FlyHiFlyLo

Include me in on that deal. Urrrrg... I got a new bullet in Austin... One bad mo fo and the LeMons judges approved the transplant so it's off to Sonoma next.

FlyHiFlyLo

Just to get an idea of Lemons vs CMC what is your best lap time at TWS?

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

Sorry to hear that! I've crewed for a few LeMons teams and only had one with a game ending engine problem (rotary).

My best time at TWS Counterclockwise is a 2:03.0, CMC record I think is a 1:59.2
Clockwise, mine is a 2:00.7, CMC record I think is a 1:58.9

FlyHiFlyLo

Best lap of the Lemons race was 2:06.5. (lexas LS Coupe) We ran a best of 2:09.0

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

Yay! I'm faster than $500 cars!

Those are actually pretty good times. The first LeMons (MSR-H) I crewed for, the team got 2nd in a third gen. By no means were they the fastest, but they made a lot of consistent laps and stayed out of trouble, big keys to enduro racing.
http://www.witchdoctormotorsports.com/ch128.htm
The winning car was old toyota carolla, driven by a bunch of Texas AI/CMC guys, Team Schwing

Speaking of CMC , at the end of the year (2010), we all got together for our annual awards banquet. I got my 2nd place plaque and Ironman award for starting every race in 2010 (I've actually started every race since my first one in 2008). Nick got Rookie of the Year for CMC and Wade got Rookie of the Year for CMC2. Also, making it's debut was the 2010 Year in Review video one of the guys put together. Enjoy.

http://vimeo.com/16824546

V6canvas

iTrader: (1)

Very cool build/stories! I would definitely like to get some on track time. Probably never go all out racing, but as close as I can

obeymybird

iTrader: (4)

what spring an shock combo you running?

FlyHiFlyLo

Awesome stuff.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

man I wish I could do this,... maybe when I finally manage to get through college I will be able to.

Sucks that my sfc's are pinch welded along their length. So I have to either grind those off or my car is permanently illegal for competition use in the CMC?

I also am curious as to what springs you've ended up running.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

Shocks & struts are Koni Yellow DA from the b4c that the previous ower put on there for autocrossing. I really should have them revalved to match the springs. I'll get around to it one day, sooner if I get a sponsor.

Springs are 1000lb front, I think 10". Stock car springs work great and come in plenty of options. Rear are 200lb. For the fronts, the 10" was a little low, so I added a spacer I ended up modifying. It works, but I think I want to lower it back down 1/2" or so, so I had a guy fab up some thinner steel spacers. Maybe one day I'll find some time and someone's scales to corner balance it. Car is pretty netural with these rates. Once I get my laptimes consistent, then I'll consider making changes. It's right there in the ballpark tho. 900-1200/175-225 is what I've heard the other guys running.



For the SFCs, you'll have to grind them off or something. I don't see them changing that rule anytime soon. You may want to try contact the director of the region you want to run and see if you can get a waiver. If they're trying to build the class in that region, you will have a better shot at them okaying it if it's not something easily resolvable.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

Couldn't sit around and bask in the glory of my 2nd place in the standings. I had to start the ball rolling on my jump to CMC2. CMC is a dying class and I had bet most everyone would be running CMC2 in 2011 with the merger back into one class coming very soon.

CMC2 allows 275s on 17x9.5's (max), 4pot brakes, 260hp/310ft*lbs, and wings. The biggest difference between the two classes is the hp. The other stuff is marginal in terms of laptimes. The nice thing (depending on who you talk to) is they opened up a few different avenues for the third gens (and some for the Ford guys too). 305 TPI w/ vortec heads and edelbrock base, 305 or 350 carb'd with votec heads and edelbrock intake, or LT1. Yeah, I'm going to stick with fuel injection, and the LT1 over the 305 just makes more sense in not stressing an engine over what it's designed to do. The more modified something is, usually the more it breaks. And aluminum heads? No brainer. Well, the LT1 was sitting in the corner of the garage by this point from that unglodly wrecked 4th gen.

I made a rough schedule/timetable for me to get it all done. The first race of 2011 was Jan 30th. This was the end of October. Big holidays, work, and not wanting anything to be rushed, easily doable if everything goes right.

Yeah, I'm a dork, but the last thing I wanted was to forget to order something or be waiting for that part to come in etc. This should have me 'done' by January to give a buffer for gremlins and to get it dyno'd. My biggest concern was wiring, but I'll deal with that when the time comes. Besides, TGO's got my back!



Getting started on some body work and The Quickening.


The dents to the door were able to be hammered out. I'd get a new fender or use a spare I have in storage. The rest of the tire marks would buff out, and the paint from Dave's car was mostly on the stickers, which I can replace.

I wanted to stick with the T5 over the T56. I don't really use 5th gear (much) and definetly wouldn't use a 6th gear. T5 is much lighter, and if they can use them behind SCCA American Sedan 350-400hp engines, I should be able to make it live behind 260hp.

I did want to go ahead and take the time to go thru it and make sure there was nothing showing wear, throw in new syncros and the support plate. Time's a tickin'


Trans is out!

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Good luck with the T5. I have a feeling it will survive just fine. Besides they're common, if it breaks you can just get another one for a song or two anyway.

Still sucks trying to be gentle. But those LT1 T56's are getting up there in the years by now too. Mine is from 94, so it's 18 years old without a rebuild... T56's aren't magic, they're gonna all start breaking at some point too Im sure, even if it's more from age than power levels.

Mine makes some awful noises, but it's still hanging on.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You got any more pics of your louver hood? Of the louvers themselves and how the underside of the hood ended up looking? I'd like to copy it.

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

Subscribing.

tjl IROC

Subscribing
nice

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

A good way of geting heat out of the engine bay...







I hate that the plastic is 20+ years old. I've broken off a few of the plastic studs, so I try not to R&R the louvers unless I have to. You can see how I only opened up the back 1/2 of the louvers.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

The LT1 swap was going to have it's challenges like any engine swap, but I had a lot going for me. The block is essentially the same, which is huge. This means I'll be able to use the same engine mounts, the same canton oil pan and pickup, and the same bellhousing for the T5.


(L) LT1 flywheel (R) TPI flywheel

The clutch and flywheel was somewhat questionable. Initial thought was I had to use the TPI stuff since I was using the T5 bellhousing, so it should bolt up, right? Both the TPI and LT1 engines are externally balanced, but there was some uncertaintly (and very few posts here) to be comforatble that the flywheels had the same imbalance. Something I'll have to get checked out.

With both flywheels and pressure plates, I took the opportunity to take some weights on my bathroom scale. As you can see from the pictures above, the TPI flywheel I've been using is the factory lightweight flywheel.

LT1 fw 20.4 lbs
TPI fw 15.4 lbs
LT1 pp 19.4 lbs
TPI pp 21.6 lbs

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

I've never torn into a T5 (or any trans), but Wade has rebuilt a few. Nick had a trans or two to go thru, I had my WC T5 and the nonWC (my spare) that originally came with Knocker to go thru. Nothing wrong with either of mine, just wanted to freshen them both up. So we arranged a date to get together and have a tranny party. Plan was to tear them down, find out what parts were needed, order those, and get back together later to reassemble.

I went to my old workplace in Bryan and dropped off the LT1 and TPI flywheels to get resurfaced and to have them match the imbalance of the LT1 to the TPI flyweel. Also ordered some new LT1 valve springs, valve seals and gaskets.

At Wades, we had some work to do before we could get started on the transeses. Rob had sold what was left of the chassis to Wade. I don't remember the details, but I think Wade got the cage to build Tilton's future fox and Wade agreed to cut it out for him. We cut the body away from the cage and lifted it out.

noboostnogo

iTrader: (4)

interesting build and good job!!


please excuse my ignorance, maybe i missed it but what is that valve for? is that your e-brake/line lock?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

no no no no no

its for rear brake bias. You dont use hydraulic pressure for a parking brake, and a line lock goes in the front brakes

noboostnogo

iTrader: (4)

<- NEWB mmhmm idk why i thought it could've been a manual pressure lock for the rear kind of like a line lock for the front but to keep the rear brakes locked like a e brake... i guess i overlooked the fact that it would be useless to do that LOL

kmcn47

i have to be honest, i've followed knocker for the length of this thread and i liked it better read, but its your car and you had it painted anyways goodluck in CMC2 also is that tpi stock?

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

Yup, what he said, rear brake bias. Helps with rear lockup especially in the rain. Also helps, but doesn't eliminate, axle hop. The guys at Lucas gave me a part number for a pressure delay type thing. I never got around to really researching it. They said this would practically eliminate axle hop by allowing the front brakes to 'hit' first, get the weight transfer to the nose then engage the rears or something like that.

TPI was internally stock, with new valve springs and oil pump. Had the AIR ports blocked off and the delete pulleys, but otherwise bone stock. All 180k+ miles of it. Even had to replace the MSD Blaster coil with a OEM replacement coil per the rules.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

We roped a friend (Tilton) to come help and give him a hard time about taking so long to build a CMC car. We had 4 trans so Nick, Wade, Tilton, and myself each took one. Under the instruction of Wade, tore into them.

Wade had borrowed some tables from his work, and we threw on a bit of plywood on top.




So that's what was grinding in one of Nick's T5s




My WC looked good, even after a few seasons of racing. My spare had some pitting on the main shaft. Nick's would require a new mainshaft for one, tho his other looked ok.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I apologize if I missed it, but I was wondering if you were doing anything about oil control? Road race pan? Accusump? Is that kind of thing even legal for you?

I've been reading horror stories about it and Im wanting to push my car in that direction. I want to get into autocross until after college, at which point I will hopefully end up doing something like CMC. But at this point I cant afford to lose a bearing autocrossing it.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/road-racin...ccusump-1.html



I figure it's probably something I shouldn't be too worried about, but still.

Aardvark

In our CMC car, we added the road race pan (only one model is legal for CMC). We have an accusump, never plumbed it in as we've never seen big problems with oil pressure. I think I've seen our pressure drop a couple times in a particularly tight 135' left turn, but the idiot light might have only come on ONCE in a season of racing it.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

Like Eric said, we can only use the Canton 244T. When I first built up Knocker for CMC, you had the choice of the pan, accusump, or neither. They changed the rule ~2010 to all both as another option. Knowing that sbc's can survive on stupid low oil pressure, I just stuck with the pan only as well.



From what I've gathered, the LS1 is a lot more prone to oil starvation that the regular sbc and LT1s. For autocross, I don't think you're generating the lateral G's (unless you're building a full on CP car) for a sustained length of time to even worry about it. In AX, you're in a 'long' sweeper for two or three seconds as opposed to a good seven plus you might see on a road course.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

Nick's WC was going to cost too much, so that was set aside and I decided to hold off of my spare til I could find a better main shaft. Nick found another trans that has a recent rebuild on craigslist, so that would become his primary and we'd rebuild his/our spare. We ordered the parts from Astro Performance for the two we would rebuild. Also ordered the reinforced cluster plate to help strengthen up whatever I could. We elected not to upgrade to the road race 5th gear, again due to cost. Plan was to get back together at Wade's on the 14th for part two of the tranny party and to pick up the flywheels and stuff I ordered from Vilas.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

I find it easier to remove/install the engines when the front bumper is off. With the bumper on, my hoist just baaaarely reaches the center of the engine. Figured this would also be a good time to properly repair and redo my air box that I was so proud of. I know it could be much worse, but it still saddens me to see it all bent up like that.





I still like that the air box comes off with the bumper all as one piece.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

May as well get something done while we're waiting on the T5 parts to come in, so I went ahead and pulled out the tired 305. It has lived quite a life so far: TxDPS, autocross, roadracing. I kept practically all of the wiring harness attached when I removed it. In the plan was to repaint the engine bay, which would be dependant on the weather, and it not being too cold outside because I'm a wuss.

V6canvas

iTrader: (1)

Your parts are showing.

Great thread, awesome to see the progression of the car through good and bad.

FlyHiFlyLo

Good stuff!

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

Once it was out, I removed the oil pan, pump and drive, starter and oil cooler from the LB9 to get them ready to transfer to the LT1. Also took the time to test fit my new fender from Certifit (that Nick had hand delivered to me) and roll the lip with the trust BFH.

On the TPI, since I had retained the EGR (didn't really affect WOT performance), I was able to keep use of the check engine light. I wanted to do the same for the LT1. A few things would have to be done to trick the pcm to not throw a code since reprogramming isn't allowed. One was the rear O2's, which I could try find sims for, which are apparently becoming more and more scarce. Check. Another was the fans, which I could rewire. Check. Another was the VSS. A little more involved, but there were a few posts here on TGO about using a 4th gen V6 T5 tail housing. Check. The last thing was the AIR pump. This was what killed the whole idea. Asides from leaving it functional, there was no straight forward way to bypass the system check without reprogramming. Damn. If one thing set a constant CEL, there was no point doing any other the others.

The next weekend it was back to Wade's for part two of the tranny party. No need to source a V6 T5, so both mine and Nick's T5s went back together with no issues. Also picked up my flywheels and parts for the LT1 from Vilas.

Later, went to drop off the fender to Maaco to get painted. I took it to a shop closer to my house and gave the guys the old invoice. Once they started looking thru their book to find a match to the colors, I knew something was up. I pointed out that the codes were on the invoice. They said, yeah, but Chuck uses Dupont. Hmmm. Took back my fender, and drove over to Chuck's Maaco to have him shoot it to match the original. He quoted me a price lower than the other shop to boot.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

The engine bay had seen better days. The early goings had issues with the water boiling out the overflow container, me spilling brake fluid by the reservoir, and the general oil leaks.



It was looking pretty nasty. It was time to hose it down and soak it with some Simply Green. A new(er) engine deserves a clean engine bay, right?

FlyHiFlyLo

What pan and pump are you using?

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

somethings missing but i cant quite put my finger on it

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

See post #177 and #29 for the pictures, Canton 15-244T. The pump is a stock melling high volume pump M55HV, but it has the Canton pickup tack welded to it, and since it still looked good and I'm lazy, I decided to reuse it.

I'm guessing Tyler noticed the "C" from cmc is missing Started to take that off to see if it would take the paint off with it... yup, just a bit.

The following week (December) the weather was still nice enough to paint. Yay for living in Texas

Didn't need to be perfect, tho I did use a gloss white this time around. Finally got the blower blockoff panels painted. Turned out not half bad.

Had to try hide it with the trucks while it was drying. Gotta keep those HOA spies happy.








The LT1's have a known issue with the power steering pump when roadracing. They just don't like the constant high RPM's, and usually end up puking fluid. Most people go with a Turn One pump. A few of the CMC guys around DFW found a local shop, PSC Motorsports that mainly does work on offroad trucks. They approached the owner with the need to reduce the flow in the LT1 pumps. For about $100 for parts and labor, the same magic is done similar to Turn One. A number of guys in our region have gone this route with good results, so I shipped off my p/s pump to PSC as well.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

thats what it mustve been =). doing a good job bud

kmcn47

loving it, would love to build my car up to look like a racecar, but still retain all four seats, driveability and all that, also the L69 which i love saying, and no not because it sounds dirty

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Is there a reason no one goes to manual steering? I figured at speed it wouldn't be that much different than power steering. I could see it being a huge detriment for autocross, but I figured for track racing it might be preferable. Is that definitely not the case? Is it a steering ratio thing or just the lack of power assist?

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

id think at the speeds your getting to on a track car the manual steering is going to act te same way as power steering without the drag on the engine.

FlyHiFlyLo

Power Steering is a must...

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

It's more of a rules thing, for CMC anyways. It's my understanding that all the eligible models for CMC came with power steering and power brakes. In another effort to keep costs down, they make everyone keep those, so everyone is 'punished' the same. There's been suggestions for changing this, but it keeps getting shot down.

I'm pretty sure SCCA's American Sedan class and NASA's American Iron class allow going to manual brakes and steering. Both p/s and p/b are supposed to have a more consistant feel since the assist won't vary with RPM's (I think this affects p/b more than p/s). And there's always the factor of less power robbed, one less thing to leak or break, less weight etc.

Roadracing without power steering is very possible. The Lemons team I crewed for had manual steering, I think from an S-10? I think you really need a complete setup for it to work properly. I don't think you can simply plug the box and expect good results.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

After picking up and installing the newly painted fender, Knocker was now ready to receive the LT1. I now needed to get the LT1 ready to go into Knocker. I started by vacuuming and blowing years of dirt and leaves from around the intake manifold.

Looking at the engine, it was obvious the driver’s side LT1 exhaust manifold flange isn't exactly normal. The driver’s side flange was obviously unique, and I had kept the portion of the pipe that bolted to that part. I guess when it was on the donor car, the passenger side appeared to me to be a standardish flange and I had let it go away with the car. Unfortunately, it's not symmetrical on the passenger side either. Crap. Time to start spamming message boards to see if anyone has the first few inches of the y-pipe laying around. Like so many things CMC, the stock parts are things that normal people find have no value and simply toss in the trash. LT1 in a third gen? Who in their right mind would keep the stock manifolds and not simply throw on some headers.



Next thing was to remove the 4th gen engine mounts and bolt on the 3rd gen mounts. The driver’s side 4G mount was torn. Remember the shape of the donor car? The transmission mount got buckled from the impact. Even so, I wasn't too concerned since the 3G mounts use the forward 3 bolt holes in the block as opposed to the rearward 3 holes that the 4G uses. And then I removed the mounts...



Crap. Hadn’t planned on that. Fortunately, there were still a good number of threads left in the block, and the broken piece was still there, like a piece to a jigsaw puzzle. Since it was a 'paired' bolt hole, I felt comfortable using some JB weld to sandwich the puzzle back together. Worse case, it's acting as a big washer between the mount and the block.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

With the mount issue out of the way, I went ahead and installed fresh valve springs and seals. I rented an air compressor last time I did this on the TPI. This time, I went and bought one from TSC. It's always nice to have a good excuse to buy new tools. Yup, since I moved away from B/CS, I've been building the car without using air tools. Kinda stubbornly proud of that.



To my delight, the top of the heads looked in fairly good condition. No Pennzoil sludge used on this one.



LT1 windage tray removed, Canton oil pan, pump/pickup, new v/c gaskets installed.



Installed new plugs and wires too. Also installed a USA made (from Jennings Chevrolet) a/c delete pulley after hearing that the cheaper knockoffs tend to have the bearings fail.

I knew by reading on TGO that it was possible to use a third gen radiator with the LT1, it's just a matter of getting all the ports matched up somehow. I felt fine to continue to use the stock b4c radiator since I always take a spare anyways, but would have to keep an eye on temps to see if it would later warrant an Afco radiator.

kmcn47

lookin good, i'd paint the engine though, just a little personal touch, maybe do the intake and valve covers white to complement the white engine bay? just an idea

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

What diameter springs should we be looking at for our fronts? 5 or 5.5"? I get a little lost when it comes to picking a springrate and the height... Im guessing that's uncompressed height? I have a hard time figuring out how to estimate the final ride height. So if I didn't want to run 1000 lb springs, maybe closer to 800, I'd have to get even taller springs right? Around 11 or 12 inches tall I guess.

I seem to see that 5:1 ratio of front to rear rates pretty often.

GMan 3MT

iTrader: (4)

For the fronts, it's a single pigtail 5.5". Length is measured uncompressed. The first set I had was actually 9.5" (went out just now and measured them on the shelf), pretty darn low when installed. I now have 11" tall with a the spacer and I think it could be a bit lower. I may try the 9.5" with the 1" spacer or the 11" with some thinner spacers I had fabbed up.

I think the way to do it is get a shorter spring and use spacers to get the ride height you want or go longer and cut down the pring til the desired ride height is reached. The latter method of course will alter the rate slightly. I know what you mean about trying to figure out what height to buy. Not sure how much the difference between 800lb and 1000lb of a same uncompressed height will make in ride height. I think it would be marginal, for sure less than .25". Fortunately, the circle track springs are nice and cheap.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

No updates? Race season should be here by now, right?

V6canvas

iTrader: (1)

he's only got to December of 2010, in the story, still gotta catch up to the present!