Don't misinterpret the title, its not like I'm claiming there's a conspiracy going on and that no one really needs it.

I really want to know how many (percentage) are using one, because as of today I REALLY want to get into DIY PROM, but the cost of the WBO2 sensor is making it impossible. I just can't spend that much on an O2 sensor. Add in the amount of necessary technical expertise and savvy to bring everything together and make it work, it's just impossible for me.

Hell, I'm trying my heart out and STILL can't get my freaking ALDL cable to work, even though all the signs say it should. I'd be doomed from the start to try and build a WBO2!

I mean really, I have to track down an O2 sensor from an old Civic that now apparently costs up tp $600, an obscure wiring harness for it, fab up a container, assemble the board, install another bung in my exhaust, get it all to work properly, find a way to assemble and display the data, and THEN translate it to tuning changes in the chip? I'm sorry, as much as I want to do this, it's just not gonna happen.

I'm absolutely cool with spending the $200 or less for the PROMinator when it comes out. I've got the ALDL cable which will work EVENTUALLY, I've got the laptop, I've got the patience to learn how to tune properly.

Everybody says the WBO2 is the only way to do it right, but MAN, the upfront cost is just too much. I'd rather take my chances with a custom mail-order chip.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to attack anybody or anything, its just that I'm ready to put together a monster engine combo but I know nothing's gonna work if I can't get it tuned! And that is REALLY depressing. Just venting a little frustration, hope you guys don't mind......

 

Well, it isn't quite that bad for the DIY-WB. The sensor price is around $200 and the harness is just wires. I don't know of anyone that actually used a Civic harness.

For a built unit the Innovate Motorsports unit is nice. These guys put the time and effort into making sure that it is a decent and accurate device. Check it out here:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com

At $350 with a sensor, it is hard to beat. There have been several lists that have put together group buys for a lower cost.

As far as absolutly requiring a WB to tune with. You can still do tuning without it. It is just that the WB makes it easier.

RBob.

 

You can't afford to be without one.
Long term it will pay for itself many times over.

Being able to solder is getting to be an almost have too. Cars aren't going to get any easier to work on. Being able to read a wiring diagrahm is just part of the game nowadays.

 

I guess the only thing that was really bothering me was the incredible price that the sensor itself seemed to cost. The last thread I read was some guy saying how lucky he was to get one for $188, because they just raised the price anywhere from $350 to $600, and that was in APRIL, I believe.

I did a lot of searching and didn't come up with anything like that link you just showed me, so I assumed that DIY was the only way to do it.

I'll highly consider getting that unit - it looks REALLY nice.

Are any of you actually using this one?

As for soldering and wiring diagrams, they don't bother me, I can handle them, it just seems that I don't have too good of luck getting it all to work together. This lack of confidence probably stems from my ALDL converter experience. I bought the kit to save money and put it together myself. All the tests say it should work, and even the programs say they can see it, but I still can't hook to the ECM, which is really frustrating.

Anyways, thanks for the link.

 

The sensors are now available at AutoZombie for $170.

BW

 

i have a proffesional quality unit that has a built in afr display etc etc. its really nice. but considering the cost of the lh1h1 sensor im gonna be buying a unit similar to the innovative motorsports units that uses the new lsu4 bosch sensor at $30 each there a huge savving when something bad happens ie road debris etc.

 

I've been using the DIY-WB courtesy of a friend who assembled the unit for me. I was lucky enough to borrow a sensor for awhile from another friend. I just ordered my own sensor last week for a total of $183.73 shipped to my door ... from AZ. IMHO - you can do a lot of tuning without a wideband. However - for things like WOT, AE, etc. where the normal O2 just isn't up-to-snuff ... it is an absolutely invaluable tool.

Tim

 

Where would one find a list for a group buy?

 

both wideband and exhaust temp..

 

Both Team Camaro & Team Chevelle had group buys, the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club had one.

Doing a search this one appears to still be open (upper center of page in the news column):

http://www.mercedimports.org/news.asp

Innovative Motorsports now has a yahoo list:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/InnovateLM1/

And an un-offical informational site:

http://lagunamiata.home.att.net/lm-1.htm

RBob.

 

I have a question about this. It sounds like something I really need to use but my stainless headers only have one hole for an O2 sensor. I have to run an O2 for the ECM, so can the ECM wire up to this wideband sensor and work right?
My point is that I'd rather not add another hole which would be a bit difficult in stainless metal.

 

The typical SS used in exhaust systems is weldable by a decent muffler g, er, person.
And if it's just the headers, you can put it further back, with just a slight lag in response as the penalty.

It's just as well to use it seperately, so that you don't have to run it full time. If your on a budget, it's just a few minutes work to do and undo it.

And if you get one remember to tune for what makes the engine happy, not to tune to a particular AFR.

 

i would however say that if your tunning with a Wideband to not really listen to everything it spits out. sometime you have to feel the engine as it stumbles and the wb o2 wont catch it or you wont be able to watch it happen. the wb o2 is a great tool. but over dependce on it can cuase much grief.

 

That's funny... I always found the diy wb to catch everything the engine did. When it stumbles it shows up on the wideband clear as day. I however am not looking just at a display, I'm using actual datalogging.

 

Im Not Using The WB Sensor Yet But I Am Sure Having A Great Time With My Laptop And My Serial Cable I Built. I Noticed You Said That You Couldn't Get Your Cable To Work. I May Have An Answer For You. I Built The MAX232 Circuit Shown At Craig Moates Web Site And I Could NOT Get It To Connect Properly No Matter How I Tried. Seing As I Have A New Dell Laptop, I Am An Electronic Technician Of Almost 30 Years And Am Quite Comfortable With Computers, I Couldn't Understand Why. But I Fell Onto An Important Piece Of Info In This Regard. Many Computers Will Require That You Tie Pin 6 (DSR) Of The RS232 Serial Port To + 5 Volts With A 4.7k resistor. Without Explaining In Detail What It Does, Just Try It. It Worked Instantly For Me. DSR Means Data Set Ready And Tells The Computer That Yes Data Is REady For You To Accept. Good Luck!!

 

So far I'm in the same boat as you, ie the WB does show what's going on. The only fly in the ointment is when the display has a too slow of sampling rate, which is the display, not the sensor/controller

 

As i was saying. sometime you simply have to feel the lean tip in. sometimes its so minute that you cant see the change. sometimes you just have ot go with your gut. also who's to say 10:1 for ae is the best it might be 11:1 or blah blah blah. the WB-O2 is a tool. i use it for fuel trim. everything else i do by feel. tip in etc. then i check out the 60ft etc. if you rely on the wb02 for AE functions your going to chase your *** in circles. Hence what a senoir memeber hear once posted.

well that becuase your not listening to what your sense's tell you. its good to review your AE to see if you can pull a bit of fuel to keep the CAT healthy but on a non emisions vehicle tune till it hooks;luanch, and feels good.

thats my 2 cents

 

Not trying to get on your case funstick but again I have to disagree. When you rely on your "senses" and 60' times and "hook" you're opening up a WHOLE new can of worms. I can say with 100% confidence that with a v8 and the nature of the human foots inaccuracy.... hook tells you nothing of AE. I know cars that hook best when they aren't making peak torque at that given rpm. This makes the car a LOT better with smaller tires but when they're on the highway it's another story completely. All of a sudden AE becomes a whole another animal.
What makes you chase your *** is being a perfectionist. Grumpy and I fall into this category. He's FAR more experienced with the hands on. Oh, and don't listen to your butt dyno, you'll end up rich and too much timing! Some people have the knack of tuning from feel. I'm getting there but I can tell you now, if you haven't spent years tuning a vehicle then there is no replacement for the wideband. It'll get your AE so close you'll wonder how carb guys ever get as close as they do. It's a fine line and not using a wideband for AE is a waste of time AND money (long run).
Once you've figured out the wideband o2 placement, your engines displacement, and a few other variables you'll soon pickup on the lag time it takes for lean tip in to display on the wideband. This is where data logging takes the cake, no replacement, even real-time tuning.
I will however say that real-time tuning is golden! Really must be sweet being able to tune AE without having to ever kill the ignition.

 

im in total disagreement with gumpy on aot of thing. fact is ive got a 18 second car stock running low 13's ( soon to be 12's if i can get the stupid clutch to hold) on 12 psi of boost. still runnig stock internals with 178k on the odometer. when he can pull that off without luanching stuff into the oil pan then ill agree that hes the best tunner out there. its got nothing to do with perfection. its got everything to do with REAL WORLD driving. looking at a WB is not gonna make your AE perfect. thats great youve got a AFR for a AE event But how do you determine what the engine and driveline combo need for peak efficiency. or are you just trying to keep the engine from leaning out ? **** i can see that ina basic NB o2 A/F guage from autometer. transpost delay plewy. your thinking way to much. the best way to figure out AE is the way ive been doing. get a dammned vidoe camera and luanch the car from a standing idle. then youve got the intial value fixed when the car just brakes loose. then you go in and set the conditioning values for various load and RPM to keep the throttle snappy. its got nothing to due with the WB. the WB is a tool. dont regard it with so much love and lust. use the tools when needed. to diagnose problems.

this is the problem with the Whole DIY scene. to much conjecture. just tune the damn car. the WB is a tool. lets practice saying this a few times.

THE WB IS A TOOL
THE WB IS A TOOL

but heh what do i i knwo about AE. i only wrote posts when nobody else dared. LOL

 

And judging by what you've said so far in this thread still often need correcting.

Some tools can be used for tuning as well as diagnostics.
Not everyone has access to a video camera for tuning. Most guys don't seem to have money to afford a WB which can be use in every phase of tuning, where as what you mention is limited to developing launches, and then there are folks that have no desire to go drag racing.

Posting isn't about daring, generally it's about helping others, bragging stuff is just an ego thing. 13s, 11s, 9s, to some folks they are the end all to everything, to others, it's OK, so what else is new.

If you want to just ignore the WB on some ocassions, fine, thou there are some of us who try to understand what's actually going on.

Do folks need a WB or ECM Bench to go fast?, no. But, it's easier on the car to do some testing on the bench then risking the engine to see what say the DC is 5,000 at WOT. Sure beats finding out that the ecm is at 95%, and the injectors are running erratic.

 

Well I have the stainless y-pipe that goes with the headers too. If I get that innovatemotorsports doesn't it use just a cheapie O2 ? I would really just like to run one O2 in my pre-existing hole, so my question still is can I do this and have the WB also connected to my ECM as well? I hope so!

If so I'm going to order one as soon as I get an answer. I'll also see what the company says too.

 

Update

I just called the company and they told me that I could use the analog output to go to my ECM! I hope that works out because I just ordered one.