robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I have a pretty good idea what you guys are talking about with the whole smoothing thing but how do I calculate it exactly? One thing I noticed with playing with my fuel pressure is that I believe 15 psi is the max for the pump I have and remain steady. Any thing over that and it flucuates quite badly. So I backed it down to 15 and it's seemed to sit pretty still. I also was looking over my VE tables and in most places the EBL seems to be adding fuel rather than taking it away. The car seems like the more it's learning the fatter it runs. I'm guessing this is an AE issue.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I think the hose between the pump & pickup in the tank is split. I've been wondering how you were getting away with a 255 lph pump on a small TBI unit at a low pressure setting. Most of the time a 255 lph pump pushes the fuel pressure well above 20 psi. This is because the stock TBI unit and FPR can't return enough fuel.

The TBI/FPR unit is too much of a restriction for a 255 lph pump running up against 15 psi of back pressure. An increase in back pressure (turning up the fuel pressure to say 30 psi) reduces the flow from the pump. Which can then pass through the TBI unit.

With your fuel pressure increasing as more fuel is used. My bet is that the connecting hose is split. Both the fuel flow/pressure issue and the hose needs to be addressed.

Can either crank up the fuel pressure to reduce the flow, or put a smaller pump in (190lph) while replacing the connecting hose (which needs to be done either way).

Note that with the fluctuating fuel pressure the tune will never come into line.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I used the two data logs as that was what I had. This was just an example to show the level of corrections. Once the fuel delivery issue is fixed can just do shorter drives, or pull over into a parking lot and stop the learn, flash, start another learn, and continue driving.

Once the BLMs are closer, say +- 10 from 128 (118 - 138), can then look at the WOT fuel requirements. Adjust the fuel pressure & BPC to get the injector DC% under 85. Then lock out closed loop and do VE Learns via the WB.

As you do this narrow the CTS learn window to values that are more in line with the proper operating range of the engine. Once the WB learn corrections are low, then switch back to closed loop with BLM based learning. Do a nice long varied drive covering as much of the VE table as possible. Flash that in and see how it is.

RBob.

thomas1976

You just found out whats wrong, I couldent really understand all these issues with a stock engine. I can flash the stock bin and the EBL runs my set up ok (LT1 cam, 46mm TB).
The point will not really be how to make it run correctly, but how to squeese the most power out of the set up.

AE will only need some little tuches once your tuning for the last hp's.

Beware, the springs that come with your AFPR dont match the sellers by much.

Smooth 86.98 + (87.56 - 86.98) / 2 = 87.27

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Thomas howdid you come up with that number? when I add it up it comes out to 45.25? so take the top number and minus it from the bottom number then add the bottom to that then divide it by 2? I hope I'm reading that right. If so I'm going to be going crazy on my VE tables tonight. How can I set that up in tunerpro rt?

Rbob to be honest I don't have the 255 in yet, when I wrote that in my sig I was going to do that that afternoon but I got sidetracked,lol If I keep the pressure at 15psi it's stays pretty steady so I believe I'm still running on the stock pump. I've actually been thinking about just getting a TPI pump from the local ACdelco dealer here in town. I think that would suffiently suffice for the time being. One more thing, the car developed a MEAN surge during light throttle. I mean it will drastically jump from 13.2 to almost 19.7 on the WB and it's very noticable but if I give it a touch more throttle it clears up. What I don't understand is that I have my Asynch transitions zeroed out. What else would cause this?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Does the fuel pressure vary when you change the throttle position? This is what you stated earlier. If so then you can not tune the setup.

The fuel pressure, and by virtue of it, fuel delivery has to be dead on. Otherwise you will be chasing your tail on the tune.

I can not put enough emphasis on this. BTHT (been there, had that), too many times, no fun going in circles. It is the reason that the WUD supports fuel pressure senders.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Well tonight I came to the conclusion that I'm a dipshit. I borrowed a timing light from a friend of mine because I wanted to make sure were my timing honestly was and lo and behold it's at dead nuts Zero.. DUH. One question I have is before I adjusted my fuel pressure it would hold nice and steady with any change with the throttle but when I messed with it the other day is when it started fluctuating. I did tighten it all the way to see if a could get 20psi and it bottomed out. Could there be any possibilty that I might have damaged the diaphram in the regulator that could be causing the flux? Also, where would be the best place for me to find a VRFPR?

thomas1976

Smooth 86.98 + (87.56 - 86.98) / 2 = 86.98 + 0.58 / 2 = 86.98 + 0,29 = 87.27
(prioritys may be different in some places)

VE table just klick on the low cell and tipe your calculated # in.

My statement about the spring is 100% correct, if you need 20psi and a little more "top down solution" spring is the way to go.

If the diagram is shot you should notice fuel leak.

If using up to 18 psi FP VAFPR isent really necessary. I will be using turbocity's VAFPR this summer, it mounts at the stock location.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Isn't there a way to use the toolbox in tunerpro rt to do the same calculations? also, how many cells do I do at a time? just 3 and work my way down then over? I see in the preferences that I can change how much the tables smooth over from 1-12, what would be the best way to do that?How do I change my AE so it's not coming in so much? From some of my old tables (i'm starting over with a modified "16" BIN.) it seems to keep adding more and more fuel. Not so much that it blows smoke but enough to were the engine feels REALLY down on power.

thomas1976

No. As many as you whant. Smoothing # is for VE learn. I bett you dont need to change your AE for a wile.

Dont waste your time, fix the unstable fuel pressure issue, flash the stock bin, enjoy the car and start playn with SA and VE.

If your pump dosent suport higher FP just take some degrees of SA out in the high KPA rpm were it knocks, untill you can take care of that issue.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Well I did start over and I set my fuel pressure at a constant 13psi, it doesn't budge from there so I think i'm safe for the time being. One thing I did notice is the I'm getting qutie abit of knock at idle around 600 rpms. anywhere else is fine. I wonder if it's picking up the alternator, it likes to make a weird rattling/whistling sound on occasion and it goes away when i apply the throttle. I'm still getting a pretty nasty surge during light throttle and I have no idea on how to cure it.Here's a copy of my latest BIN. Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong? as far as the screenshot thing I can't get it to work. that sucks. i'd like to show you guys my graphs.

thomas1976

Ill check it out during the weekend, you could try stock 11.5-12.5 psi FP and use the stock bin, no need to change anithing. If still not running right you know its not the tune.
I did fix the FP gauge under the wiper and did some WOT to test FP under load.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I took it for another run before work and the car feels alittle better since I've started over. It definatley seems to run alittle leaner now since I lowered the psi back to 13. I plan on getting the same fuel pump as Thomas as well as the TDS spring this week. I can get the pump for 60 bucks through my old work. Here's a datalog and the BIN I flashed from this morning.

thomas1976

Dont know why but cant open any of the 3 bins or datalog's you posted with WUD and tunerpr.

Also tried playback your 13 and 14 datalog's again, WB AFR is not showing up.

May be my little laptop I use for tunin.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Well I thought I should give you guys an update on how it's been going. I recently recieved the latest updates for the WUD and the new documentation from Rbob and I'm having a few issues.

Per the new DOC that I got from Rbob it says that the best way to VE learn with a WB is to set the BLM Max/Min BLM at key on (init) to 128-128 and turn off closed loop by setting the Closed loop CTS threshold very high . Now that I have done this the car DEFINATELY runs fatter during warmup and cruising (12.3-14.0) And I have done quite a few ve learns doing this. It's starting to run alittle better but not quite much. When it warms up at cruise it will some times go quite lean for my tastes (16.7-17.5) around 50mph. it's not an all the time thing but it pops up quite a bit.

I also noticed that before I started running in open loop only my graphs were quite smooth but now they seem to be all over the place. I bumped up the fuel pressure back to an extremely steady 14psi (after about 2 hours of playing with it) and set the BPC vs VAC to 128 . One thing I can't figure out is that the car has developed a really NASTY surge at idle but when I put the car in gear it goes away. My IAC counts seem to be stuck at 0 at idle but go up when I drive around. Here's a copy of my latest datalog and BIN, Can someone take a look to see what could be done?

thomas1976

Cant open the files. You could list all the modifications you did to the bin.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Hmmmm........ The only things I have changed are setting the Closed loop Cts threshold to 151.00 celsius. Set my BLM Max/Min BLM (init) to 128-128.
Set the BPC vs VAC to 128 for my 14psi. adjusted the AE-map PW and AE TPS pw accordingly to the new fuel pressure. The only other changes I've made were the VE learns. So I have no idea where the surging is coming from.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

It is said that surging is often lean. when I first started tuning my modified engine I too experienced surging at idle. I am not saying this will help you but what I did and what helped is:

1. Idle synch(asynch disabled).
2. added fuel(10%?) in the cells it was idleing in or moving around. I idle now at 37map at 825 rpms. So 30-40 map and 750-950 rpm cells I added fuel.
3. I also experimented with idle SA. I added one degree at a time and ended up with SA 24 for idle.
4. I idle zero steps IAC.

those areas.changes helped. Later I added a VAFPR which allows me to idle at at 14.5 FP and that helped as well.

As far as surge at cruise speed fortunately I did not have that issue. If I did I would most likely add fuel to VE tables and or monitor my SA at cruise. I think I cruise at 32SA. If I had that issue I might + - 2 deg SA to see effect.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

well since i've been running in open loop only I don't have a single problem the with surge during cruising, so that's ok. I did noticed one thing the other night. I was going out to a friends house and I thought I'd do a good WOT pull to see how the car felt. It felt good but I did notice it would surge like it would pull good and hard but almost like it was slipping. Kind of a back and forth surge is the best way I can described it and it help a constant 11.5 on the WB. I haven't tuned much for WOT I just wanted to get a feel for it. I know there is more to be done in that area.

thomas1976

Again in this situation there is nothing to be tuned other then performance, if the engine doesent run right with the stock ebl bin, then something is not working right. Will be more diagnosis then tuning.

14psi FP
BPC vs VAC = 127
AE-MAP-PW = X 0.96
AE-TPS-PW = X 0.96

Engine may not run as smooth as stock but should be ok to drive.

After setting this, tape the FP gauge to the winshield, do a few WOT and make sure the FP needle doesent move, best is to have a passenger staring at the gauge.

If FP stays steady, VE learn.

Plug CCP on the TB
EGR-CTS enable treshold = 150
HIWY-MIN MPH = 254
Of course what The Creator says for WB VE learn.

If still not running right I would plug in the stock ECM and see how it runs.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

14psi FP
BPC vs VAC = 127
AE-MAP-PW = X 0.96
AE-TPS-PW = X 0.96
OK this is done

The fuel pressure is staying at a steady 14psi to start, this weekend I'll get the same pump as you have for pretty cheap through a dealer hookup I have, so I will be able to sustain a higher fuel pressure.


"Plug CCP on the TB"
the CCP has been taken out LONG ago. So it's plugged up regardless.

"EGR-CTS enable treshold = 150"
Did this in the beginning

"HIWY-MIN MPH = 254"
I set mine to 150 but no big differance at this moment

"Of course what The Creator says for WB VE learn."
Believe me my laptop has been literally glued to my hip for the last few weeks, everywhere I go there is a VE learn going on.

From what I have noticed today is that with the surging it only comes on after the car has been driven for a bit. It starts off mild then progressively gets worse the longer the car sits, but the second the car goes into gear it goes away. I think it might be from the EBL is bouncing from the differant cells and it's trying to compensate. Also, I've been keeping a close eye on my VE learns and I've noticed as well that it's not changing as much in the 25-55 map cells but it seems to be a back and forth thing with the 20 map cells. It will take away 12 1000-2200 rpm range then the next VE learn it adds it right back. So ofcourse thats getting alittle aggravating,lol

thomas1976

Ewerithing sounds fine except 20 cells back anf forth is alot. Could an exhaust leak be the cause?

I would Try NB VE learn, to see what happens.

For surge, let it learn in park, wery slow gradually increase trottle up to 2200rpm then decrease the same way a few times. Then look at the VE table and fill in the lower 600rpm down walues with the lowest rpm VE learned #.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Are all the unused ports on the TB capped? I found one last week where the nipple I used was cracked and needed replacement. And of course I had a leak a year ago as one header flanfge someone forgot to put lock washers on and it happened to be NB02 side and that caused issues adding fuel in learns.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Yes all of my unused ports are capped, the only one being used is the PCV and ofcourse the MAP. To be honest I think I do have an exhaust leak some where. I know when I got my cat back put on around where the Ypipe meets the int. pipe it is black around the edges like it's not sealing properly. I'll address that this weekend.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I think I might found my issues with the 20 map cell problem. I was watching my VE learn on my way to work and I saw that it changes normally through regular drive except when it goes into Decell. Once the WB hit the lean 25.5 it adds 12 from 1000-2200rpm but when I drive it tries to learn regularly. That seems to be the hangup. Also, with the surging at idle the engine seems to surge along with the NB output. If it reads high it goes rich and once it goes low it jumps way lean. I read some where that adjusting the prop gains could remedy both of these issues. Would that be correct and how do I do that?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Check the data log to see if the ECM is switching between sync and async injection mode.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I have my Async transition hi and lo set to 0. Would it still change?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

That will disable async injection mode. Which is what you want. For surging, need to take a look at the data log at those points. If you are in open loop then it isn't prop gains. During open loop they are disabled.

Taking a look at your redo28.ebl log, at 00:04:06 the engine goes dead lean. This is an area where a little more VE should be added. It also may be that the injector PW is on the edge. This is where the injectors stop opening due to the PW being too short.

If this is the case then a small increase in the injector offset will help. Since this is during decel running the AFR a tad richer can also help. Currently it is commanded at 14.4, could lower this to 14.0 for better control of the combustion. During decel the density of the air & fuel in the cylinder is very low.

So a little extra fuel helps prevent misfiring, and/or a lean surging engine.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

how much should I decrease the offset? When I see it in the INJ injector correction offset table I don't understand what you mean. And what would be a good way to increase the PW? Also, how would I run out of PW when my foot is off the pedal?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

At idle with larger FP or larger injectors or both the PW to achieve 14.3/1 will need to be very small. The ECU will accomodate this by turning the injector effectively off as RBob stated. I guess mechanically it cannot do a PW under 1.5 msec or so. Likewise is limited on other end as well(full on). I idle OL and am in OL under 10 mph I recall. My PW at idle is 1.9 and I assume deacellerating at 0% TPS the same. 80 lbs with 14 lbs FP(VAFPR used). Dont have my offset here at office but I would try .90 or 10% less.

As is stated often on deaccell low map it shears all the fuel off the manifold walls and you are dry. Walls need to remain wet. worst case sceario for me is deacell from 40 mph to a rolling stop then turn and get on gas only to see lean at 22/1 on WB and no fuel unless I invoke AE and often that is too late.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Thats the same problem I've been having. It seems that when I brake hard it will goes way lean but if I let the car slow down on it's own it's alot better.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It is the opposite. Need to increase the injector offset compensation. And the injector PW is too short, not too long.

While data logging tap the space bar when the engine goes lean. That will put markers in the data stream so that you can find those areas easily. Then look at that area to see what is going on.

At 00:04:06 time frame the injector PW is in the .8 msec range.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

How do increase the compensation?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Maybe RBob can comment? I added about 10% more VE fueling in 20MAP and 25 MAP at all RPMs after extensive Learns.. Iissue is that VE Learn I believe pulled out the fuel as I am in CL over 10 MPH. Now as I stated every day I run same route off Xway at 55 mph come to stop sign if red I stop and stall saver prevents engine from stall. If I have green I slow down look and turn a sweeping left. Pegs lean at 22/1 on WB. I am not in AE per WU but I can certainly force it! Now what I did is add fuel with throttle follower IAC routine. I dont see many posts on that but when IAC opens, and I believe it does from closed throttle to gradual opening, fuel is also added to compensate. Look at "stock" EBL.bin. Not sure what was there, I guess 100-300 msec. I am at 1100 now. Seems to help. Heck I wonder if I should add another 200? RBob am I wrong on this? Keep in mind my venturi velocity crashes during that episode. I think my intake tract(TB to intake valve) is a bit larger than others have here.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I thought I'd post up an update since it's been awhile. I finally installed the new pump last weekend and the car feels ait snappier with it so for that I am pleased. I'll be bumping up the pressure to 18psi today to see if I can get me DC in line. Here's a small snippet of where my injectors where at when I punched it.


00:18:33 3600 90 84 91 7 92 75 172 88 156 925 171 17 4175 11.353 0.00 136 N Y N N Y N N N N N N N N 1 128 128 129 115 0.0 12.8 11.9 14.9 0.519 26.6 0.458 4.684
The DC jumped all the way to 136!! so yeah bumping up the pressure is a must.
Also, the car as of now seems to be running quite rich during PE. It will blow black smoke like a beast. I see that the commanded AFR during PE is 12.8 but I am running in open loop and it sits at a fairly steady 10.6-10.5. HOw do I pull some of the fuel out? Luckily it's not producing any knock so thats a plus. I'll try to post the datalog and bin fle again so you guys can read it.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

As for being so rich, have you adjusted the BPC vs VAC table to account for the increased fuel pressure?

When in open loop (such as PE mode), adjust the VE table to produce the same WB reported AFR as the commanded AFR. Note that you wil also need to reduce the AE MAP & TPS PW tables by the ratio of increased fuel flow. The last column in the snippet shows AE added fuel of 4.684 msec.

At 3600 RPM the engine probably doesn't need that much fuel.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

I haven't bumped the pressure yet but I plan on it tonight when it cools down abit. So I haven't changed anything yet.

"When in open loop (such as PE mode), adjust the VE table to produce the same WB reported AFR as the commanded AFR."

How would I go about doing this?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Look at the .EBL log dump and compare the commanded AFR to the WB AFR, change the VE table at those RPM/KPa points until they match. Lower VE when too rich, increase VE when too lean.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

could you show an example? I'm alittle confused.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Here is a 1 second area from your latest log. I reduced the number of columns to help show the important data for this.

Note the RPM and MAP columns. They define the area of the VE table than is being used. The VE% column shows the data from the VE table.

The AFR column is the commanded AFR that the ECM is using for the injector PW calculation.

The WB column is what the installed WB is reporting for the actual AFR.

The ECM is in open loop mode with the BLMs at 128. In open loop they won't move. And may be ignored.

The commanded AFR is 12.6:1, the WB reported AFR is 10.6:1. To correct this the VE table at the shown RPM and MAP need to be reduced.

The RPM ranges from 4100 to 4300 RPM (the vehicle is accelerating). The MAP is at 83 - 85 KPa. This area of the VE table needs to be reduced from the current 91 - 93%.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

So I should bring the VE table down in tht area to 83-85?

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

ok I hand smoothed the 4000-4400 rpm 90 map area down from 95-94 to around 85-84 range. Do you think that will help? I'd show you a pic of the graph but I still can't get that little trick you guys do to work,lol

RBob

iTrader: (1)

That will help. However, in the data log the load is shown at 83 - 85 KPa (MAP). So this area is what was being used at the time of the sample I posted. That area of the VE table also needs to be lowered. Also note the RPM in the data log.

The RPM and MAP value from the data log shows which cell(s) is being used in the VE table.


AE: note that area are 00:18:33 when you first start rolling into the throttle. The AE is excessive driving the AFR down to 10.6:1 (I think that is the WB lower limit).

The log show delta TPS as high as 15%, and delta MAP as high as 26 KPa. With both contributing quite a bit of AE fuel. With the engine at 3500 - 3600 RPM the engien isn't going to require much AE. The manifold velocity is already starting to build.

I did check another area of lighter throttle movement and it showed a slight richness to AE. For a case such as this I would reduce both the AE MAP & TPS PW tables in the areas shown and above. Probably by a good 10%.

Then reduce the AE RPM compensation at 2800 RPM and above. Note that you can put negative values in this table.

Take a look at the F_1001 AE calibration. Set it up as a compare file and flip between it and yours.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

So I may be getting a bit to much AE. I figured as much but wasn't to sure on how to correct this. The F_1001 is in the EBL disc right? Also, when I reduce the AE Tables can I just use the Toolbox and reduce everything by .10 or 1.10? Not to sure about that.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Using the tool box is an easy way for across the board table changes. See the Intro to Tuning guide (on the D-EFI site) for how to use the toolbox for this and other items.

The EBL_F_1001.BIN file should be on the CD. Although some of the early shipments didn't get the bins. If not just let me know.

RBob.

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Could I just do a copy of those tables form the mentioned BIN to see how they work?

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

Well I did what you said and I hand smoothed the VE tables down to the recommended 83-85 percent. I also lower the AE TPS and AE MAP PW tables by .10 percent as well as the AE RPM multiplier 2800 and above .10 percent with shows it to be -.10 percent from the previous 0.00 percent. Did I do this right?

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

After the changes I made in the BIN I took the car out for a couple of short learns to see how everything took. Keep in mind that this is the first time out since the pump change. After a couple learns to see how things were going I decided to give her a standing WOT blast to see what came of it. The car felt pretty good and the AE changes I made seemed to help the power a bit but I got a TON of knock in the 3600-4400 rpm 90 map range. I did take into account that my temp was around 187 degrees and the IAT was reading 134 degrees so that COULD have been the issue I'm not too sure. Ofcourse when I lifted off the throttle the car went dead lean, around 25.5. It only seems to do that when I let off with the rpms up alittle. If I come to a slow stop it doesn't do it. It also seemed that the AE changes I made brought the DC% in line quite a bit. It didn't get over 86 percent through out the datalogging session. Here they are, hopefully you guys can see them.

graebz28

iTrader: (5)

What is the minimum sPW for EBL? By increasing the offsets are you able to run a shorter sPW? Do the injectors not fire when the cmd PW is less than the min or is it added to the next PW like async does?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There isn't a minimum sync PW (sPW). The injectors will be fired at whatever the PW is. The sPW as shown in the WUD includes the compensations. It is the actual PW at the injector.

The shortest PW that an injector will still add fuel varies. Running 80.5 #/hr injectors at 22 psi this is right around 800 usec (0.8msec). If the injector PW is run down low enough this affect can usually be seen by a sudden leaning of the AFR.

By setting the injector offset compensation to this value the "fueling" PW can be run down to a very small value.

RBob.