did you miss the last 15 or so posts that were talking about doing a set of lifters? you have to remove cylinder heads to do lifters on an ls series engine.

sucks dude, keep your head up, throw and fresh slug in the hole, and ride.

 

Oh man... I dont know why I thought you pulled the heads when you had the motor out last time. #7 is a common issues on LS motors I believe. The pieces had to go somewhere, hopefully they didnt destroy the combustion chamber or valves in the process.

Post a pic of the chamber and more of the cylinder if you get a chance.

Bummer...but fixable if the cylinder is ok like others have said.

J.

 

I haven't walked back into the garage since last night. In fact, I haven't even pulled the passenger head yet.

I think the valves are ok, but there seems to be a scoop out of the cylinder wall about 180* from the missing piece.

Not like catch a fingernail, more like glide your finger across it and feel a wide, smooth low spot.

So block replacement?

Head pics (driver side, #7 is at far right, well oiled):

 

Cylinder pic:

 

It might come out with a .005" over-bore.

Any word on the warranty possibilities?

 

I haven't inquired, although the seller only warrants for 6 mos and it has been about 8.

I need to determine if there is any way that I am responsible before looking to the seller. I thought the engine sounded funny from the moment I started it.

On the previous page I posted a video link. Does that sound like detonation? Because that is the sound I've been chasing all along.

I don't want to get screwed, but I also don't want to lay blame or discredit a reputable seller if it's possible I did something wrong.

Are there any possible causes for this other than detonation? I've only put about 25 miles on this thing, is there any way to determine how fresh the wound is?

Thanks to everyone for reading.

 

In this pic you can also glimpse the damage to the cylinder wall, directly opposite the piston damage, right in line with the glare from the flash:




And from a different angle, it's almost invisible. I use pics like this to tell myself it won't be so bad...

 

Get a bore gauge and find out how deep the score is

No way that cyl wall damage is fresh. Lots of miles have smoothed the edges down. Fresh would be sharp still, plus the chips on the piston have carbon build up. Takes a little while for that to build back up

 

 

no, I didn't miss it. I've never torn down an LS series engine, so I had no idea that it was necessary to remove the heads to do lifters.

 

Couple more questions:

1. Could the damaged piston (as shown above) be the cause of the knocking sound heard in the video I posted (previous page)?
2. What causes the top of a piston to turn almost white on the edges as seen on my #6 (below)?
   
   

 

1) Yes.
2) Usually water. Think "steam cleaning".

 

What would be the source of water? The head gasket looks fine. Is there something else I should be looking for?

 

Derren I would be getting my money back asap or an exchange for another LS1. If these guys are as reputable as you say they are then they will understand.

 

Thanks 89rs, you're right. I finally took a few minutes, gave them a call and laid out the facts (backed up with an email and pics).

So far they are being great, they may swap out the short block for me. I hesitate to mention their name because even an honest mistake can be misinterpreted and damage reputations.

However, if these guys come through and this has a happy ending, I'll certainly give them a mention when this is all over with.

Thanks all for reading.

 

I kept seeing your thread come up in the new posts section but never looked into it. Finally gave in and it was a good read. Lots of great information from everyone. Glad to see your story go from bad to good and everything worked out.

 

Get the heads checked out in the meantime. Hate to see it all go back together again and have a nicked valve seat or similar

 

Thanks Pocket, I was just thinking about that. From what I can see, it looks fine, but behind the valve I assume there could be some damage. I'll have to look into that.

 

glad to hear they are going to try to do something for you, even though you're out of the warranty period. we'll see how they pull through, but it sounds like they're a stand up company so far. pm me with their name and maybe a webpage cause i'm constantly looking for these ls series engines for different projects.

 

Looks like the previous owner got a little overzealous with the N2O

I hate to see problems like this, hope everything works out for you.

 

I'm about to pull the motor/trans as an assembly. The heads are off.

Is safe to use the head mounting bolt locations in the block for hoisting?

 

I'd be concerned about nicking the head mating surface.

 

Use the shortest headbolts you've got but yes you can lift it that way safely

 

Thanks guys. Yeah, I'll be careful with the mating surfaces.

Someday it's just gotta run.

 

If it bothers you, slip some cardboard under the chains but once you apply any pressure from the crane, the chains will never touch the head surface. Besides, why does it matter? Seller is just going to scrap it

 

If you have access to some copper or brass washers, you can stick those between the lifting eyes and the deck. I use them at work all the time. Heck, any type of washer between the eyes and the block would be fine as long as they are snugg.

 

I haven't taken the valve out, but I have some photos of the exhaust valve on my damaged #7 cylinder. The edge has extra carbon or something but only in the area toward the back right side in these pics. It has a differently colored chord right next to the shiny area on the back wall:

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_4633.jpg



http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_4635.jpg


http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_4637.jpg


http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_4641.jpg


http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_4643.jpg


http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_4648.jpg


Is this valve damaged? It looks fine on the other side. Can I ignore that slight irregularity if the steel all appears to be solid?

 

Hang on, instead of doing everything on the cheap, I went ahead and got a valvespring compressor to do this right.

Well, Autozone loans 'em for free, so I guess I'm still doing it on the cheap...

The valve with discolored area on the right. Looks ok to me:


And the valve seat as is (I didn't wipe off any oil or dirt or anything yet):





I think it all looks good. I'm thinking there was some carbon knocked off the exhaust port on the back side and maybe this affected how the gases flowed through the port and caused the disproportionate distribution of gases as the valve closed causing the discoloration to only a portion of the valve.

And I think the piston in #7 was contacting the head in the squash zone as they both have similar patterns and at TDC the piston sticks up just a scadge over the deck on that side of the cylinder. It was only sticking up about the thickness of the head gasket, but I still think this may have been making light contact causing the noise. Possible?

 

the pistons are installed at positive deck height in these motors, not "in the hole" like a regular small block. put the valve back in the heads, fill the exhaust port with water and see if it leaks out around the valve any. if not, your good.

 

I see a lot of guys on here that tear engines apart enthusiastically. When I bought this dropout with fewer than 27k miles, the idea was not to touch a single bolt on the engine or trans, just bolt it in and let her fly.

That's why I've been opening things up as little as possible, one piece at a time. Well, now I see the clutch and flywheel. I thought the clutch felt a little rough.

Does this look about normal for an '02 bird with 26,600 miles?

 

LSx engines with flat tops use pop-up pistons. I got into an argument with an engine builder who didnt think .050" above deck height was considered pop-up

Also, use paint thinner or gasoline for the valve test. Water wont flow as readily into the tiny cracks and crevices

You pay extra for a low mileage engine for peace of mind. Thats why the price tag is higher. Also why complete units are more sought after than basket cases

Yeah, looks like the kid that crashed it learned to drive a stick on it. Your bearings suggest a low mileage engine. The piston damage suggests DIY tuning with lots of beating the stuffing out of it. Clutch suggests he didnt know how to drive a stick properly. Flywheel is too clean to be original. PO likely burned up atleast one

 

Is there any reason not to go back with stock GM parts on the clutch/flywheel/pressure plate?

I don't want to spend another weekend doing research. I'm not modding this thing, just wanted a stock dropout for a DD.

Opinions?

 

Yeah, I paid handsomely for the peace of mind that hasn't materialized. And I'm playing catch up on the tech end because because I had banked on not having to tear into any part of this engine/trans.

Is there any reason not to go back with stock GM parts for the clutch/flywheel/pressure plate? I'm not modding this thing. I just wanted a reliable unit for a DD.

Opinions?

 

i see no issues going back with original equipment for the clutch/flywheel.

 

Lay a strait edge across the PP and flywheel surfaces. If they're flat, grab a new clutch disk and use the old stuff. If you're replacing the stuff, OEM will suit you just fine

 

When I read this I felt I had to throw my .02 out here. My purchase experience with a low mileage unit has taught me that low mileage "peace of mind" is an illusion. A year ago I bought an '06 GTO LS2/M12 dropout with "only" 15k miles on it. I was real smug in that I was getting something I could pretty much just do the needed swap interface procedures and purchases to and swap it into my car. The transmission looked a little suspicious though with some heavy red waxy greasy stuff at on the cases at the section mating surfaces in addition to what I believed was the OEM black sealer. I took the tranny to tranny specialist that used to work at LMR. He took one look at it when I dropped it off and said "It's been apart at least twice." Hmmm!!! A couple of weeks later he presented me with a box of the old parts replaced and the bill. The sight of the latter was almost as painful as the sight of carnage in the parts box. Just about every synchronizer was trashed and almost all blockers and friction rings were burned up with blue/orange heat check discoloration all over them. Several gears had to be replaced as they were missing large chunks of teeth. The teeth chunks were not inside the tranny as he explained how it had happened by whomever had done the previous rebuilds had used the wrong type of pullers on the gears.

I paid him, loaded up the transmission, and drove home now with much less confidence in the engine assy sitting in my garage. I had not planned on removing the clutch assy previously as it was in very clean rust free condition and I was previously thinking at 15k it's only just seated and broke in. Wrong! When I got the clutch apart the flywheel and pp were trashed. They had large heat checked metal smears and surface cracks everywhere. The disc was just a few thousandths of an inch away from the rivets contacting the flywheel or pp.

Previously talking with my transmission man he said he felt the damage he found was a combination of a driver that thought he was a hot shot racer but had very little manual transmission experience and unqualified mechanics that should have never been allowed to work on the it.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that my new mantra now is to inspect everything even if it is not suspicious. If I (you) did not own and use it since day one from the factory there is no telling how many surprises might be awaiting.

M

 

Your clutch parts look very similar to what my 55k parts (what I was told - never saw the donor car) looked like. I had already gotten the sdparts.com LS7 clutch kit when I took it apart. I have never driven an LS1 f-body clutch, but I can say this LS7 clutch is the sweetest I've ever driven (going back to my experience with '52 Chevy farm truck, '57 Chevy Bel Air, '60 Chevy pickup, '60 GMC farm truck, '65 GMC pickup, '76 Vega, '77 Skyhawk, '80 Fairmont, etc. - guess I should also include M151A2 jeep, 2-1/2, 5, and 10-ton Army trucks).

 

Block just left this afternoon, heading across the country for either a hone or new block. I think I'd feel better with the new block, but obviously a hone and new piston could work out fine if everything is done right.

Prolly got 3 weeks until I see my short block again. Plenty of time to get my clutch issue worked out.

Thanks for reading and thanks for the input five7!

 

Good lord! I think someone was a bit abusive with the clutch! Heck, with the whole car!

 

Yeah, you always hope it doesn't happen to you. But this time it did.

I will definitely let everyone know how it all turns out. So far the seller is being very helpful about repairing it, but I found out this week that their support is only going to include shipping one way--I have to pay to ship my short block across the US (west coast to east coast).

I didn't mind shipping it out here when I thought a 27k mile motor was worth it. But now that it's a lemon, it's going to really hurt to deal with this issue across the entire continental US.

Thanks for reading!

 

fyi number 7 is the lean cylinder. you other piston looked lean as well not coolant cleaning it.

 

Ok, well that makes sense. Thanks tpi.

At least we've narrowed down some things about the engine's history. The lean condition was probably the culprit for my engine's woes. And probably happened because the previous owner was hard on his toys.

It all makes sense now. The block VIN may not match because he replaced the engine once already, probably under warranty. And just because a motor has low miles doesn't mean someone hasn't done their best to beat the hell out of it!

 

thats true.. i hate to blame nitrous but like others have said it may have been the reason it ran lean

lots of good info on ls1tech regarding this and a few builders have backed this up

 

Well I shipped the motor back to the seller so they could work on it. However, the seller says they don't cover shipping. They will be nice guys and ship back to me if I get it to them.

Well, I'm out over $460 bucks shipping a short block across the US. I used the shipper they recommended, but I didn't get a price quote before it left. A couple days later the shipper calls and says "you know it's going to be $2300 to ship this..." Well, after much grief they gave me the rate they give my seller and got it down to $462. Lucky me.

 

The block got to Pennsylvania last week. After looking at the engine, they sent me this message:

"This was undoubtedly a near new engine. Has NO vin stamp meaning it was likely a new gm block installed. Looks like the previous owner may have had a weak antifreeze mix, causing the water jacket to split and allowing water into the cylinder. This caused the damage you saw. It was all internal and wouldn't have been seen prior to your install. "

I asked if the block would need to be replaced and I was told:

"No. LS1's are sleeved blocks. The machinist simply replaces the sleeve. "

Is this a reliable fix?

 

from what i'm to understand, replacing a sleeve is a LOT of work, but if the guy knows what he's doing then it should be reliable.

 

Should find out what sort've warranty you may or may not have after the sleeve replacement.

 

Having a cyl sleeved is more expensive than getting a new block from GM. If it were an aftermarket block, sleeve it, OEM, replace

Anyways, Im not buying the faulty coolant theory of theirs. Coolant in the cyl will NOT cause a ringland to break like that. I do belive the fractured piece may have jammed against the cyl wall fracturing the sleeve or maybe a smaller piece got cause beside the piston and scored the wall enough that it eventually cracked from continued abuse

Either way the seller knows you didnt cause the damage and shouldnt be giving you a hard time replacing the engine under warranty

 

I'm told my short block with new sleeve left PA yesterday. The seller threw in a used flywheel. I guess I get to eat the expense of the pressure plate.

If I buy a new pressure plate and clutch, what steps must I take to make the flywheel operational?

Does a used flywheel need balanced? Does it need a grind before I install a new clutch disc?

Am I better off replacing the flywheel anyway at this point?

Yeah... I'm getting hosed.

 

Should not need to be balanced. It should be resurfaced, though.

But, keep reading.

Yes. Cut your losses. Then upgrade. http://sdparts.com/details/scoggin-d...center/sdls7ck