880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI

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May 10, 2018 | 10:08 AM
  #1  
Hello, I am a new member to this forum, but have used this forum unregistered for around a year now just for the great information on here. Finally my dream is starting to come together... A badass muscle car. I purchased a 1990 Suburban sitting on 33s with this motor in it. Frame got shitty so I cut the losses and pulled the good tranny and motor I had left. A month goes buy and I come across a cleanish/nonrusted R title 92 RS Camaro with the 305 to swap my 350 into. Now the R title is from a front end collision and has damage to middle of the rad support. But super easy to fix and still drives straight. I have access to a lift and all the tools needed to do my motor swap but Im missing some knowledge on this motor and can’t seem to find the answered. What’s my compression on my motor or is that based on pistons? I know 880 blocks are roller cam provised if I’m not mistaken, but are 193 heads also? Or is that totally not related and I would just need hydraulic lifters? I know I know swirl port sucks, runs out of breath at 4500rpm, etc... but I’m using them until I can afford vortecs. What would be a good cam set up for 193 heads due to there low powerband and like .450 max lift. I don’t want to be replacing more then just the cam and essentials. I don’t have the most knowledge like most of you veterans on here and that’s why I come to y’all for help and sorry if anything I said was not exactly spot on this is a learning process still for me. Please clear up anything I have mistaken please.
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May 10, 2018 | 05:39 PM
  #2  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
880 block have roller provisions; 99.999% of the ones with swirlies on them didn't get rollers though.

Most likely, to equip that motor with a roller cam, you'll need a roller cam (duh), roller lifters, shorter push rods, the "figure 8" lifter retainers, the "spider" thing that acts like a spring to hold them down, a cam retainer, the hardware to hold the spider and cam retainer in, and a roller cam timing set.

Heads are not "roller cam provisioned" in any way different from anything else.

Frankly if it was me, I'd leave it alone and save my money and not bother with any of that other until I had decent heads to replace those crappy head-shaped objects on it now.
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May 10, 2018 | 05:53 PM
  #3  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: 880 block have roller provisions; 99.999% of the ones with swirlies on them didn't get rollers though.

Most likely, to equip that motor with a roller cam, you'll need a roller cam (duh), roller lifters, shorter push rods, the "figure 8" lifter retainers, the "spider" thing that acts like a spring to hold them down, a cam retainer, the hardware to hold the spider and cam retainer in, and a roller cam timing set.

Heads are not "roller cam provisioned" in any way different from anything else.

Frankly if it was me, I'd leave it alone and save my money and not bother with any of that other until I had decent heads to replace those crappy head-shaped objects on it now.
Ah I see and I agree, with cams being fairly cheap if it was simply purchasing a $150 cam I would do it, but that’s what I wasn’t sure on. I’ll save up for a nice set of heads and move on from their. Also any idea the compression on these motors or is that based on pistons?
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May 10, 2018 | 05:56 PM
  #4  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Any good flat tappet cams for 193 heads and there crappy powerband? Lots of torque can take place of horsepower any day for me.
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May 10, 2018 | 06:24 PM
  #5  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
That's what's already in it, was built for. If you want torque, just run it. Keep your money in your pocket and save it for whatever you REALLY want.

Same thing I tell my kids. Yeah they hate me for raining on their parade sometimes; but after seeing acoupla their friends do the kind of stuff you're talking about (not necessarily with cars... the same economic laws apply UNIVERSALLY) they realize maybe their old fart dad isn't really as dumb as he really is after all.

Assuming it's an all-original TBI motor, compression is just over 9:1. Maybe 9¼. The "spec" is a bit ... generous ..., just like it is for ALL motors. All the errors and production line variances and whatnot, act in the direction of decreasing it from "spec".
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May 11, 2018 | 05:39 AM
  #6  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: That's what's already in it, was built for. If you want torque, just run it. Keep your money in your pocket and save it for whatever you REALLY want.

Same thing I tell my kids. Yeah they hate me for raining on their parade sometimes; but after seeing acoupla their friends do the kind of stuff you're talking about (not necessarily with cars... the same economic laws apply UNIVERSALLY) they realize maybe their old fart dad isn't really as dumb as he really is after all.

Assuming it's an all-original TBI motor, compression is just over 9:1. Maybe 9¼. The "spec" is a bit ... generous ..., just like it is for ALL motors. All the errors and production line variances and whatnot, act in the direction of decreasing it from "spec".
You sound like my father lmao and I’m totally in agreence with you, it will run and get smiles from me all day, just appreciate it until I can move farther ahead on the build. Should only take me a couple weeks to be able to purchase new heads and a cam.
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May 11, 2018 | 06:44 AM
  #7  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
If I get a prom chip will I have to purchase another if I switch over to vortec heads and cam later in time? I already have flowtech headers and have to cut subframe and plate it to fit it, but I wanted to do that so when someone looks underneath they’re like how the eff did you fit that their. Through the bottom not the top!
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May 11, 2018 | 06:57 AM
  #8  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote:
If I get a prom chip will I have to purchase another if I switch over to vortec heads and cam later in time?
Depends on the cam. Which in turn, depends on what you're doing with the car.

Save your ¢¢ until you can get the roller stuff. Don't bother with flat-tappet setups in 2018 when your block will accommodate the other. To avoid the Vortec head lift limit at a low cost, use these springs http://www.texas-speed.com/p-1383-ls...od-to-550.aspx and Comp 787 retainers.

If this is TPI, you'll need to save more than ¢¢ to keep it; and you won't be real happy with the results anyway. Get rid of that. I'd recommend some other EFI intake, Stealth Ram for example.
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May 11, 2018 | 10:15 AM
  #9  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: Depends on the cam. Which in turn, depends on what you're doing with the car.

Save your ¢¢ until you can get the roller stuff. Don't bother with flat-tappet setups in 2018 when your block will accommodate the other. To avoid the Vortec head lift limit at a low cost, use these springs http://www.texas-speed.com/p-1383-ls...od-to-550.aspx and Comp 787 retainers.

If this is TPI, you'll need to save more than ¢¢ to keep it; and you won't be real happy with the results anyway. Get rid of that. I'd recommend some other EFI intake, Stealth Ram for example.
Throttle Body Injection not Tuned Port Injection thank god! And I see they have a list price in the low 70s does that include a whole set or 1 valve spring for 70?
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May 11, 2018 | 12:19 PM
  #10  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
It’s for a set
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May 11, 2018 | 01:12 PM
  #11  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: It’s for a set
Thank you
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May 11, 2018 | 01:19 PM
  #12  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Anyone use Flotek heads?
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May 11, 2018 | 05:41 PM
  #13  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Never heard of em.
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May 11, 2018 | 06:52 PM
  #14  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Here is what Ja85z28 did to his 305.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...-aerohead.html
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May 11, 2018 | 09:12 PM
  #15  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: Here is what Ja85z28 did to his 305.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...-aerohead.html
I’m 350 gang I don’t think those would be stufficent
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May 11, 2018 | 09:13 PM
  #16  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: Never heard of em.
Hotrod ran tests on multiple heads compared to stock iron vortec heads, the floteks compared to scoggin Dickey’s and other good heads for 300-500 less for a set.
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May 12, 2018 | 09:14 AM
  #17  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Never heard of em.

I'm more of an engine builder than a magazine reader.

Can't help you out with what they print in magazines, sorry.

How much are you looking to spend on all this? What's the rest of the car? (converter, gears, etc.)
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May 12, 2018 | 11:37 AM
  #18  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: Never heard of em.

I'm more of an engine builder than a magazine reader.

Can't help you out with what they print in magazines, sorry.

How much are you looking to spend on all this? What's the rest of the car? (converter, gears, etc.)
I get the whole magazine part, but at the end of the day it was tested and they got statistics from 8 heads, they weren’t biased, and floteks werent the best overall, but best bang for buck. Cheaper then GM after market vortec heads and come with up to .550 lift out the box preassembled ready to slap on. How isn’t that interesting to a “engine builder”. No offense.

Budget right now is 2-4 grand collectively over the next 2 months. I’m looking for a perferably 3.73 lsd or if I have to cheap out I’ll get 3.42 LSD. Definitely want to upgraded heads and cam. Looking at vortecs and floteks, cam will depend on my powerband and what will be most efficient for my motor. And of course if I switch to new heads I have to get a new intake and switch from TBI or get an adapter plate until funds become available. Those are the goals I would like to hit after I finish the suspension, paint, and rims. Then I will probably enjoy this daily racer for a few months while I have it listed to be sold to purchase a better toy.
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May 12, 2018 | 12:01 PM
  #19  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Also when it comes to a cam whatever heads I do end up purchasing if they come pre assembled flat tappet I will more then likely stick with it, the $300-$400 conversion isn’t worth it for 15-20% more power from same durations and lift flat tappet vs roller tappet. Not at this point and time, I may also take the money I get from this vehicle and purchase a crate long block LS 6.0. They are fairly cheap compared to 350 crate engines and such. I believe I’ve seen a few options for 2-3 grand for an amazing set up. I’d still have money to purchase a roller also.
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May 12, 2018 | 04:46 PM
  #20  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
I recently put together a set of NEW Assault Racing 205cc straight plug aluminum heads for $750. Bare castings are $399 on Amazon. Competition Products has a 2.02/1.60 .100" longer valve and spring kit for $215 good for 0.670" lift. Only thing left was rocker studs and guide plates which is the last $135. I also ended up with non self aligning 1.7:1 narrow body Scropion rockers ($277) that fit under stock centerbolt valve covers. For a little under $1500 I had EVERYTHING for the swap including hardened pushrods, head gaskets, intake gaskets, head bolts and spark plugs. I have not run it yet but will once I find time to put the engine back in. Cam is a Comp 215/224 @ .050 roller on a 110 LSA that ended up with 0.568" lift with the 1.7s. Its a Vortec based EFI engine, FWIW or I would have gone with more cam. These heads flowed over 260 cfm @ .550 lift intake and 180 @ .550 exhaust. At 0.650" they were about 10 cfm higher.
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May 12, 2018 | 05:12 PM
  #21  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: I recently put together a set of NEW Assault Racing 205cc straight plug aluminum heads for $750. Bare castings are $399 on Amazon. Competition Products has a 2.02/1.60 .100" longer valve and spring kit for $215 good for 0.670" lift. Only thing left was rocker studs and guide plates which is the last $135. I also ended up with non self aligning 1.7:1 narrow body Scropion rockers ($277) that fit under stock centerbolt valve covers. For a little under $1500 I had EVERYTHING for the swap including hardened pushrods, head gaskets, intake gaskets, head bolts and spark plugs. I have not run it yet but will once I find time to put the engine back in. Cam is a Comp 215/224 @ .050 roller on a 110 LSA that ended up with 0.568" lift with the 1.7s. Its a Vortec based EFI engine, FWIW or I would have gone with more cam. These heads flowed over 260 cfm @ .550 lift intake and 180 @ .550 exhaust. At 0.650" they were about 10 cfm higher.
Very impressive and how did you acheive that cheap of a price? How much use have you put on them and how are they holding up? What’s stock lift on those heads? Would those be practical on a daily? Would never see snow or rain.

sorry for boatload of questions just looking at all options. I want the most practical for my car price, power, reliability wise
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May 12, 2018 | 05:23 PM
  #22  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote:


Very impressive and how did you acheive that cheap of a price? How much use have you put on them and how are they holding up? What’s stock lift on those heads? Would those be practical on a daily? Would never see snow or rain.

sorry for boatload of questions just looking at all options. I want the most practical for my car price, power, reliability wise
I have no idea on how it will all end up yet. But was merely stating what I have put together.

I bought the heads bare and they require 0.100 longer valves. The valve springs that come with the kit are good for 0.670" lift. I assembled the heads myself and did my own valve job. If you don't have the various tools needed to do that you would have to factor in a valve job at a machine shop and assembly but in my experience that can be very reasonable in cost. I chose to buy them bare because I wanted to make sure that they were properly assembled and had a good valve job.
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May 13, 2018 | 07:51 AM
  #23  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: I have no idea on how it will all end up yet. But was merely stating what I have put together.

I bought the heads bare and they require 0.100 longer valves. The valve springs that come with the kit are good for 0.670" lift. I assembled the heads myself and did my own valve job. If you don't have the various tools needed to do that you would have to factor in a valve job at a machine shop and assembly but in my experience that can be very reasonable in cost. I chose to buy them bare because I wanted to make sure that they were properly assembled and had a good valve job.
Ah I see, assembly will be done by me or my father. But I planned on purchasing preassembled heads, how much HP are you?
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May 13, 2018 | 08:36 AM
  #24  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Also angled or straight plug heads on an 880 block or is that depending on each set up and where wires are?
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May 13, 2018 | 09:56 AM
  #25  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
You can put either style on any block. The block does not care which way the plugs point.

Angled typically is more efficient, by locating the plug in a better place. Especially in older stock heads, not so much in all modern ones, but it's part of legend now so some people want it that way just for that. Some exhaust setups dictate what you can or can't use.
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May 13, 2018 | 10:14 AM
  #26  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: You can put either style on any block. The block does not care which way the plugs point.

Angled typically is more efficient, by locating the plug in a better place. Especially in older stock heads, not so much in all modern ones, but it's part of legend now so some people want it that way just for that. Some exhaust setups dictate what you can or can't use.
That’s what I thought but wasn’t too sure. Thanks for clearing that up.
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May 13, 2018 | 10:59 AM
  #27  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote:


That’s what I thought but wasn’t too sure. Thanks for clearing that up.
Most headers are built for straight plugs. Easier to just stick with straight plugs in most applications. It makes header selection and spark plug wire selection far easier in most cases because there are more options available.
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May 14, 2018 | 01:58 PM
  #28  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: Most headers are built for straight plugs. Easier to just stick with straight plugs in most applications. It makes header selection and spark plug wire selection far easier in most cases because there are more options available.
Ah I see, thank you for clearing this up. Answered a lot of questions for me thank you!
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May 17, 2018 | 11:12 PM
  #29  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
I have driven on the heads I mentioned for 3 days now. My impression...My 350 Vortec absolutely RIPS now! If I did not have a fuel kill rev limiter at 6,200, it would probably keep pulling to 7,000 rpm or until it destroyed something in the bottem end. Since it is still a stock bottem end I am shifting it at about 5,900-6,000 rpm at WOT. I am still running the same tune I was running with the cast iron vortecs. It is running a bit rich and I could probably squeeze a few more degrees of timing into the engine a little sooner. My MAF readings have jumped up about 50-80 gms/sec above 4,000 rpm compared to the old heads amd those had 2.02/1.60 valves too. Cam is a 215/224 duration Comp Cam hydraulic roller on Magunum high lift lobes on a 110 lsa with 4° advance ground in and ends up at 0.568" lift on both sides with the 1.7 rockers. I ended up using GM head gaskets advertised for cast iron or aluminum heads that come in at 0.028" compressed. I came up with roughly 9.45:1 compression running the numbers. The factory 4L80E high stall converter flash stalls about 2,400 rpm. From 2,400 rpm it just keeps pulling harder as the RPM rises until the PCM shifts the trans. I honestly do not feel I lost anything torque wise from the larger ports at WOT. Maybe a little off-idle and part throttle but IMO who cares.

One thing I forgot to mention in the build cost was the $40 set of Comp cams steel spring seat locators I had to measure and install under the springs. I also forgot to mention the small tube of thread seal I had to get for the rocker arm studs. To install the heads on the engine I used Jegs branded head bolts with washers designed for aluminum heads. No TTYL stuff, just 3 evenly spaced passes to 70 ft/lbs. My first set of pushrods that were stock length ended up 0.040" too short, but a quick trip to Summit Racing got that squared away.

While the engine was out I also addressed a leaking water pump by adding a Flowkooler pump and wrapped the headers. This engine has NEVER run as cool as it now does. I have a 25% underdrive crank pulley. It was 95°F outside today and at IDLE running the A/C with a mechanical clutch fan it was running 178°F with a 170°F thermostat.
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May 17, 2018 | 11:43 PM
  #30  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Way to go Fast355. I hope it keeps running well with no problems.
It sounds like you got something right - like 1000 rpm of unexpected usable power.
That has happened to me a few times. That's what happens with careful planning, measuring, and paying attention to the details.
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May 17, 2018 | 11:59 PM
  #31  
Re: 880 Shortblock with 193/Swirlport Heads and TBI
Quote: Way to go Fast355. I hope it keeps running well with no problems.
It sounds like you got something right - like 1000 rpm of unexpected usable power.
That has happened to me a few times. That's what happens with careful planning, measuring, and paying attention to the details.
Same here! I feel they should hold up but who knows. I am actually more so hoping the bottem end holds together from the new found power and my heavy right foot. I rolled new bearings into the short block and put a 5qt pan, full length windage tray and have a big block oil pump in it that makes 70-80 psi of oil pressure above 4,000 rpm. So maybe it has a slight chance being that it is a 4 bolt main, HD nodular iron crank (think ZZ4) and GM's fairly strong PM rods.
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