86White_T/A305

Ive decided on the parts for my mild 383 build for a very streetable..reliable cruiser and maybe a trip to the track car.

Here is what Im building:

eagle 383 kit
af comp 180 heads,65cc
compcam xfi268 with hyd flat tappet lifters
1.6 rr
hooker 2055 headers
march pullies
58mm throttle body..might start with the factory 48mm for initial start up
dbl roller chain
running the 730ecm on aujp bin and will tune with realtime emulation using ostrich2.0 from moates.net
2800 stall,built 700r4 and stock posi with 3:23 gears

How much hp/tq do you think I might be able to squeeze out of this combo?

5.0 Eater

iTrader: (2)

mid 12's in the 1/4, 350-380 rwhp. I would strongly sugest the afr 195 comps over the 180's. You won't notice the lack in low end.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Gonna be a torquey motor with those heads/cam but should work out ok for a mild build. I'd say 360 whp, all in by 5500. 400wtq.

Capable of high 11 second pass but would rather see 3200-3400 stall. Also agree with the 195cc heads

86White_T/A305

this is where im still having a hard time picking out what i want.i choose 180cc comps with 8019 springs becuase i searched and found that it would be a crips responsive motor and pull to around 6-6500 rpm and decent torque curve.i was also thinking of returning my cam and going with a xfi 280 and 195 afr heads...how much gain can be had with jsut going to 195cc with the xfi 268 i already own?

Burnout91

My combo has plenty of low end torque and crisp throttle response; a 383 should be even better than my 350.

Bill

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The throttle response will also be dependent on engine accessories and your tune! You can have small heads for fast port velocity, but heavy engine accessories and a poor tune will give you a lazy throttle motor.

Tuning for the throttle tip-in make take alittle time but greatly improves response. Also, underdrive/lightweight pullies helps make a motor rev faster. I noticed huge difference with March underdrive pullies compared to stock L98 stuff.

That being said, 195cc's will still give you good port velocity, and are the heads you need to pull to over 6000 rpm. The 218/224 XFI cam will not need to go much higher than 6000 rpm as it should be peaked by 5500 rpm. The 280 XFI is 230/236 and will want to peak closer to 6000 rpm so you will want to rev to 6200-6500 to take advantage of it.

I think you will see 15-20 hp or so with XFI268 cam and 195's over the 180 comp port heads. For the money, street 195's will outflow the comp 180's and are a better overall choice just on savings alone. 195 street heads are 1450 or so while comp ports I believe are closer to 1800. Thats a nice savings. Extra flow would go well with the HSR and the 383.

With 383 inches, you will have plenty of torque to get the car moving, so you dont have to go small with the heads. Big high flowing heads and small cams make good power while keeping streetability. I dont think you will be disappointed in the 268/195 combo. It will be a very tame motor but have some power.

Now with the 280 xfi cam, you should see a good increase in power. I'd say 20-30hp over the 268 cam on a 383 using the 195 heads. But there are guys that have made great power with the 268. I would expect that cam to be done around 355-360whp on most 383's but Burnouts 350 above is showing 387whp!! Thats insane. For your goals the 280may be a touch too big. Certainly very streetable but the rpm range may be abit higher than you wanted for a street cruiser. I would expect it to be worth 380-400whp on a 383. A custom 224/230 XFI (276XFI) would be a great choice I think and surprised comp cams doesnt offer it off the shelf.

Seen a magazine articel a few years ago where they put 180's on a 406 and it make alot of torque and mid 400's hp, but i'd be curious to see how it would have done with 195's. 180's do work, just I think for 383 inches and up, 195's are a minimum regardless of cam size

5.0 Eater

iTrader: (2)

I have nearly the exact same setup you are pondering over. Only exception is I'm running edelbrock etec 200cc heads instead of afrs and I have a m6 trans. I went with the 280 xfi cam and my engine has tons of low end torque but still pulls strong to 6400. Don't be afraid to go up to the bigger heads and cam. With efi you can make a bad mannered motor more streetable. I have told myself many times that this specific head or this intake or this cam is too big, but each time I go small I wish I would of gone bigger. Also once I get there I realize Its much more street freindly that I thought. The last small block plan I made was to go with a s/r cam, miniram, and 195 comp heads. You're best bet is to skip the first, too mild, build. Just my two cents.

86White_T/A305

Well then ill surely option for the 195cc heads...now im wishing i got the xfi 280 cam.i but the cam,lifters and timing chain as a complete set on ebay months back because at that time i was planning on just building my motor as a 355.the rebuild kits now have gotten marginally cheaper and to upgrade to 383 is next to nothing aswell.my only concern is tuning the cam since im using a map setup ..i was told the xfi268 is a great streetable cam to tune on a 114lsa.
will the xfi268 or 28 be a choppy idle sounding cams?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Wont be all that choppy. 268 will be pretty tame. 280 you will know there is a cam in the car but its certainly not choppy. If you drop the idle rpm as much as you can you can get it to have more of a lope to it. Raise it up and it will go away. All in the tune

Either one should work fine in a 383 with MAP based cars

I have a 233/233 on a 112 in my 401 and its pretty tame sounding. The idle is a touch eratic so it sounds like it has more lope than it should. Definately not a stock sounding car, you can tell its got a cam but its not what i call lopey. I got two vids of it on youtube with 2 different exhausts

86White_T/A305

Ah..well for the added 20+whp I can get switching to the xfi 280 sounds worth it.A tame sounding motor the performs well just isnt the look ideal I had in mind when you think of a 383 lol.Aside from it being chopey at idle..Id like to physically hear that a cam is in the car...looks like Ill be posting up an xfi 268 for sale in order to grab the 280.If I cant sell it relatively fast then Ill stick with it and continue with the build and purchase the 195 afrs with 8019 springs.Play with that for awhile and practice tuning...by then I can think about adding a bigger cam ad maybe tickle myself with some nitrous or supercharge on small boost.

vwdave

The cam that AFR uses on a 350/195 setup is a 276-280. Food for thought.

Im actually selling off my 195's (competition ported) and my 224/230 .534" lift cam. I have TONS of stuff that might be a upgrade for you. Im being a sellout and going Gen 3 6.0.

Just to give you a idea how the car runs, 15.0 a/f, 17* initial timing, 900rpm's the car makes 12" of vacuum and will run the AC and power brakes with no issues. Cam needs a 2800 stall on a 350. A 383 should do ALOT better.

86White_T/A305

Very good piece of info there,thank you.And if you are looking to get rid of the heads I might be interested so please pm me and we can discuss that further.

Im getting more and more anxious to tear it down and do it all lol..sounds like this setup is a very well proven street/strip combo Im looking for and then some.

TPI-Formula350-

I'm having my 383/SuperRam/280XFI/Brodix 200IK motor built now. I'm having it run up on an engine stand Dyno(with a carb) within the next 2 weeks. Then I'm going to put the car on a chassie dyno once its installed so I'll get some good #s on what kinda power the engine makes it the flywheel(with carb) and what kinda power it makes in the car with the SuperRam
Comp Cam suggested the 280XFI and I'll have only heard good thing with that cam and FI setups

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I agree with the above posts. Maybe 350rwhp with the first set of parts. I also agree with the AFR195 heads and the XFI 280 camshaft. One thing I did not see mentioned is the compression ratio. If I was building your motor I would like to see something in the 10.5 to 11.0:1 range. With a good quench and the dual quench pad AFR aluminum heads you can get away with higher compression ratio.

One more thing. This is based on a good induction system and a good exhaust system. From the air filter to the tail pipe.

vwdave

Im going to sell my pistons and rods first, that should buy me the motor, then start selling off everything else once I have the motor. I dont want to completely gut the car yet. I dont want to have to push it in and out of my shop everyday.

86White_T/A305

i dont have a cr in mind yet but im assuming around 10.5:1 to use premium fuel only.as far as intake and exhaust i got 4inch pipe and kn filter,full exhuast is done already with headers and catback so i should be ok.my 24lbs injectors might be an issues after tuning more heavily.

and i totally understand not wanting to tear the car down untill you know for sure whats going on..thats exactly why im here asking these questions..to save myself the time and aggreivation.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

383 with most flat tops and 64-65 cc chambers is 11 to 1 and perfect for 93 octane gas. Depending on the cam, you can go even higher on compression and be fine on pump, but you wont need more than 10.5-11 anyway

86White_T/A305

well im at the point now that im for sure going to run the afr 190 heads and upgraded springs...my only question now is should i stick with the xfi280 cam or maybe try the xfi 292.i think the 292 is going to be more than im ready to handle since im not used to owning something with over 400hp at the wheels.

TPI-Formula350-

I'll have engine stand dyno numbers for you next week for my 383/280XFI

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

stick with the 280 cam. the 292 is pretty wild. That cam would like 210+cc heads/4000 stall/large tube headers/11-11.5 to 1 comp for best track performance

86White_T/A305

Id love to see what your motor puts down after the dyno.Are you running the stock ecm or aftermarket.If its stock who tuned it for you? Post a vid of it running if you get a chance

As for the xfi 290.. I knew it was pretty wild cam and Im sure it will need a few other upgrades thats probably goin to take me out of my budget for this build.Switching to the 195cc afr an 8019 springs was a jump already.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I remember some stock LT1 guys with bolt ons were going XFI 292 and saying it idled better than the CC306 which is a good bit smaller on the intake side and down on lift. I dont recall any numbers from them but one 396 LT1 made the switch to the 292 cam and he said it was pulling to near 7000 rpm and i dont doubt it. That cam should peak in the mid high 6k range on a 383. Its a big cam

Has as much overlap at .050 as my old 383 cam so tuning is doable and it should be well mannered enough to drive on the street. Its got less overlap at advertised duration than my old 383 cam and less lift. So it will run fine but it will want to turn some serious rpm. Its lobes are abit more aggressive than my cam so valve spring control will be crucial.

Duts87ss

iTrader: (10)

I'm running a 383 AFR180 (street) 268XFI combo in my Monte. I've yet to get the tune well enough to really feel what it's got in it (thanks for the help you've given getting me as far as I am, Orr), but what I can feel is tons of potential. I chose the heads and cam because I based my build on a *very* street friendly, daily driver type setup that could tote the mail. My static cr is also around 9.7:1 so that I can get going with 87 octane once tuned; I'll run 89 when I know I'm going to play hard.

My plans are to supercharge the setup later; so choosing parts on the tame side had even more emphasis.

On the converter side, Edge Racing recommended a stall in the range of 2800-3200. Again, I went conservative with 2800 because of the DD theme. When the charger makes it's way on, the torque will obviously increase and bring the stall speed up with it.

86White_T/A305

sounds like a nice mild street car,do you have any vids or sound clips of it running.very interested in know more of your setup and how it performs so far on the street and when you get heavy on the loud pedal lol

Duts87ss

iTrader: (10)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdBuNwlQtHE

The car drives around as easily as the factory 305 did. I've yet to be able to use WOT; I'm working on my AE and PE tune still.

86White_T/A305

Very nice sounding.What are you using to tune,I might be asking you for tips on tuning later on if your still using the 730 ecm.I got a ostrich right now just learning to play with very small things on my carputer.Im hoping my car with the xfi280 will sound a lil more throaty than that.Do you have any dyno numbers on this setup?

Duts87ss

iTrader: (10)

I'm running a '165 MAF setup. I'm using TunerPro with an AutoPROM for tuning with much help from the guys on this board. No dyno numbers as I haven't been able to use WOT.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Is it starting to show signs of coming around as far as PE/AE tuning is concerned?

Duts87ss

iTrader: (10)

Still haven't made a chip and driven it since I got the datalog with PE enable maxed. I did get some good reading though. Looks like I'll be maxing the MAF around the same area you were. Right now it's maxing at ~3900 at 3/4 throttle, but I need to back off the value some. I'm going to have to back off AE a lot. As you said earlier, this is probably one of the problems I was having.

I should get another data log tomorrow.

86White_T/A305

do any of you know the advantages of using a fluid dampener compared to a regular sfi dampener.i ask because my old 355 had a fluid dampener on it and im wondering if it was wise to let it go when i sold the block and should have re-used it?

if it makes a big difference to go with a fluid harmonic then ill buy a new one for the extra $100 bucks or so

355tpipickup

iTrader: (5)

would any of these cambos pass emmissions?

86White_T/A305

the setup im building will not pass emissions.but depending where you live and what you plan to build will determine if you can sneak by emissions or not.you can easily build a 350 or 383 using emissions legal parts..headers with a.i.r,intake with egr provisions and use the factory smog pump.the loss in power is nothing to be concerned about..talking in the neighborhood of 10-15hp if memory serves me correctly.

the disadvantage is the throttle response from the pulleys isnt as crips but not a big deal,its visually not appealing to me,i would assume its a lil harder to tune but dont quote me on that.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

depends on the state but the HSR doesnt have EGR so at idle the tune would have to be pretty good to pass. 01-02 LS1 cars dont have EGR and still pass so it can be done with good cats and air system.

I know the 280XFI and similar grinds pass cali smog, as the california guys here have some wicked TPI combos that use similar sized cams and make good power while being cali emissions legal.

86White_T/A305

anyone have any advice over using a fluid damper as opposed to a regular damper that would come with the stroker kit?

i ordered the afr 195cc heads,280xfi cam,kirban fuel regulator,and fuel rail kit for my hsr.

getting ready to pull the motor out and send it off to be put together.the itch is starting to settle in now as parts arrive at my door lol

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I used a regular damper on my 383 and its now on my 401. I dont know the advantages or disadvantages sorry. I havent had a problem with my setup tho.

86White_T/A305

So Im about to lay down the law and purchase the afr 195cc heads and cant decide if I should spring the extra $550 or so more to go with the competition instead of the eliminators.Funding is getting rather tight now on this build and as its come down to being nearly complete Im focusing on real life conditions or how hard Ill be driving this motor.I dont think ill be using the comp series head to full capacity to make it worth my wild compared to the eliminators,considering my original idea was to use the 180cc comps and the xfi268 cam. I think with using the xfi280 and afr 195cc with spring upgrade should hit it right spot on for my goal of 380whp once tuned.

My last piece of the puzzle Im not sure what to purchase yet are the rockers.What brands and size do you guys suggest.Id like to say 1.6 but I dont know which brands are good to trust and I know afr heads require non self-aligning rockers correct?

5.0 Eater

iTrader: (2)

Contact 88BlackZ-51 for a good deal on a set of afr heads. I think he can get the 1040's for 1250 shipped. These are straight from afr so you have to wait for them to be built(about 5 weeks now) but its a pretty good deal. I went with the comp ports because I want to try and push my motor a little. Afr said to use scorpion, crain gold, or harland sharp rockers with my heads. I am useing 1.50 springs. The standard springs are 1.25 so pretty much any non self allining rocker will work with them.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

go with the 195cc heads and the xfi280 cam. im running the same combo.

9.8:1 with perfect QUENCH! HSR, ported and portmatched to felpro1206, Patriot 195cc heads, ported and portmatched to 1206s. dual spring upgrade 1.5" dual springs, good for .720" lift. 58mm TB, march crank underdrive pulley, XFI 280 cam, LS7 lifters, 1.6rr, but im running SRP forged -16cc dished pistons and file fit moly rings. Im hoping for the 470-480fwhp which equates out to the 380rwhp that you want... now am i getting that idk. but i am running the stock 165 MAF ECM with moates chip adapter and tunerpro... no dataloggin and no wideband but i did get alot of help from orr89roc and some other memebers, i started with orr89s tune and then found a better tune for my combo and it was an original tuned by craig moates for a XFI280 383. worked out great. i have the car idling solid at like 800-850 and pulls 14" of vacume in park, and like 12 in drive. idles smooth and makes AMAZING power at the strip. i only ran a 13.5 with no traction but my MPH was at 111mph trap speed (that was with 2 blown lifters and a snapped rocker stud too) 60' was miserable with 2.2-2.4 average (stock 225 crown vic bald street tires) and i was spinning on the 1-2 shift as well up to the 1000' mark easily. im running a 2900 stall too but mines a DD. gona throw some drag radials to get the dang thing to hook and i expect high 11s with a 114-115mph trap speed.

basically the XFI280 cam is very streetable, u can tell its got alittle lope but its behaves very nicely, great throttle response. i cheaped out on the heads tho. 195cc patriots flow 260cfm and only cost me 890$ shipped to my door new from skips white performance with the spring upgrade etc. AFRs will make more power tho in the 195cc range.

I also had some issues with throttle tip in and i had to play around a while with the AE and the lower MAF tables. what i need to get is a wideband and some datta logging stuff to fine tune it. but it runs great, runs really rich at idle but thats what it wants.

im also running 1.6 proform self aligning rockers on my heads, no guidplates but i would love to upgrade to guidplates and non self aligning rockers with a stud girdle. i had to grind the underside of the rockers a smidge to get the to fit my large 1.55" springs bc the proforms where only good for 1.4" i believe (bought them 4 yrs ago for my stock heads)

86White_T/A305

Im excited about this combo from all the great advice you guys have given me.The 380whp is exactly what my goals are and Ill be running damn near same setup as you but my only issue is finding a good starting bin for speed density with this combo just to get me running.I havent played with tunning enough yet to be certain of trying to fire the motor with my old 355 bin that had heads and cam but did run very well.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

also u can get the HSR to be smog legal... the miniram EGR works on the HSR as well i believe.

speed density is not nearly as forgiving as a MAF system. tuning a speed density ECM will be very difficult unless u do alot of research. GM had it right with the MAF system then they went to SD... and guess what? their back to MAF... maf is better system bc it actually measures the air vs "guessing" wat the SD does. MAFs are only aproblem bc of there size and placement in the intake tract. but newer LS models are thin and flow ALOT!

your engine will run with the stock 355 bin... i was able to start my 383 with my motorvation 350TPI stock chip. it ran insane rich and didnt like throttle but it did run lol.

stay away from the ARAP bins... they are too aggressive with the timing etc, im running the AUJP bin i think, the one i got from orr89rocZ.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

With him needing a SD tune mine will not work since its MAF. My advice is to maybe ask for a base bin from someone else on this board through PM's if they have a similar combo or try PCMforless for a base bin.

86White_T/A305

Im sure I can get it to run off of my 355 bin,Im just hoping it can reun decent enough for me to be able to troubleshoot making it run right and not be all over the map.My previous tune was rich but Im hoping it being on the 383 might run closer to stoich with more cubes and more air coming in.

As for being SD Im in for a long battle of tuning questions and trial n error before I get to see what this motor can really put out but it also gives me time to nicely break the motor in.

Right now Im in the process of buying all the lil odd end pieces I need for the hsr swap..fittings,braided fuel lines,thermostat etc and in 2 weeks the motor will be out for machining.I wan to have as much of the parts i need already bought and then save up for things to make it pretty...paint,polishing and im upgrading my lighting system and wire tucking with the open engine bay.

badgta

iTrader: (4)

you either have loud injectors or valve needing adjustment....

Duts87ss

iTrader: (10)

I was using LS1-style injectors at the time. They're noisy.

86White_T/A305

Just an update guys. I got the motor out and its at the machine shop.The stroker kits are backordered because alot of people are building 383 motors lately due to the price.

My engine builder had a few comments about this setup that id like to get some second opinions on as Im awaiting my rotating assembly.First he doesnt suggest i move up to 30+lb injectors since I already have 24lb svo's.He said that the duty cycle of the 24's as more than adequate enough for what the motor will run and that even the stock lt1 22lb injectors were good upto 400hp.

Also Ill be running a cr of 10.2-.4 due to our lack of premium fuel suppliers becoming scarce in our area.He insist convince that the motor will put out close to 350+whp as man of you have thought..Im itching to prove that wrong lol.he is an oldschool guy and been around building motors for a very long time.I do trust in his work and seen many other cars hes built run very well.

hes taking the time to smooth the block casting flash off inside and out,paint the block to match.mentioned Im using a 86 4bolt full size chevy truck block is good to.here are some pics of the heads and intake I painted so far.

Duts87ss

iTrader: (10)

Go with the 30lb injectors. I see high 80s - low 90s DC often when going WOT.

By the way, I went to RBob's EBL and tuning is now so much easier. Being able to log AFR with PRM is soooo nice.

86White_T/A305

I will eventually upgrade the injectors anyway to the newer bosch 3 since they are more efficient injectors and I might pick up a lil hp out of them.Im also going to get a bin from pcmforless and use that to run the car for now and tune things later once the motor is broken in.Im very excited..too bad my wallet doesnt share the same enthusiasm lol

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

i agree with the 30lb injectors... i have them on my 383 HSR and they work great. ud be pushing it with the 24s. you could prob push the stock Lt1 22lb to 400hp but they would be maxed out and your PSI would be really high... above 50psi id say which is no good.

wats the stroker kit look like? forged pistons i hope. and a good scat crank/rods?

86White_T/A305

I dont have the exact spec of the eagle kit but I know its not a forged kit.I couldnt afford it for now :S I dont think Il will be pushing the motor beyond the limits the cast eagle kits will handle.My engine builder says it will still take a 100-150 shot just fine but if I plan on doing anymore than that or even using boost..all bets are off.

The injectors will be changed later in a month or so and Im hoping it will be tuned by then aswell.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

just a word of caution.... dnt use eagle kits. they are really hit or miss with the quality. i did alot of research before i bought my 383 rotating kit. most if not everyone was pleased with the scat kits... many liked the eagle kits but they were weak (rods/crank) and alot had failures. the company i bought my rotating kit from CNCmotorsports.com said that they had a circle track car (company car) and they had broken 3 eagle cast cranks in one season. they then switched to scat stuff and havent had a problem, car was NA too and wasnt making crazy hp. alot of the stuff i see on the net is to go with scat but scat will cost u alittle more, for some reason there cranks are alittle harder/take more work to balance.

some of the positive things about scat is they have a better and more thorough hardening process on there cranks etc. but they are harder and will cost alittle more bc they are harder to balance, requires some actual work and perhaps some mallory.

my kit is a scat cast 9000 series crank, scat forged rods with 3/8" ARP cap screw bolts, clevitee main and rod bearings, SRP forged dish -16cc pistons (floating), SRP file fit moly sportsman rings. cost me 1200$ and then they nailed me with a 60$ slug of mallory for the crank during balancing. so far the kit is holding up great, and i should be in the neighborhood of 460-480hp NA and it spins to 6000without an issue. the kit should be good for 550 without a prob bc thats wat the scat 9000 series cranks are rated for. thats my weak point besides the 2bolt mains. if i were to throw in a forged crank and spay my mains i could handle 1000hp . i dnt like N02 but i gapped my rings for mild nitrous/boost.... so alittle more compression is lost but down the road i plan on throwing about 5-7lbs of boost at it.

just a word of advice, ive heard bad things about eagle when u start pushing them mostly being the cast cranks.

also N02 is more harmfull then boost. N02 is like a grenade in an engine and can quickly destroy a motor with some detonation. if anything boost is alittle easier on the motor.