I would like to share some experiences and result of changing to a new intake. I went from a lightly ported Superram, 52mm TB, Edelbrock Hiflow base and a lot of pipes

to an Edelbrock Victor E (EFI version) single plane intake, Edelbrock low profile elbow, a 90 degree bend and a 100mm LS style throttle body.


The result was I went from 120mph trap speed with the Superram setup to 117mph with the Edelbrock single plane.

Peak boost for both setups was about 12,5 psi @6000 rpms. I expected lower boost with the new intake but to my surprise, it looks like the new intake is as restrictive as the old one. I have had the impression that a singleplane is the “hot ticket” for big power but at least for me it does not seem to be the case.

There might be some gains by more precise tuning but doubt it would result in any major things.

 

Need alot more information

Track day conditions with previous best and new run result
Tune changes? I would have to believe there is a different tuning curve for each manifold
Manifold ported to heads?
Air intake temp differences? The low rise elbow may hurt things some. But the many bends in the previous setup has alot of losses too.

Same shift points and launch techniques?
What were the timeslip intervals?

 

Temp during the 120mph run with the SR intake at about 68F.this happened during 2013 and at another track. This last time it was a few degrees cooler.

Tune totally different but I think I got the AFR pretty good under control (about 12 for both intakes) and similar advance.

Was not been able to log IAT at the track but I later made a wot blast on third gear and max air temp reached 155F for the singel plane. Note I use meth injection (50/50 water/ethanol) and the iat sensor is downstream the injection nozzle. No data for the superram.

Shiftpoints and 60ft times pretty similar.

 

I would expect single plane to require alot more rpm, should have pushed power band upward.
1/8 mile mph change much?

 

1/8 mile speed about the same (in the order of 91 mph)

 

Superrams rock for the most part. And you just overcame their shortcomings buy adding boost. Should have left it alone.
Jmo.

 

Interesting results.....

I have just gotten my single plane together and it feels strong on it(the limited times I've kicked it) and surely seems to have more RPM potential, but this does worry me some.

I will get back to tuning an driving mine as soon as I get a new alternator and my 4" exhaust on.

I will say I have seen 20psi, but I am not sure of the RPM as it was hard to watch. I do know my AFR was rich, so I can lean it out some.

You should have more RPM potential for sure! What was your lean problem once teh car heated?

 

I don't mean to be a jerk but, been there, done that almost 14 years ago. I look at your old and then the new setup and feel nothing but constipated. I think you should see if you can make the bends in your piping between the blower and the throttle body a little tighter.

Flow numbers for the Edelbrock sucks for boosted apps, Accell or Brodix is better, just saying. Personally, I was running the Accell ProFlo on my car before I decided to change everything up and sold all my stuff.

 

What was the shift points?

as a street intake its hard to beat a superram....adding boost will make it perform great in the upper rpm area too.

I loved my old superram for its performance....but hated all the bolts so I went for a HSR instead.....

Now I will test a single plane setup hopefully I will be enable to test drive and do some tuning before the winter comes so I can tell if it is better or worse than the HSR....

 

NufNuff: Cylinder 2 and 7 injectors shut down when everything got hot and the engine went super lean (caused by bad injector wires/clips/solder joints).
GTA324: I shifts at around 6000rpms. Can’t go very much higher since I’m over speeding the blower at 5800 with my current pulley combination.
I will probably put on a larger pulley that give allow me to spin the engine to 6700rpms without exceeding the max speed (50000) of the blower and see what happens.
There is an old thread at camaroz28.com about a guy going from lt1 to a victor E EFI intake and gaining a lot without spinning it more than about 6000rpms (about 750rwhp at 14psi). This was on a 383lt1 and like NufNuffz28, he used an Ysi blower and I have a V2 S-trim so maybe the gains come when you push larger amount of air and still be in the blower efficiency zone (despite moderate IAT I guess I’m out of it when I spin it to and above max blower rpm).
I’m a little lost what to do now but I see a couple of different ways forward:
#1: go back to my old SR setup that run pretty ok- I would like to reach about 600rwhp so I will miss my target
#2: major porting of the Edelbrock intake- expensive
#3: put on my back up single plane intake (Motown)- well I have it already and the Edelbrock rails fit…
#4: get a bigger blower and keep the Edelbrock intake as it is-also expensive and maybe also need to go for 8 rib (have 6 now) pulleys.
#5: do nothing...

 

OK, I searched back and found that. I am glad you got it figured out! That's the problem I have sometimes(realizing these are just toys and can always be fixed!)

It looks like you are not reaching the potential of the single plane setup because you are not letting it breath and show it's potential. I searched for and found that thread where he went from an LT1 to a single plane intake and had some pretty good gains. I hope to do that as I was shifting my TPI BEFORE 6k! I do need to figure out how hard I am spinning my supercharger. I do not want to overspin it too much!

The RPM range on your Victor E is 4500-8500, with you shifting early you are not seeing the potential(and gains) that it can provide you. I bet just shifting at 7000(if you can with your blower) would net big improvements.

 

My last vortech car was a 355 with sportsman II heads, a comp 503 cam, and a stock singleplane intake with an adapter and 75mm throttle body. It was a V1 S-trim, and it went 120mph. I had the 3.33" pulley and was shifting at 6,000 RPM.

What are you running for cam, heads, etc ?

-- Joe

 

I suggested getting back on dyno to see what is going on. May see the power curve rise, may need to change pulleys to allow the rpm to happen

 

Get a Procharger and throw that ole craptech in the trash.

 

my concern is that boost is the same (despite spinning it to 6400rpms) as with the SR indicating similar (limited) flow. Guess only way to find out is to spin it higher.

381cui, AFR 210eliminators, 9,0 CR, cam: 224/234, 0,58/0,58, LSA 114

I will change the pulley to a 3,5" (current is 3")

 

Could also swap the motown on to see how good that one is. It likely will be similar but hard to say. You have some room to port the victor but a professional ported manifold isnt cheap

 

Followed by...;

Your not really saying much in terms of what was done after the swap. If your 1/8th is the same for both, yet somehow your losing on the top end with the same amount of boost pressure w/better flowing setup, then it sounds like a tuning issue. Where is your fueling after the 1/8th with the new setup? Where is your timing? What exactly was changed to compensate for the newer setup...?

Why would that be a concern? Boost would have been less at the same RPM had you simply swapped intakes only and maintained the same 52mm thottle body. You stepped up to a bigger throttle body with the new intake, so boost appears to be the same as the first setup, but it isn't, your actually flowing more air with the new setup at the same boost pressure. How can you not see that. You need to dial in your tune up top...

 

Something is wrong for sure. You are making less power than a much crappier setup.

I'm gonna take a stab at it and guess you are way rich. I realize your wideband says 12's, but, I think you are rich. I'd start subtracting fuel.


What does the advance curve look like ?

-- Joe

 

AFR was around 12 in both cases. Tried same timing curve with new setup (28@2000 decreasing to 19 @6000) as well as adding some degrees ending up at 24 degrees @ 6000 (knock indicated so I backed down to 21)

 

Your timing is way way off...

You wrote a few posts above...;

Total timing should be brought in by 3000-RPM, and your running AFR heads w/9.0 static compression, so it should be closer to 36 degrees @ 3000 if not more. Don't pull timing based on RPM, pull it based on boost pressure, 1 degree per pound of boost, and your only seeing 12.5 psi at 6000-RPM, so 24 degrees @ 6000 is correct when you pull 1 degree of timing from 36 total with 12 pounds of boost pressure. If your seeing knock, it is more than likely false knock, but if your worried it is in fact real knock, then add more fuel up top. I don't know what system you are using to control your fueling, but remember that with certain systems, when IAT's get too high, timing gets pulled automatically. How hot is the compressed air that your seeing at that boost pressure, what are your IAT's? What kind of fuel are you running? Trapping 117-mph tells us your only making about 400-FWHP @ 12.5 psi and 3400-lb race weight, which would then tell us that your only making 175-FWHP naturally aspirated because 12.5 psi will give you approximately 225 horsepower more based on your trap speed as well as knowing that 15-psi doubles your horsepower...

 

Disagree slightly with the above. My boosted experience with afr eliminators tends to agree with the OP that the timing is pretty close. Afr's typically rarely run over 32-34 deg at peak hp in na setups. With boost they get pretty picky, a very fast burn that needs little less timing than other setups. 24 at 12 psi isnt far off. My turbo car only ran 19-20 deg on pump gas. His setup shouldnt need much more and maybe even less than what he already has.
The curve doesnt seem to bad, got to find rpm it starts making boost and slowly ramp down as it comes in. Its more linear than turbo so the curve should look more linear as it decreases with each pound boost and rpm. You may beable to run more timing down lower rpms before boost is in and during low boost regions

 

12 pounds of boost pressure is essentially nothing in terms of worrying about detonation. I am running 34 degrees total at 3000-RPM with iron heads and the same compression, and pull 1 degree of timing per pound of boost pressure at wide open throttle, but that doesn't mean I don't see boost pressure before 3000-RPM at part throttle because I do, but it is meaningless. To not run that much timing with aluminum heads prior to boost pressure kicking in is defeating the purpose, especially with higher octane fuel. My buddy's GN runs 30-psi, and maintains 19 degrees of timing provided his IAT's stay ambient or lower...

 

Well, Im using a fully tunable EFI system with separate fuel and timing maps (MAP/advance and rpms on different axis) but its only fuel that is influenced by varying IAT (also see post #3).

During a wot run, the boost roughly looks like this:
3000rpm: 3psi
4000rpm: 6psi
5000rpm: 9psi
6000rpm: 12psi

After takeoff (2:nd to 4th gear) boost stays above 8psi (6speed manual)

 

You are making the dangerous assumption that all motors under same pressure act the same. I can tell you for a fact that is as incorrect a statement as possible and that you need to tune each combo differently. Your iron setup, your buddys gn, my setup, and his setup are all different.

Off boost run normal timing. As you get into boost all things change. 3 psi at 3000 is almost normal timing which can be 30-32 deg on some setups but sometimes less depending on heads cam intake etc.
6 psi by 4000 is getting into peak trq and highest chamber pressures so run a good bit less than na. 32-34 is normal na on afrs, so i'd try 6-8 deg out. Typical pump gases

 

You claim what I say is incorrect, and yet the post just before yours states that he is making 3-psi at 3000-RPM, which is what I figured already. So yes, total timing is to be brought in by 3000-RPM, give or take an RPM or two (mine comes in at 2800-RPM), and one degree pulled for every pound of boost thereafter. 3-psi at 36 degrees of timing is nothing with aluminum heads and 9.0:1 compression, and 12-psi at 24 degrees of timing is nothing in the same scenario. If he was higher than 10.1:1 compression obviously you want more timing pulled, but he clearly stated he is at 9.0:1 compression, so the effective compression ratio is where it needs to be in terms of desired timing at 12-psi...

 

If you say so. Good luck OP

 

Retarding timing under load leads to excessively high cylinder temps.

I've always locked my timing out after about 3,000 RPM then added a few degrees after peak torque.

-- Joe

 

So he can have higher discharge temps, flexing brackets designed by crackheads, and chewed up belts?

-- Joe

 

No...so he can make MORE POWER AND WIN THE BIG RACE.

-the race against our selves

 

I'm not going to get into a huge debate over tuning boosted applications, as we all have our own preferences, and we all feel what we know and what we do, works. I agree with Joe, too much timing retarding under load will cause excessive heat. 12 pounds of boost is nothing, perhaps it is something to those running cast setups and are worried they will crack a piston due to the added boost pressure, but that has nothing to do with 24 degrees being too much timing, that is just due to a weak rolling assembly. You want your total timing to reflect what it would be during natural aspiration just before you start getting into boost, then bring it back down (scale it) to the correct advance based on static compression, fuel type and boost pressure. Understand that 12-psi is not much pressure at 9.0:1 compression for 24 degrees advance, it might be too much for the rolling assembly because it can't keep up with the horsepower being made and it is weak from the getgo, but there is no way it will detonate at that pressure and advance unless you have a flaw in your fueling system, eg; a clogged injector. I based my build on my friend's Grand National, he runs 28-30psi, and is right at 19 degrees at 6000-RPM, 32 degrees total with iron heads just before boost comes in during the upper 2000-RPM's, and his turbo spools insanely fast...

 

Its just that i been there done that with afr heads on my combo and after just a rhs heads swap and cam, no other changes, same bottom end compression and turbos, the timing map is so drastically different you would have expected to see some other type of motor in there. Its unreal. I can run 22 deg over 20 psi on rhs heads. I couldnt run over 20 deg on 12-13 psi with old afr 195's.
telling you for a fact AFR chamber characteristics are NOT like most heads. And damn sure its not comparable to buick gn heads....

I agree timing is na up til the point of boost but to say 24 deg and 12 psi is "nothing" on a 9.0 to 1 motor is pure ignorance

 

It was some time since I calibrated my WB so I will remove the sensor and make a free air cal. I will borrow a second WB so I can monitor also the passenger side bank.

With respect to timing, my dyno operator/tuner heard slight knock at 21-22 degrees at 6000 rpms during last session with the SR intake so we backed down to 19 and the knock went away.

 

Followed by...;

He heard knock, or seen knock lol? My fully tunable EFI system can detect my downpipe banging into the floorboard and think it is knock too, and I can hear it clear as day, that does not mean I am detonating. Again, I will not argue anymore. If 19 degrees of timing floats your boat at 12-psi of boost pressure, more power to you, but don't expect to see much more mph simply by leaning it out...

Best of luck.

 

That guy has designed, manufactured and market a complete EFI system as well as built a four wheel drive dyno including software and been tuning cars since ten years

 

Who is that? made me curious

Hope you find the power, hopefully I have my single plane on in a few weeks.

Do you have stock hood? If not I have a badass HSR that you could try....

/N.

 

You have got PM

 

Which backs up my theory that you were running rich.

Leaner fuel mixtures need more advance. Rich fuel mixtures need less or get knock.

In the end you will probably be around 22-24 degrees, but every combo is different.

-- Joe

 

What afr do you recommend I should target?

 

Check plugs if possible. Recalibrate the wideband and use dyno wideband to verify. I wouldnt go any leaner than. 11.8-12.0 personally

 

I use my AFR gauge more of a tuning aid, for initial tune. When I'm tuning for power I usually start way rich and take fuel away until it stops going faster, then add a hair more fuel back in for safety.

-- Joe

 

Wimp

-- Joe

 

Lol lean is mean but for how long? Lol my old setup picked up a bunch from low 11's to high 11's air fuel. All around 12-15 psi. When i went from 11.8 to 12.0, it didnt pick up much more so i stopped.

 

people always told me i didnt have enough timing in my car either, but after dozens of pulls on the dyno i knew that 32 degrees is what it wanted. (cnc ported LT1 heads)