I am looking to learn to weld. I need something that can do exhaust as well as things like SFCs and maybe some floor pan repair (hope not!). Was looking at Lincoln since I've heard decent things about them.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LCN-K2697-1/

I was looking into getting this. It'll do flux core and MIG as well as aluminum.

Anything think this is too much for me to start with?

Says flux core, at least spring for a real gas setup

Please read again. This is a flux core/MIG welder with provisions for gas.

Lincoln's site info on the welder:

http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Cat...t.aspx?P=61028

I dunno, id buy good name brand ones like that if I had money to burn but my 110 HF CE welder Ive had since 03 has never failed me, same stuff, flux, gas, aluminum, the key is it has 4 settings, most cheap ones only have 2.

Paid $300 for it and its gets almost daily use for home and business.
[my only addition was a big cooling fan.]

And flux core wire is fine for allot of stuff, they build battle ships with flux, arc welders are used and the sticks for it are rods of metal covered n flux,
only so the wire will feed though the machine, do they put the flux in the middle/core. It will make a strong weld.

Only thing holding my left front shock on my Big 80s GM wagon are flux core welds. Takes full weight and punishment of the road and holds.

But gas has its place too, got a small tank but never used it.

HF also sells the best wire, I tried all the name brands, the HF $50 for a 5lb spool works great, barium free multi pass wire.

Have done paper thin gas tanks to structural work[ie: the shock].

Thanks for the feedback, Gumby. I was looking at the HF ones too. I just wish they accepted Paypal/BillMeLater.

HF has an ebay store, they gotta take paypal somehow.


Though id probably say adding a nice big cooling fan to it made the difference in its long life.

heat kills electronic parts.

Gas is great if you work in a nice shop with no draft.

Unfortunately, 5 acres away from the shop, out in a field, fixing a broken tractor or something like that - flux core is the best. Wind doesn't blow away your shielding gas.

Even in the shop, I have little use for gas welding. While there are some scenarios where a gas welder will help produce a better weld, I don't come across them all that often.

-- Joe

I think it was the gas suppliers who started the rumors that flux is evil to sell more gas.

Or something like that. I have some friends that are pro welders, you know own welding companies. They have different machines for different tasks. Same here really, 220v stick welder for 'big stuff', oxy welder for 'bigger stuff' and cutting, and 110v mig/flux welder for 99.999999% of what I weld weekly.

Even with my garage door open, the draft/wind is enough to screw up the shielding gas. Unless i'm using like a .022" wire with hardly any heat on some ultra thin application, the flux is fine. Most stuff welds with .030" flux, or .035" depending on what I'm welding.

The KEY on a mig/flux welder is heat control. Having 1-5, or 1-10 heat settings and 1-10 on wire speed (think lincoln 100/110) make life a lot easier.

Another thing, if you want to weld anything structural, 80amps is MINIMUM, and as Gumby stated a cooling fan is key. Duty cycle on a welder is a big deal. If you can't weld for more than 15 minutes at a time, it's a LOOONG day.

I was tempted a few months back to purchase a 220v MIG/FLUX welder from HF on sale, but I think I'll hold out and get a used miller or lincoln when I see one pop up on craigslist. I'd love a 220v wire feed so I can retire my stick welder.

-- Joe

Is this a tractor/farm equipment forum? This guy wants good advice on how to properly learn to weld, not how he can bake and splatter a rusty old piece of steel back together.

If you always use flux core you simply are not serious about fabrication, I will not even consider using flux core. I only use MIG & TIG

If you have wind blowing away your gas shield you need to work on your shop.

This guy wants to learn how to weld and he wants to weld SFCs on his car. Do not tell him it's ok to use flux core it's not. It's a half assed approach and should be avoided. There was a guy here not long ago who had a buddy weld on his SFCs w/ a flux core. Now, with enough skill even the flux core will make a good weld but the problem is, flux core has a lot more penetration for the same heat setting & wire diameter than a gas setup. In other words, it's crap for doing sheet metal and our chassis are made of formed sheet metal sections, not thick beams like on your farm equipment.

This penetration is why flux core is a bad choice when working on cars. Only a skilled welder will be able to lay a proper bead that also looks good. Then again, if your goal is to burn some wire in the hopes that whatever you're working on sticks together then go for it. I've seen my chare of horrible welds on these and other forums and on some of the cars I've had the privilege of working on. One is my buddies 83 TA that he bought from someone here. The SFCs were welded w/ gas but whoever did it should lay down the torch.

To the topic starter, get the biggest welder w/ as much features as you can afford. Infinite, non stepped wire control is a must IMO. If not, get it with as many steps as possible. Get a 220V welder. The better welders have a much better/more stable arc. They usually have better feeder motors w/ dual driven rollers that eliminate a jerking wire feed and improve your weld bead

HF welders = chinese! Get a name brand, lincoln, miller. If you need service parts you'll be able to get them, not so with the china stuff.

Learning how to weld and using a crappy machine will lead to frustration. A good machine will make it easier to produce a good bead.

I have 2 MIG welders, one is a 160amp 220V machine, the other is a 370amp 400V machine, the bigger machine produces much bette weld beads. It's got all of the bells and whistles, infinite stepless controls and a double driven feeder motor. It has never failed me, the other one I hardly use because it's a PITA to work with. Wire speed although stepless is inconsistent because sometimes the wire slips, all the result of cheap parts. That welder was about 1/3rd the price of the other and it shows

Duty cycle is not a big deal working on cars. Welding exhaust parts or SFCs, you will never make a continuous weld bead long enough to run into duty cycle issues.

And the first one I posted, as I stated, is not only flux core but MIG as well.

On the subject of learning, get proper instruction, then practice, practice, practice, and practice some more. Nothing better than experience. MIG can be learned fairly easy. TIG requires, guess what, more practice. Talk to a welders supply, and actual welders about a machine that will be right for you, what you will be doing and budget. I personally am not a fan of flux core wire. Dean.

No, it's thirdgen forum so it's a bunch of guys and younger folks often working in their driveway because they don't have a shop like chip foose.

That is your opinion, and your entitled to it.

Please cite a technical reference or two, otherwise your just stating your opinion which should be disclaimed.

So, on an application like SFC's where you want good penetration flux core is actually quite nice.

And like I said, when welding thinner things it becomes an issue.

Perhaps there is just no competent welders outside of the US.

I'm giving advice based on my success. If you've found that yourself, and your friends have failed at welding with flux core perhaps you shouldn't be giving welding advice? I usually don't take advice from people who can't do something, I'd rather talk to the guys that have no problem doing it.


OP: Here is a good read from Lincoln.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowl...sfluxcored.asp



-- Joe

Thanks. I was confused when he said you can't use flux core for SFCs. From what I read it is strong enough to do so and is designed for thicker metal. For some reason he also said the MIG welder I linked wasn't gas, which made me chuckle. The Metal Inert Gas welder isn't gas...

Do yourself a favor and learn on MIG. I tried flux and it was crap for me at first. Especially when spot welding sheet metal. MIG is SO much easier...in my opinion.

Im using a Clarke 130E. I got it while I was working at autozone. Came with a cart and all, and set up for flux/gas welding.

Ive been using it for years. Welding axle brackets, sheet metal, tubing, exhaust...even used it on stainlesse with some 308L wire with reasonable success. I can weld steel thicker than its rating if I bevel and do multiple passes. Never an issue.

Ive seen the lincoln welders do well...but Ive seen them struggle against what mine can do also.

When you are learning, just get a welder thats in your price range. Millers have the best torches in my opinion...but those arent really in a begginners price range.

Word of warning... Once you get good, you will start to have welder envy, and will want a better welder. Then you'll want to step up to 220v. Then TIG...etc etc. Its kind of addicting almost haha.

J.

I think maybe he was confused over the 'fixed polarity'. You have to change the polarity between flux or mig welding. Most cheap welders you unplug the cable from two locations and plug them into alternate locations, but some nicer welders have a toggle.

-- Joe

Yea if you can't get a good strong weld with flux core, its the user not the welder. Just like 90% of computer problems.


Even Lincoln says it good for such uses.

" the Lincoln Electric Easy-MIG 140 welders are easy to set up for gas-less flux-cored welding for deep penetration on thicker steel, or gas-shielded MIG welding on thin-gauge steel, stainless or aluminum."

Do you have any welding supply stores like airgas or praxair nearby? I'd go there and see what they have. The airgas store by me was really helpful in getting me what I needed when I added gas to my mig welder.. Wish I would've went there first instead of spending hours and hours researching the differences between 20 different welders they had at the local farm supply store!

I do agree on using flux core on thick metal. I love it and which was mentioned before most dont have a shop and there in there driveway or garage and you need ventilation. I personally dont like gas in a garage or driveway its more expensive and also Flux core is great to work with. Its just learning the settings and what you like to work with. Since I like to have a fan or two running when I weld in the garage if I had gas it would screw it up so the flux core is great I just say mess around with some and see which one you like and also play with the settings to see what will work best for what you do. And like the one your looking at you can get one that had flux core or you can run the gas.

thanks for all the advice. trying to figure out if i want to spend the $700 on that Lincoln unit or just get a cheaper one at HF to start with for now. I definitely plan on practicing with both MIG and flux core, so no worries on that.

Right because the US is the best at everything. How old are you? 5??? A stupid derogatory remark. Show some of your welding so we all can see how good you really are with that flux core welder of yours.

I never said you can't use flux core for SFCs, I said the body and subframe structures are made of thin formed steel. You don't need the penetrating action of flux core and will do a much better job with a clean MIG weld. I referenced a post by some other guy here who had a buddy use a flux core welder to do his. The results were terrible, that guy couldn't weld either.
This is not a structural beam you're welding on. a 140 amp machine MIG will be able to burn holes clean through the subframes, if that's not enough penetration....
And even if your MIG welder was too little to get sufficient penetration you could always use flux core wire WITH shielding gas! Just make sure you have the polarity set properly. It would give the penetration benefit and a cleaner weld.

So tekkitan you chuckled huh? Like I don't know what I'm talking about? I quickly looked over the summit listing, it clearly said flux core there. Didn't look any further. Not familiar with most of those tiny welders, they don't even sell those here.


I won't give any more advice in this thread, I don't appreciate it when I'm ridiculed. Take your advice from the others who weld their old steel farming junk and their car with the same machine.

I'm going to have a chuckle when you post a thread about how you blew holes in your car and your welds all look like crap. Maybe the moderator here will come by and help you patch it up, he seems to be a welding superhero.

I put this together with my non welding skills, I didn't know what i was doing but somehow the machine settings were all correct and I fabricated not only the chassis, cage and other supports but also the engine and suspension mounts, the complete front and rear suspension and a bunch of other stuff. I must have lucked out huh?

Get out of my thread. It says it is a MIG welder and clearly has provisions for both flux core and gas. It isn't my fault you can't read.

And don't worry, I won't be burning holes in my car. You think i'm just going to get the welder and first try put some SFCs in? No. I am going to practice, the same thing I do when I try ANYTHING ELSE NEW TO ME. You are the one that came in here quick to dismiss anything and everything people said, and now it has blown up in your face.

I tried to give you some good advice but you ridiculed me because I made a reading error?

You wouldn't believe how many times a wire feeder is mistakingly called a mig welder, just because it says mig doesn't necessarily mean it's a gas setup even though by definition it would.

Stupid me for trying to be helpful.

You weren't being helpful, at all.

That isn't helpful, especially since you were wrong. Lincoln is a pretty reputable welder manufacturer. It isn't like I'm buying a Walmart brand. The thing says MIG, it says it has provisons for gas and flux core. How hard is that?

Now is that helpful? You came back and started telling them their advice is crap basically. Acting like a know it all.

I want advice from helpful people, not idiots that are going to come in and give me NOTHING of value.

It depnds on your cash flow, if you can drop $7-800 on a Lincoln then another $200-400 on a regulator n tank flux and reg wire, a good auto dark helmet [one I got from HF wokrs great too ] and a few other items, do it.

To do it all name brand and have TT wanna hump your leg happy, its gonna be a good $1500 in the end.

Now Id go that route if I could afford it but the cheap route has servered me well for many many years. The welder has paid for its over over n over several times to using it in my business.

I make n powdercoat parts for motorcycles, and yes my PC stuff is from HF too, that place saves me so much loot to spend on other goodies.

I never said lincoln wasn't reputable, HF is Chinese junk, you don't want that. I even said to buy a name brand because of the service parts available. I also gave advise on what to look for in a machine, like a dual roller feeder motor, stepless controls and so on.

So I read the summit page wrong, big deal. Same advice still stands, if at all possible get a gas setup.

So now you call me an idiot?

You know, I am out of here, good luck with the purchase of your welder.

Another person with a disrespectful remark.

I have been called a leg humper and idiot and what not here. This is a real classy section right here.

Thanks. Many people that don't weld for a living use HF welders and have zero problems. And there are service parts available from HF for these welders not to mention you can buy some quality replacement parts from places like NAPA.

Have a nice day.

And you've come in disrespecting everyone's opinions. Karma is a bitch, isn't it?

There's a difference in disagreeing about things and calling people names, obviously you don't know, which tells a good deal about your social climate.

Dude, if you keep diggin that hole, your gonna end up in China yourself

my cheap chiness junk welder makes me money, its grows several 10s n 20s daily.

Thanks Gumby. I want to get the Lincoln but that is a lot of money for something I have never done before and want to learn. If it doesn't work out, I dropped $700 on a welder I'm not going to use. Seems stupid to me.

I love HF as well. People give them bad rep because they sell China made stuff and it's cheap. If you aren't using this stuff in a shop or commercially though and you are just working on stuff around the house, you really can't go wrong with the price. I bought a 2ton alum racing jack for like $140 from them. Works great for what I need it for. I am sure if I had a shop and used it heavily on a daily basis, it'll fail pretty quickly.

Not much man. When your "disagreeing" pretty much tells them they don't know what they are talking about, I think that is a bit more personal than name calling.

Sticks, stones, bones, all that jazz.

Just make sure and get one with 4 power settings, ones with only 2 will do less.

spend what ya saved on fireworks

Oh and TT, I just checked [my email] and my chineese HF welder/money tree bought in 03, just grew another $20

haha too bad most fireworks are illegal in ohio. thanks for the advice

This is a welding competition now?

I think you need to chill out..

Diversity in skill is key.


I learned how to weld when I was 14. You don't have to be a superhero to weld properly. It's a skill so far down at the bottom of my list it's not even funny. It's down their with properly fixing a leaking toilet, and taking out the trash without tearing the bag. Really. I think you are taking welding a bit too personal.

Take a chill pill.

-- Joe

I buy some stuff from HF. Some is good, some has been junk. I don't have the gonads to try one of their welders just because if it breaks I'm gonna get all kinds of cranky. But 7 years is pretty good.

Like I said, I almost bought the 220v mig a few months ago when it was on sale but. I couldn't do it. Probably would have been fine, but I'd probably still use my 110v more.


-- Joe

No I take welding and fabrication seriously, especially on a car and not just from a safety standpoint. Everyone should strive for the best results possible and that starts with the proper tools. The only thing I take personal is the crappy remarks and personal insults by some people here.

I will apologies as I may be picking on you a little TT but as of late, I am banning and blocked 5-10 IP address a day, every day in my motorcycle forum from flooders and spammers and 99% of those all trace back to the Netherlands

Im close to putting a block on the whole region again.

As I said, you made it personal first.

Just like we haven’t made any football references, just cause 1 team has 6 superbowl wins and 1 still has 0, it isn't gonna add useful info to the welder talk

Just wanted to add this pic though, part number probably changed but mine is a DualMig 131/2, though I did add a big cooling fan to it ASAP.
[cheap ones often don't have a fan, that only cost them $2 but its like that for some reason but they all should have one, the case is tamped for it already.]


Pic taken when I boxed up my suspension parts. One of my first mods.
Also a welder is better then a hammer at times. I can just make stuff when I need it. Dunno how I ever got along without one.

I agree with TT. I am not as good a fabricator as TT, but it is something I take seriously. I have two welders. They are both Lincolns. I have had trouble with both of them. Maybe its just me, I dont know. I have a small 110 volt MIG welder (that I will only use with gas) and a 220 volt TIG welder. I think if I were to buy another welder right now I might try Miller.

As far as what type of welder to buy, I would only buy one that can use gas and I would only use it with gas. The welds are much cleaner. When I first started using my welder I didnt have the gas setup yet. I couldnt believe how much nicer the welds were with the gas hooked up. As stated above also, when welding SFC's on you are much better off with the gas setup. Yes the SFC's are thicker steel, but the car is not.

I personally would never buy a cheap welder. There is nothing more frustrating to me than being in the middle of a project and haveing a tool break. As I said above, my TIG welder is currently broken. The output **** basically does nothing. If your lucky after 15 minutes of turning it you can get the amps to move some. However, all I need to do is bring it back to where I bought it and its getting fixed for free. This saves me several hundred dollars over having to pay for the repair.

I am a ironworker for living and have been for 12 years. If you really want to weld and not get discouraged with it why not take a class some where? Like a R.O.P. or a community college. A semester or two would work to get the hang of it.

Here is some food for thought, everytime I strike an arc I do the best bead that I can do. An 1/8" bead on a shock tower or 1/2" bead on an I beam have one thing in common. If the weld were to fail someone may lose their life.

I really think you may get more enjoyment out of it if you understand the many different processes than to just buy machine and burn some rod or wire on scrap metal.

I agree with nick55. I took welding classes at the tech college for a few months, classes at them are often "open-entry open-exit" and the tuition is much less than you'd think.

When it comes to welder selection, I'd have to agree with twin-turbo...
MIG is the way to go, Especially when you're learning. And don't cheap out on it, or on the wire you use

I work 12 hour 3rd shifts and don't really have time to attend classes during the week. Havent seen any classes on the weekend.

Yes not everyone will have a nack for welding but some do its just practice I aint the best but I do have a little 110v fluxcore wire welder from HF I love it and I has not failed me yet I do plan on having a Miller TIG and MIG later on but now I aint working in a shop I dont need a big one I just gt one to do stuff around the garage nothing major. Personally if you want a clean weld I say TIG. But most the time you need strength and Fluxcore with Argon shielding gas gets penetration and looks good but its not hard making a fluxcore bead look good its called dressing your welds most do it even with gas to make it look nicer. But which would you either have nice and pretty or strength in a weld. I do prefer Fluxcore but I dont mind dressing them when I am done. If I could afford it now I would have a 220 gas and run fluxcore wire threw it. And thin metal I prefer TIG no matter what since its so much easier to control with some experience under your belt. I am not a professional or a genius I am just giving my advice. But dont go cheap with wire HF is decent wire but not the best for the same price. And go autodarking helmet no matter what HF are good ones and not very expensive I use it more then my MATCO helmet. Just do your research. Big brands and most expensive dont always mean the best. You dont need to take my advice no one does but I will give you my advice. Hope you get a good welder and have little to no problems and have fun welding. And just practice hey if you got old steel laying around and your not going to use make something out of it for practice and to get the chance to know the controls and settings and see what your comfortable with.

Sorry if I repeat something, but I started reading and then went to skimming and skipping over when the bickering started.

quick answers (if you have questions about them ask):
- for that money if you _want_ a lincoln I'd suggest the similar Power MIG 140, which comes with everything you need for both flux and MIG, it's a better welder and their sugggested retail is less than the link that you posted, you should be able to get it for less. Of their current small MIG models the Power MIG line is the only one that I'd recommend. Of the big names I prefer the hobart handlers, but all the big names make good welders in this class, you just need to know what you're choosing and why, but generally till the Power MIG line the Lincolns in this class had some problems that I hated (which the power Mig's fixec), and the Millers are just hobarts (they're the same company, for example, my Hobart shipped with a miller logo on the gun) with a few extra bells and whistles which ups the $$$ and I think makes them actually harder to use (MUCH harder for beginners to figure out). Be aware that they all have slightly different theory for power supply output and tracking linearity, so someone that knows how to use one might end up with problems with another unless they understand or can adjust for the differences.
- yea, a bigger welder would be nice, but there are things that only something like this will do, like you can take this anywhere where you can plug into a decent 120VAC outlet and weld something. If you need to weld something thicker learn to weave or multipass. If you're doing production work where time is money then you'll do it faster in one pass with a bigger welder.
- flux vs MIG- they're different, one is not better then the other. MIG is easier to learn because flux smokes and the weld is covered with flux so you can't see what you're doing as well as you're doing it. OTOH, flux actually spatters less (if you're doing it right), gives you more penetration if you need it, and can be used in windy/crappy conditions. I keep both around and use them for different things (heck, I've got a TIG also, and use them all for different things, FWIW, I probably use the TIG the least), but in a pinch, if I run out of flux core wire or shielding gas, typically I can interchange and still finish the job. There are plenty of people that do body work and exhaust work successfully with flux core.
- things like infinite voltage settings do not help, you can really get by with 4 taps in this range, and technique is more important than voltage settings. Heck, more often than not I leave mine sitting on 3 and adjust for what i'm doing with technique rather than going back to the machine and changing settings. I start messing with settings when I'm doing something really fussy, or when doing heavy structural stuff like 1/2" or 1" steel with weaves... More settings just make it harder to learn, because they give you something to fiddle with when things are going wrong that really rarely have anything to do with the problem.
- a few of the local welding supplies have online stores which might work for you... in my case one of my local welding supplies has some of the better deals on ebay and will let you pay and pick them up locally... check ebay. there are a few major vendors that have better pricing, and at least a few of them are actually real, brick and mortar shops with people that know what they're talking about.
- There are cheaper welders out there that work (my brother uses an $89 HF one that he's happy with for tacking stuff together and small projects), but the welding learning curve can be steep so people often give up on them and think they don't work. I'd suggest if you get something and are having problems get someone that knows what they're doing to try it. My brother tried unsuccessfully for like 2 weeks before he asked me to stop by and try it, and besides 2 problems (insufficient power, he had it plugged into an overloaded circuit using too small and too long an extension chord, and on the cheap HF welder the wire is always live making it hard to line up the weld before pulling the trigger) it worked fine, I just had to show him now to use it.

FWIW, I have a Hobart Handler MIG, a Miller Synchrowave TIG, and an HTP Plasma, I've done whole projects with those, a lincoln MIG, a Miller MIG... like I said, all the major players make good stuff, it's more a question of the person using them, but they all have advantages and disadvantages.

I donno, I'm sure I forgot something useful, if I remember or you ask I'll try to add to this...

I'll probably be called an idiot again here but MIG is the hardest process to master.

It's easy to burn wire but it's hard to do it right, consistently and all the time. With TIG you have full real time control over your weld puddle 9that is ig you have a foot or thumb control), with MIG you set your settings and you're along for the ride apart from what little you can do with gun angle, weaving patterns ans such.

The nature of MIG welding also makes it hard to see the puddle's edges and it flowing into the parent material. For one the gun can be in the way and second your retina will naturally focus on the bright center of the puddle and not the darker colored edges yet it's these edges you have to watch to see it flowing into the parent material and to judge your speed. This is what you have to practice on, concentrate on the puddle and eventually you will get to see the puddles edges, it takes practice (and a good helmet that's not too dark)

Everyone can burn wire, welding is not burning wire.

Thanks for the info. I found a couple retailers selling the power mig 140 but it's about $200 more actually. Any ideas where to find it cheaper? hehe