice, again by the yellow sending unit cap), right at the end of the wire loom. That could be the cause of the gauge and fuel pump power issues right there if they actually are damaged.

IIRC, the ignition lock wires will be orange and white coming out of the steering column in a very tiny 2-wire connector on the radio side. Depending on what you're doing, it would probably be better to at least drop the column from the dash support so you can get your hands all the way around it. You may need to remove the dash support from the column anyways to get the wiring out so you can replace the shroud and side cover (if that's what you're doing, and I'm going to assume so since that is the part thieves often break when trying to steal our cars). There is a pictorial on one of the G-body forums on how to disassemble and reassemble the column right down to the tilt bolts that are always coming loose.

douggoud

do you have a link? because i dont exactly know where that would be. because i'm at the point where the stupid steering column collar is keeping me from getting the wires for the turn signal and all that out of my way and putting the new column on

Chevymane

i got a tpi and its doing the same stuff