DIY PROM Do It Yourself PROM chip burning help. No PROM begging. No PROMs for sale. No commercial exchange. Not a referral service.

Something Important

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Jul 10, 2006 | 09:17 PM
  #1  
Grumpy's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 7,554
Likes: 1
From: In reality
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Something Important

If you're into understanding VE, and how high of VE is possible, on a mild turbo combo, read this. Page 2 with the chart is just amazing.

TurboBuicks.com - VE Trivia
Reply
Old Jul 10, 2006 | 10:33 PM
  #2  
KurtAKX's Avatar
Member
 
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: West Bloomfield, MI
Car: Pontiac
Engine: L03
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.08 / Drums
It follows that if you change nothing mechanically,but increase the density of the incoming air to over 1.5 times its original density ([10+14.7]/14.7) that the effective VE would be proportionally higher. What is the trivia?

If you had a 100% VE engine and fed it 14.7 PSI (1 atm) of boost its effective VE would be 200% Imagine what the numbers must have been like for the old turboed indy champ cars that ran what, 45psi of boost? Or for that matter the compound turboed diesels running 80psi and higher of boost.
Reply
Old Jul 10, 2006 | 11:51 PM
  #3  
RednGold86Z's Avatar
Supreme Member
20 Year Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 1
From: Corona
Car: 92 Form, 91 Z28, 89 GTA, 86 Z28
Engine: BP383 vortech, BP383, 5.7 TPI, LG4
Transmission: 4L60e, 700R4, 700R4..
Axle/Gears: 3.27, 2.73
I prefer to calculate/think of VE based on Manifold Pressure, i.e. at 150 kPa MAP, and 150 kPa trapped fresh charge (of a cylinder at BDC, and valves closed) = 100% VE when comparing engines of different aspirations. That'll show more how 'efficient' the intake+heads+cam+exhaust (+blower) is.
Otherwise it's really no surprise that a blower displaces more than 100% of engine displacement. But if you use my method, you may see that a change in boost might not be as effective as you might predict, or the opposite.
Reply
Old Jul 11, 2006 | 05:59 AM
  #4  
Grumpy's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 7,554
Likes: 1
From: In reality
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Originally Posted by KurtAKX
It follows that if you change nothing mechanically,but increase the density of the incoming air to over 1.5 times its original density ([10+14.7]/14.7) that the effective VE would be proportionally higher. What is the trivia?

If you had a 100% VE engine and fed it 14.7 PSI (1 atm) of boost its effective VE would be 200% Imagine what the numbers must have been like for the old turboed indy champ cars that ran what, 45psi of boost? Or for that matter the compound turboed diesels running 80psi and higher of boost.
Look closer....
What trivia, are you talking about?.

Pulling tractors are well over 250 PSI of boost.
----------
Originally Posted by RednGold86Z
I prefer to calculate/think of VE based on Manifold Pressure, i.e. at 150 kPa MAP, and 150 kPa trapped fresh charge (of a cylinder at BDC, and valves closed) = 100% VE when comparing engines of different aspirations. That'll show more how 'efficient' the intake+heads+cam+exhaust (+blower) is.
Otherwise it's really no surprise that a blower displaces more than 100% of engine displacement. But if you use my method, you may see that a change in boost might not be as effective as you might predict, or the opposite.
It's not about boost, it's about cylinder filling, to get 160% on a production type engine is amazing to me. Not to mention looking at what it (VE) does, vs RPM.

Last edited by Grumpy; Jul 11, 2006 at 06:02 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply
Old Jul 11, 2006 | 05:21 PM
  #5  
KurtAKX's Avatar
Member
 
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: West Bloomfield, MI
Car: Pontiac
Engine: L03
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.08 / Drums
Originally Posted by Grumpy
Pulling tractors are well over 250 PSI of boost.
----------


It's not about boost, it's about cylinder filling, to get 160% on a production type engine is amazing to me. Not to mention looking at what it (VE) does, vs RPM.
If you think 160% is good for a production engine, look at what the Mitsu Evo can do.

Amen on the cylinder filling thing. An engine's output makes it pretty obvious what kind of throughput it has. For a 3.8 to make 220-240 HP, (about the same as a 5.7 of equivalent era) it would make sense that it was putting roughly as much air and fuel through as the 5.7...5.7/3.8 is roughly 160% the size.

Holy **** I had heard of like 150 PSI of boost, 250 is nuts!
Reply
Old Jul 11, 2006 | 07:41 PM
  #6  
Grumpy's Avatar
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
 
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 7,554
Likes: 1
From: In reality
Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Originally Posted by KurtAKX
If you think 160% is good for a production engine, look at what the Mitsu Evo can do.

Holy **** I had heard of like 150 PSI of boost, 250 is nuts!
Got some numbers?.

And to think that's just what they'll admit to....
The standing joke at the buick Nationals, is *Yep, running 22 PSI*.....
Reply
Old Jul 11, 2006 | 10:37 PM
  #7  
KurtAKX's Avatar
Member
 
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: West Bloomfield, MI
Car: Pontiac
Engine: L03
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.08 / Drums
What Mitsubishi Says:

Lancer Evolution lives up to the heritage. It now generates an incomprehensible 286 horsepower from only two-liters of displacement; this is the highest power-to-displacement ratio of any production inline four-cylinder engine in the world, at 146 horsepower produced per liter of displacement.

Roughly speaking, at 286 HP and .5 BSFC, thats 143 LB/HR of fuel. If you run 12:1 at this output level thats 28.6 LB/MIN of air. That is approximately 217 G/S of air going through an engine that, naturally aspirated and at 100% VE would be moving 6.5 liters of air per minute at the 6500 RPM its peak power is obtained at. 6.5 liters per minute of air at STP equates to about 129 G/S through the engine. This is easily 170% effective VE. 10% difference between 160 and 170 may not sound like a lot to some, but that is a huge difference, on the street and at the track. Imagine the effort a 10% increase in VE would take on a NA engine. On two similar forced induction engines, however, I will concede that effective VE is directly proportional to air density aka boost.

*edited to add that I don't even really like Mitsubishis, except their TVs*
Reply
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
ZZ3Astro
Power Adders
1045
Aug 13, 2019 12:57 AM
Jorlain
Tech / General Engine
6
Oct 8, 2015 01:57 AM
InfinityShade
Body
3
Sep 5, 2015 06:38 PM
Ozz1967
Transmissions and Drivetrain
4
Aug 16, 2015 10:23 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:51 PM.