what the subject says what is the WS6 package???

 

someone please explain....

 

First of all, welcome to thirdgen.org! My name is robertg, and i am a moderator of the northeastern regional board.

I'll try to explain briefly what I know about the WS6 suspension.

WS6 is a performance suspension option available on the Formulas, Trans Ams, and comes as standard equipment on the GTA's. Basically what you get are slightly lower springs, and larger swaybars, and with the J65 option, you get 4 wheel disk brakes. Correct me if I am wrong here, Drew or Alex?

Alex (92GTA) is pretty knowledgeable, as is Drew, one of the moderators of the history/restoration board.

That is as much as I know about the Pontiac suspension, I have heard that the Pontiacs with WS6 typically rode smoother than the Z28 or IROC-Z equipped Chevrolets. If I remember correctly, I think it was Drew who was comparing the two cars in terms of suspension.

There was a post back in late November or early December from a member by the name of sammycalderon who asked about the differences in the suspension packages, and if they were believed to be the same.

Also, if you're asking about specific components of the suspension, you may want to direct your question to the suspension board.

Thanks

Robert

 

Robertg's pretty close...

WS6 ultimately is just a marketing gimmick for Pontiac. Its a nifty term kinda like Z28, designed and coined to get people interested in performance. There were some variations on what the WS6 package included from year to year, but the big ones that stay constant are stiffer springs, and thicker sway bars. Some years WS6 included specific wheels, 4 wheel disc brakes, high performance tires, etc...

WS6 was optional on the Firebird SE, and Trans Am. Formula's and GTA's had it standard.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&highlight=WS6

 

Yeah they have different characteristics. The IROC/Z28 Suspension is rougher and capable of slightly better G's and cornering than WS6/Firebird Suspension, but they have a smoother ride than Camaros.

 

Actually, forget it. Magazine tests

 

Both cars do not handle exactly the same. They handle as I have stated. I have felt the difference myself. I put together a chart of all known lateral G tests (GM and magazine) done on these cars and the Camaros of the same year are higher. (I found many more results for Camaros then Firebirds, which is usually the case anyway) Every tester also said the same thing, AND Chevrolet and Pontiac said the same thing.

 

Well, since you are bent on magazine tests, how about this:

Car and Driver, June 1987
The Best American GT
Camaro versus Mustang versus Firebird-and don't spare the brass knuckles.

Same drivers, same course, same day, same equipment. Doesnt get any more accurate than that.

Results:
Roadholding, 300-ft skidpad, g

Camaro IROC-Z: .85
Formula: .86
Dustang GT: .82

Manuverability, 1000-ft slalom, mph
Camaro IROC-Z: 64.8
Formula: 65.8
Dustang GT: 64.9

The text clearly picked the Formula as better riding and handling, noting it was sans- two step move that the IROC had.

Theres your magazine article.

In 1985, Pontiac proudly proclaimed that the Trans Am would outcorner the IROC-Z. When I find proof if I decide to look, I'll post it.

 

Lets hear it for the bird!

 

LOL, whoever drove that IROC-Z couldn't drive. GM found the 85 IROC-Z capable of .92 G's. Thats also only 1 test and 1 opinion. I have seen multiple tests saying different. Its usually agreed that the Formula WS6 produces a "light" feel while still being 130lbs. heavier than a equally optioned IROC-Z. WS6 is a smoother suspension which on a lighter car like the Formula would give that feel unlike the GTA which weighs a few hundred pounds more which kinda messes up that light feel. The IROC's/Z28's have this rough ride, sharp cornering feel, which I happen to like better, especially after feeling both cars. It is usually noted too, that Camaros seem to handle better in turns at lower speeds and and Firebirds seem to handle better in turns at higher speeds, which sometimes gives them a better slalom speed. "Camaro is fast in and fast out, Firebird is fast in and slow out" 87 test. Camaros like the skidpad and Firebirds like the slalom. Who knows.

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=450 border=1>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=bottom bgColor=#c0c0c0>Year</TH>
<TH vAlign=bottom bgColor=#c0c0c0>Camaro</TH>
<TH vAlign=bottom bgColor=#c0c0c0>Firebird</TH></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=bottom bgColor=#c0c0c0>82</TH>
<TD>Z28: .821g's (magazine test)<BR>.82g's (magazine test)</TD>
<TD>&nbsp;</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=bottom bgColor=#c0c0c0>85</TH>
<TD>IROC-Z28: .845g's (magazine test)<BR>.85g's (magazine test)<BR>.87g's (magazine test)<BR>.89g's (magazine test)<BR>.92g's (GM test)</TD>
<TD>&nbsp;</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=bottom bgColor=#c0c0c0>87</TH>
<TD>IROC-Z28: .87g's (magazine test)<BR>.88g's (GM test)</TD>
<TD>GTA: .84g's (magazine test)</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=bottom bgColor=#c0c0c0>88</TH>
<TD>IROC-Z28: .87g's (magazine test)</TD>
<TD>&nbsp;</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=bottom bgColor=#c0c0c0>89</TH>
<TD>IROC-Z28: .9g's (magazine test)</TD>
<TD>GTA & TTA: .86g's (GM test)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Excerts from 87 interviews:

Chevrolet:

"Chevrolet's goal was to make the Z28 the best handling car in its class. Through our IROC program, it has evolved to a high level, and we think we've achieved our goal." "We go for more roadhandling than Pontiac and usually obtain .2-.3 G's higher and think the American musclecar is best represented by the Camaro Z28 and the IROC-Z"

Pontiac:

"0-60 times and the highest lateral G readings aren't the be-all and end-all." "We go for more compliant suspension."

 

WEll, the formie's had faster times that the TA, or the GTA due to weight issues and such....

 

Well, lets see... Rich Ceppos, who used to race. Csaba Csere, who races. And I'm sure more from the magazine were there. Not to mention Jim Hall from Chevrolet, Jim Kennedy from Ford, and Jim Lyons from Pontiac. The best numbers posted by anyone were used.

Yea, real bonehead drivers.

 

OK, lets give the Formula your .86 G rating. Another test in 87 (Road and Track) got the IZ .87 G's and GM got .88 G's with it so.......

Check out the chart. When it comes to best G numbers, the Camaro's are always higher, it depends as always just how high it is. I really doubt the 85 TA would outcorner an 85 IROC-Z, check out the tests. Which Third Gen F-Body won best handling car built in America?? The Camaro.

 

Double Post because of server.

 

#1 You dont list your sources.
#2 Whats wrong, cant accept bold faced facts? Tests done by different people on different days in different cars with different equipment is going to yield... are you ready? DIFFERENT RESULTS! What a concept.

#3 Want more?

Car and Driver:
August 1984: 1984 TA Anniversary : .82g
October 1985: 1985 IROC's: .83g
April 1985: 1985 TA: .86g
July 1986: 1986 350 IROC: .84g

Road and Track:
October 1984: 1985 IROC: .90g
December 1984: 1985 IROC: 85g
October 1986: 1986 350 IROC: .80g
Unknown date 1987: 1987 GTA: .87g, 1987 IROC .84g

GM published: 1987 TA: .90g Gosh, is that more than the same GM test you said was .88g for the IROC? *gasp*

Notice the rediculous variance in R+T's numbers, hence the reason I dont trust those quacks. Check out their 85 results... pathetic. .05g variance? Its not worth the paper its printed on. And yet they tested 2 87's on the same day, and which one had higher G's?

 

Every source is a Road and Track, GM, Car and Driver, or Motor Trend test.

I know these things vary. I think I made that clear in an earlier post where I said, it always depends just how high they are.

Also if u were to compare the best rating's obtained GM or not, you'd find a Camaro better, like the .92 G's by GM compared to .90 G's as u say, which is the best I've ever heard for a Firebird. The Camaro is with lateral G's like the Firebird is with coefficiant drag.

 

One more thing, where does it say that the formula is a heavier car than the Iroc's? I've never seen a truly dependable weight chart. I have a non ttop, Formula with no pwr windows, door locks, mirrors, hatch, rear defrost etc etc etc and also, they have a weight edge because they have no ground effects as well. I am just suprised that is suposedly outweighs an iroc.

 

What I was told/ have found out about the main difference in Pontiacs suspension and Chevy's is that Pontiac liked to go with big swaybars and heavy duty springs to get there cars to handle, but went with a shock/strut that was more forgiving/less harsh, while Chevy would depend more upon there shocks/struts than pontiac at the expense of slightly smaller swaybars and lower spring rate springs. This can have alot to do with the feel of driving one of these cars. I don't know which one truly has an edge. I would assume though that stock, the Chevy suspension feel may be more confident to the driver and might produce better times, but I'd also feel that if you slapped a nice set of aftermarket shocks on both of these cars that the edge would swing to the Pontiac side of the pendulum.

 

I have a rather unique perspective on the WS6 vs Iroc suspension... I own both... When you put the two cars on the street they handle effectively the same. The Iroc feels more solid but also rattles a lot more but the Formula can follow the Iroc thru everything just as well. They feel different, but then again they're supposed to. GM used the same springs in both cars. The only differences were sway bars, and maybe the shocks/struts. Really its not anything worth arguing about because these cars are old enough that the original shocks and struts are shot on all of them, and the only remaining difference is a wonderbar ($30 & 10 minutes) and 2mm thicker swaybars.

So really, WHO CARES! They both handle the same where any of us is going to notice.

 

Youre right, its kinda pointless. Its just that some people are insistent that their car is the best car on the face of the planet no matter what, and even in the face of facts that refute the claim, its still better. I guess I should let people like that keep living in their dream world, but thats not my personality.

I remembered I have another article at home in which there was a Mustang-Camaro comparo, and they threw in a Formula for the heck of it. IIRC it was in the 90's, and it may just have numbers for cornering in it. I have no idea what the results will be, but regardless I will post them whatever they may be. I dont care what you try to say about absolute numbers, but statistically if you are trying to compare 2 different items no matter what they are, you test and compare them at the same time in the same location, and preferably by a group of people... but the same group.

"Which Third Gen F-Body won best handling car built in America??"

Who cares? Its all a matter of opinion. In 1987, the article from C+D I was referring to where a representative from each manufacturer was there, guess what car got picked? Keep in mind not only did the magazine editors pick the same cars, so did the factory reps. Sorry to say, it was the Mustang GT. Guess what finished last? Is that YOUR opinion? Obviously not. But you take that group of people, and they dont agree with you at all. Neither do I.

As for real world differences, the shocks are definitely different between the two. Seeing as how the swaybars are and have always been smaller on the Camaro, the springs are assumably identical, then the shocks and possibly the bushings used absolutely have to be stiffer in the Camaro. Does that make it handle and corner better? Time for a story...

Back in the early-mid 90's when Jackie Stewart was working for Ford, the Ford engineers were scratching their heads trying to figure out what to do with the suspension on the Cobra to make it corner better and faster. So out went the stock GT parts, and in went stiffer springs, bigger swaybars, stiff bushings, stiffer shocks, etc etc etc. Still not the results they wanted. So, Jackie takes the car out, drives it, comes back to the pit area and tells them to get rid of whatever is on the car suspension wise. He changed all of the parts and when he was done, the car was much faster than before, and it rode better. Stiff does not mean fast by any means. Fast is defined by how fast the car can go, not how fast it removes the fillings from your teeth.

IMO I think the Firebirds suspension is better. Probably why I own one huh? I've driven my fair share of IROC/Z28's and they do ride a little harsher, but not much. What I didnt like was its uneasiness at the edge of cornering, it was not a predictable transition from maximum grip to loss of grip, it was real sudden and didnt recover well. None of the Firebirds I have driven, owned, modified have exhibited that behavior. I also had a rental Camaro for a while (3 months) that was so unstable in the back that the car literally scared me, and thats a pretty hard thing to do. Its not at all funny when you are trying to avoid an accident and the back end of the car wants to swap with the front. The transition from understeer to oversteer was so abrupt in that car, it was literally out of control and unsafe. I've spun a few times in both types messing around, and every time with a Firebird I knew it was coming because I was simply going too fast, and the transition from ok to bad was very gradual. Not so with the Camaro.
Thats my .02 on it. You dont agree, well you are entitled to your opinion as well as I am entitled to mine. When I get home, Ill look up a few more stats I know I have and post them. I'm 99% sure I have a Mustang-Camaro comparo from 92 that should have skidpad numbers too, but they didnt test a Firebird AFAIK.

 

LOL, that is YOU exactly. You are the guy you just described, ROFL!! :sillylol:

Why don't u take your attitude somewhere else, I don't care what u say,and I'm not gonna because of it. I know what I know and I've driven both. The Camaro IMO handles better, thats what Chevy went for. U think I'm just saying that because I like Camaros?? You are very wrong. I'm the 1st to say when friends or any1 ask with car has better aerodynamics that the Firebird does. I like the Firebirds too and have bought lots of stuff on them also, not just Camaros. I always liked Camaros more, but I wanted an 84 TA or another TA for a long time, don't want it anymore though. If I had lots of $$ I have a few of both but more Camaros. I've been in both and to me, the Camaro is the better car, has more advantages, looks better, and is the car for me. If u can't handle that, don't post. Thank you for showing you're pompus once again and have to always dispute everything as always. Whatever. U should try being freindly for once.

 

I'm not trying to get in the middle of you two guys here. I have owned both myself as well as both of you have. I have my own personal feelings on this as well. In my personal driving experiance, I would take a Formula over an IRoc, which is why I purchased one. Many magazines did not test the firebird in comparisons and factory "tests" and numbers don't hold much truth to me. We all know how HP ratings and many other things are commonly fibbed about. The Camaro outsells the firebird and gets more write ups. They get tested more and raved about more. It is very hard to find a non biased test of these cars. Drivers input is also very important on how these tests go. A persons comfort level is directly linked to how they will drive a car, so if one was to like the feel of one car better, they may very well drive it a little harder than another. I'm the kind of guy who will drive the hell out of anything and see what it's got, what it can truly do. WHat Madmax said is exactly how I feel about the two vhicles. The Camaro has a tendancy to get out of shape quickly and is hard to recover. The rigidity does not mean it handles better at all, but much like the rumble of an exhaust can make someone feel like there car is faster, it's not always true. The pontiac suspension feels more plush, but when you push it, it pushes back and seems alot more stable, especially during very spirited driving, where the camaro you can take to the edge, but it does not always come back. If a non biased test was run, i'd like to see the true results. Much like how dyno runs differ, so do tests of handling, acceleration etc etc. and when a car gets tested much more and is the true sales leader of a company, it is not suprising for it to have "an edge" over it's sister product in the few head to head tests that were done.

I respect your opinion and I fully understand why you love/prefer your IRoc, cause there a hell of a car, I just have the opposite opinion when it comes to which car has more advantages, is the better car and looks better.

I respect your opinion very much, but will not take tests as fact or law that one of these cars is better than the other. To me, it comes down to who the driver feels is the better car and that person can push that car harder than another could. That goes for me in my Formula and you in your Iroc. So neither one of us is wrong, i just think people don't like to hear that something is an undisputable fact when it really isn't.

 

I think that sums it up.