We may not be so lame after all. ..
Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
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From: So cal, OC and Nor cal Vacaville
Car: 89 TA
Engine: looking for upgrade.
Transmission: swap or beefup
Re: WE ARE LAME...
Whats wrong with your vert?
Mine is doing great.
Just got to get some money an get her looking beautiful.
Mine is doing great.
Just got to get some money an get her looking beautiful.
Supreme Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,211
Likes: 1
From: SLO County, CA.
Car: '88 Camaro
Engine: 5.7 L98
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Borg Warner 9 bolt w/3.27 lim. slip
Re: WE ARE LAME...
I can make the 1.5 hour drive to Famoso, just won't drag it down the strip.
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento, CA
Car: 1991 Z28 Convertible
Engine: 305
Transmission: 5 Speed
Re: WE ARE LAME...
Not sure exactly, no fuel and no spark. Could be a ground etc. I'm in escrow on a house with a shop and will probably drop the gas tank and put in a new pump, then work on spark. But I won't do anything till I move. Could be something different, but its probably time for a new fuel pump anyway.
Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
From: So cal, OC and Nor cal Vacaville
Car: 89 TA
Engine: looking for upgrade.
Transmission: swap or beefup
Re: WE ARE LAME...
I see. I had problems with no spark. last two times was distributor. One wire was not connected correctly. an the module was bad.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,529
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From: Fairhope, AL
Car: 89RS(other cars & pics in vBgarage)
Engine: LO3, 305 TBI Mildly Modified
Transmission: BakerBuilt 700R4 w/B&M Megashifter
Axle/Gears: 3.23 Auburn Pro Series LSD
Re: WE ARE LAME...
dont fell so bad, im the AL/FL presy of origianl gulf coast third gens.....we have been dead lately to 20 some member and our personal web site has about 4 people posting, and somewhat ok turn outs for meets, of we have our normal 5 100%ers come out, average 8-10 members with about 6 cars on average, (not all members have a road worthy car yet) hope you enjoy some of the pics of our meets...............any suggestions on how to get more members would be nice, i even have a club banner, club business cards (put on 3rd gens we see), and t-shirts with our club name



this is just a few of our meets, we been a group for a little over a year have 1 meet every month
good luck guys
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ohh yea i forgot to ask, aprox how many member do yall have and what kind of turn outs to you have
also what your age range we have from 19-60 something with our average age being high 20's to low 30's id say



this is just a few of our meets, we been a group for a little over a year have 1 meet every month
good luck guys
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ohh yea i forgot to ask, aprox how many member do yall have and what kind of turn outs to you have
also what your age range we have from 19-60 something with our average age being high 20's to low 30's id say
Last edited by 89RS_82Z; Dec 17, 2008 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Posts: 3,058
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From: 707
Car: '92 Z03
Engine: LSX
Transmission: M12
Re: WE ARE LAME...
If this is going to happen like usual, let's get an actual date / location set. Then we can watch everyone drop off like flies at the last minute
The last acutal meet where people showed was @ Marc's shop, sucks if you missed it, I know I had a blast and won some freebies.
Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,446
Likes: 0
From: Lake Forest,CA
Car: Cars
Engine: SB
Transmission: manual
Axle/Gears: 9bolt
Re: WE ARE LAME...
89RS_82Z I've been to that memorial with the tanks and airplanes. I think it was the Korean war memorial...not sure. Didn't that place get messed up really bad from Katrina.
I say we set a date for the March meet in Fomosa. I know Kevin is going. I'll be bringing my son. Thats a start.
I can plan on a Nojoqui Falls or something at JMillers. He's about 45min north of Nojoqui falls.
I say we set a date for the March meet in Fomosa. I know Kevin is going. I'll be bringing my son. Thats a start.
I can plan on a Nojoqui Falls or something at JMillers. He's about 45min north of Nojoqui falls.
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 10,950
Likes: 27
From: Orange, SoCal
Car: 1990 Pontiac Trans Am
Engine: 355 TPI siamesed runners
Transmission: Tremec T56
Axle/Gears: 12-Bolt 3.73
Re: WE ARE LAME...
What do you consider, South?
As I said, I'm willing to go as far as Paso Robles. That's about 5 hours north of me. I went thru Sacramento on the way to Reno last year, and I wont do that again. Next time I'm flying. 10 hours behind the wheel and I'm wasted.
As I said, I'm willing to go as far as Paso Robles. That's about 5 hours north of me. I went thru Sacramento on the way to Reno last year, and I wont do that again. Next time I'm flying. 10 hours behind the wheel and I'm wasted.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 1
From: Fairhope, AL
Car: 89RS(other cars & pics in vBgarage)
Engine: LO3, 305 TBI Mildly Modified
Transmission: BakerBuilt 700R4 w/B&M Megashifter
Axle/Gears: 3.23 Auburn Pro Series LSD
Re: WE ARE LAME...
we just parked there to get some pics made and cook out Supreme Member
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,446
Likes: 0
From: Lake Forest,CA
Car: Cars
Engine: SB
Transmission: manual
Axle/Gears: 9bolt
Re: WE ARE LAME...
Anyway it's a way cool place to have a GTG. nice picts.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,529
Likes: 1
From: Fairhope, AL
Car: 89RS(other cars & pics in vBgarage)
Engine: LO3, 305 TBI Mildly Modified
Transmission: BakerBuilt 700R4 w/B&M Megashifter
Axle/Gears: 3.23 Auburn Pro Series LSD
Re: WE ARE LAME...
small world huh???
hey if any of yall got good club ideas please post them for me, we are tring to get our members more active and actually get more members
glad yall like the pics
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,494
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From: Woodland, CA
Car: '02 Z06
Engine: L33 5.7
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: Stock IRS
Re: WE ARE LAME...
anywhere south of sac is south for me lol.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
From: The Sticks, Ca.
Car: '79 Camaro; '84 Z28
Engine: 350; none
Transmission: TH-350, 2500 stall; none
Axle/Gears: posi, 3.08; disc, 3.23
Re: WE ARE LAME...
I am good to meet up almost anywhere in Cali as long as there is enough notice for me to get my time off aranged. Winter GTGs will mean me driving my 4 wheel drive as I have some high elevation passes to clear to get where the rest of you are.
I've been building/driving/racing F-bodies since '96, and have tried numerous times to start local clubs with no success. The three F-bodies my wife and I own will never leave our possession as I have sold way too many in the past. This is my one true hobby; more my way of life, and I would love to see a Nor-Cal organization gain some solid strength. Consider me a concrete member and dedicated supporter!
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Man those are some sweet pics, I am going to put that park on my list of places to visit when I do my cross country road trip in a few years. I hope I will get the chance to meet up with some of you guys out there too!
I've been building/driving/racing F-bodies since '96, and have tried numerous times to start local clubs with no success. The three F-bodies my wife and I own will never leave our possession as I have sold way too many in the past. This is my one true hobby; more my way of life, and I would love to see a Nor-Cal organization gain some solid strength. Consider me a concrete member and dedicated supporter!
----------
Man those are some sweet pics, I am going to put that park on my list of places to visit when I do my cross country road trip in a few years. I hope I will get the chance to meet up with some of you guys out there too!
Last edited by fryer1979; Dec 21, 2008 at 03:43 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Supreme Member
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Posts: 2,529
Likes: 1
From: Fairhope, AL
Car: 89RS(other cars & pics in vBgarage)
Engine: LO3, 305 TBI Mildly Modified
Transmission: BakerBuilt 700R4 w/B&M Megashifter
Axle/Gears: 3.23 Auburn Pro Series LSD
Re: WE ARE LAME...
i got a friend that lives 30 miles east of fresno, near the mountians... any of you guys around that area??
Member
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 395
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From: Central Coast, CA
Car: 1987 IROC Z/28 Camaro
Engine: 355
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9 Bolt w/ 4.10s
Re: WE ARE LAME...
I'm always down to do something. Though right now the camaro is still in NC. I'm back in Cali for Christmas though. When I eventually take my road trip back, I'll start showin up more again. Gotta wait for the snow to melt.
The part of NC I'm at is Mustang town and there are some bad *** sounding 80s stangs. I have been getting challenged ALOT but the gf has been with me and thats a no go ha.
The part of NC I'm at is Mustang town and there are some bad *** sounding 80s stangs. I have been getting challenged ALOT but the gf has been with me and thats a no go ha.
Supreme Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,211
Likes: 1
From: SLO County, CA.
Car: '88 Camaro
Engine: 5.7 L98
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Borg Warner 9 bolt w/3.27 lim. slip
Re: WE ARE LAME...
I'm always down to do something. Though right now the Camaro is still in NC. I'm back in Cali for Christmas though. When I eventually take my road trip back, I'll start showin up more again. Gotta wait for the snow to melt.
The part of NC I'm at is Mustang town and there are some bad *** sounding 80s stangs. I have been getting challenged ALOT but the gf has been with me and thats a no go ha.
The part of NC I'm at is Mustang town and there are some bad *** sounding 80s stangs. I have been getting challenged ALOT but the gf has been with me and thats a no go ha.
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: Hanford, Ca
Car: 1989 Iroc Z T-Topin
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt
Re: WE ARE LAME...
any word on the meets? or in another forum? My irocs a pos but id love to go look at everyone else's for ideas and such.
Supreme Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,211
Likes: 1
From: SLO County, CA.
Car: '88 Camaro
Engine: 5.7 L98
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: Borg Warner 9 bolt w/3.27 lim. slip
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: Hanford, Ca
Car: 1989 Iroc Z T-Topin
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt
Re: WE ARE LAME...
I got a bunch of tune up parts for it. Im trying to get it stockish to figure out where my problems exist. I got the plugs wires n cap changed. sucks btw but i got them all from the top. Cleaned up the idle a bit.
I still have a problem when i put it to the floor. It wants to cut out and die, but then it takes off after its drama session. I got a fuel filter ill swap out this week. Changed air filters already.
But today is a strut/shock change pick up rims and take to pep boys day. Might take my rotors to get turned as well. Try to get it going for the meet jan 11th. Odo. says 70k, but i think im the first to wash it for the last 5 years.
idk. if filter dont work maybe you can help figure out my take off prob. I took Aviation Maintenance back in High school. So my car savoyness is limited to what i read and learn. Although..growing up ive had a bunch of older chevy pickups. I can def write a walkthrough guide on starters and shimming.
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: Hanford, Ca
Car: 1989 Iroc Z T-Topin
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt
Re: WE ARE LAME...
Nope. Not to that part yet. Nor do i have a timing light. Trying to figure out what is up with my right front first. Hopefully its just struts....and the excessively wide gangsta wheels in the front.
Guy told me he had a set of cam wheels and tires on them. $150. ill see how they ride. Might be my brakes. Ill update when i rip it apart. i just hope i can get my rotors ground and not have to replace right now. Moneys gonna get tight soon. Damn California and the DMV.
Guy told me he had a set of cam wheels and tires on them. $150. ill see how they ride. Might be my brakes. Ill update when i rip it apart. i just hope i can get my rotors ground and not have to replace right now. Moneys gonna get tight soon. Damn California and the DMV.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
From: The Sticks, Ca.
Car: '79 Camaro; '84 Z28
Engine: 350; none
Transmission: TH-350, 2500 stall; none
Axle/Gears: posi, 3.08; disc, 3.23
Re: WE ARE LAME...
Your fuel filter SHOULD clear that up. If not, try the Sea Foam through the vaccuum lines trick.
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: Hanford, Ca
Car: 1989 Iroc Z T-Topin
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt
Re: WE ARE LAME...
I bought the sea foam last night. I don't think I'm gonna run it through the brake assist yet. I am kind of nervous and i just changed plugs. But i will run in oil and fuel tho
Supreme Member
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,529
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From: Fairhope, AL
Car: 89RS(other cars & pics in vBgarage)
Engine: LO3, 305 TBI Mildly Modified
Transmission: BakerBuilt 700R4 w/B&M Megashifter
Axle/Gears: 3.23 Auburn Pro Series LSD
Re: WE ARE LAME...
if you run a can of seafoam in the oil, all it does is get rid of some of the gunk inside and it does a good job of that, but you will have to change your oil right
dont worry about running it through a vac line, it will smoke alot but it will clean the heck out of the valves and all
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 223
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From: Hanford, Ca
Car: 1989 Iroc Z T-Topin
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: Hanford, Ca
Car: 1989 Iroc Z T-Topin
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
From: The Sticks, Ca.
Car: '79 Camaro; '84 Z28
Engine: 350; none
Transmission: TH-350, 2500 stall; none
Axle/Gears: posi, 3.08; disc, 3.23
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
Quick tip for cleaning all of that sludge from your engine: Put about 1/4 quart of transmission fluid (Dexron III) into the oil and run it for about 1000 miles. Normal driving is fine, then do a normal oil change. Trans fluid is very high in detergents, and this small of an ammount won't effect the protection of your oil. This is an old school trick, and I have been doing it with every single car I get, I have even been able to bring old tired ticking lifters back to life. If you really aren't comfortable doing this you can purchase oil detergents from your parts stores, but they are not as strong as the ATF. NEVER use Penzoil. Castrol has the highest detergent content.
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Posts: 2,529
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From: Fairhope, AL
Car: 89RS(other cars & pics in vBgarage)
Engine: LO3, 305 TBI Mildly Modified
Transmission: BakerBuilt 700R4 w/B&M Megashifter
Axle/Gears: 3.23 Auburn Pro Series LSD
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
lol never us penzoil or quaker mistake......my camaros original/previous owner used quaker mistake, and it took me forever to get hat crud out of my motor, and it has right at 100k on it
i put a little diesel in mine (oil) for a few minutes for every oil change (3 months) for a year then used some seafoam can cleared almost all the crud out, its pretty clean now 7 years and 40k miles later.....but i forgot all about the trans fluid in the oil trick, i always remembered the ATF in a vac line to lube the uppers in the valves and to clean them (mainly because of the smoke screen it made
)but i agree castrol motors look the best inside when tore down
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
From: The Sticks, Ca.
Car: '79 Camaro; '84 Z28
Engine: 350; none
Transmission: TH-350, 2500 stall; none
Axle/Gears: posi, 3.08; disc, 3.23
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
It may or may not surprise you that both Quakerstate and Penzoil are the same company. They also have one of the generic brands, but I cannot for the life of me remember what it is. I know people say all the time that penzoil as a company quit using the old perafin (sp?) wax based formula, but man I've never seen so much sludge as the engine run on the Quakerstate/Penzoil oils. They make an engine with 100K on it look like 400K plus 10 years exposed in a muddy field. Castrol or nothing for me.
Last edited by fryer1979; Jan 4, 2009 at 09:45 PM.
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From: Sacramento Ca
Car: 91 Pontiac Firebird
Engine: Killer SBC, w/ RV cam
Transmission: AutoMatic, w/ shift kit
Axle/Gears: Posi-Traction
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
This is "Are we getting together regularly" thread.
Not a dumb "what kind of oil should I use" thread. Not like anyone can really tell the difference.
I make a motion to get together ASAP, someone post a date & then we need 3 yes's to make it happen.
My shop will do for starters. (but we need to meet at an eating place)
Not a dumb "what kind of oil should I use" thread. Not like anyone can really tell the difference.
I make a motion to get together ASAP, someone post a date & then we need 3 yes's to make it happen.
My shop will do for starters. (but we need to meet at an eating place)
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
From: The Sticks, Ca.
Car: '79 Camaro; '84 Z28
Engine: 350; none
Transmission: TH-350, 2500 stall; none
Axle/Gears: posi, 3.08; disc, 3.23
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
um...ok, I appologize for drifting, won't happen again.
Rocklin is a good place for me to meet, only takes me about 4 hours to get there.
How about somewhere in that area Friday evening on the 16th?
Rocklin is a good place for me to meet, only takes me about 4 hours to get there.
How about somewhere in that area Friday evening on the 16th?
Last edited by fryer1979; Jan 4, 2009 at 09:55 PM.
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: Hanford, Ca
Car: 1989 Iroc Z T-Topin
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
work permitting i am down for the 16th. Sac is 3 1/2 hours unless i haul *** down I-5. Maybe we could go friday crash somewhere. Then take out on Saturday and cruise. Just a thought. Met rough today. He needs door hinges/and or pins if anyone has any.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,494
Likes: 3
From: Woodland, CA
Car: '02 Z06
Engine: L33 5.7
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: Stock IRS
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
This is "Are we getting together regularly" thread.
Not a dumb "what kind of oil should I use" thread. Not like anyone can really tell the difference.
I make a motion to get together ASAP, someone post a date & then we need 3 yes's to make it happen.
My shop will do for starters. (but we need to meet at an eating place)
Not a dumb "what kind of oil should I use" thread. Not like anyone can really tell the difference.
I make a motion to get together ASAP, someone post a date & then we need 3 yes's to make it happen.
My shop will do for starters. (but we need to meet at an eating place)
Supreme Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,428
Likes: 0
From: Sacramento Ca
Car: 91 Pontiac Firebird
Engine: Killer SBC, w/ RV cam
Transmission: AutoMatic, w/ shift kit
Axle/Gears: Posi-Traction
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
oh, yeah, my bad, that counts as a GTG.
Travis is 1,
I am 2...
We need 1 more to make a conspiracy, I mean, GTG.
I move that in addition to getting together, we actually have a board meeting. in which attendees, discuss the future of meetings, elect officials, etc, I'm down if there are at least 4 + attendees or more that will attend on a regular basis, (lack of attendance, subject to $??? fine).
BTW..
2nd Annual GTG @ Rocklin Automotive Goodyear coming up this spring!!!
Dates due to come..
Travis is 1,
I am 2...
We need 1 more to make a conspiracy, I mean, GTG.
I move that in addition to getting together, we actually have a board meeting. in which attendees, discuss the future of meetings, elect officials, etc, I'm down if there are at least 4 + attendees or more that will attend on a regular basis, (lack of attendance, subject to $??? fine).
BTW..
2nd Annual GTG @ Rocklin Automotive Goodyear coming up this spring!!!
Dates due to come..
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: Hanford, Ca
Car: 1989 Iroc Z T-Topin
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
does rocklin do exhaust...i am in Dire Straits (the band) and need a new cat and to find an exhaust leak.
**Nvm** i visited you website.
**Nvm** i visited you website.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 855
Likes: 0
From: California, Sacrameto
Car: 88 gta
Engine: 350 tpi
Transmission: 700r4
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
Come on marc, you know I will show. That is 3, and do it during work hours and Benny will be there anything not to work. Hahahaha... ya got 4, everyone else sucks anyway.
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Beerman, I love your enthusiasm, but man you are really slow.
----------
Beerman, I love your enthusiasm, but man you are really slow.
Last edited by scribbles; Jan 4, 2009 at 11:42 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Supreme Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 1
From: St. Petersburg, FL
Car: 88 Camaro
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: 2.73
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
Any plans for something int he fresno area ? LA/San dog and sac are like 2-3 hours drive both ways, something closer to fresno would be great.
Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 223
Likes: 0
From: Hanford, Ca
Car: 1989 Iroc Z T-Topin
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
No complaints though. Almost all my neighbors have come down to compliment the pos, and one brought me coffee one morning.
Supreme Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 1
From: St. Petersburg, FL
Car: 88 Camaro
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: 2.73
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
During the summer, my neighbors bring me fruit and drinks cuz im out there all day sweating my NA NA"s off, I bet there waiting for me to get heat stroke one of these days lol !!
Supreme Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 1
From: St. Petersburg, FL
Car: 88 Camaro
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: 2.73
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
Haha, He's hooked up in there, has tv, heat, cant beat that !
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Besides how many people here have an actual "Person" watching their car everyday/night , personal car body guard !! For cheap to !! pack of smokes every other day !!
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Besides how many people here have an actual "Person" watching their car everyday/night , personal car body guard !! For cheap to !! pack of smokes every other day !!
Last edited by rough; Jan 5, 2009 at 12:41 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 629
Likes: 0
From: The Sticks, Ca.
Car: '79 Camaro; '84 Z28
Engine: 350; none
Transmission: TH-350, 2500 stall; none
Axle/Gears: posi, 3.08; disc, 3.23
Re: We may not be so lame after all. ..
oh, yeah, my bad, that counts as a GTG.
Travis is 1,
I am 2...
We need 1 more to make a conspiracy, I mean, GTG.
I move that in addition to getting together, we actually have a board meeting. in which attendees, discuss the future of meetings, elect officials, etc, I'm down if there are at least 4 + attendees or more that will attend on a regular basis, (lack of attendance, subject to $??? fine).
BTW..
2nd Annual GTG @ Rocklin Automotive Goodyear coming up this spring!!!
Dates due to come..
Travis is 1,
I am 2...
We need 1 more to make a conspiracy, I mean, GTG.
I move that in addition to getting together, we actually have a board meeting. in which attendees, discuss the future of meetings, elect officials, etc, I'm down if there are at least 4 + attendees or more that will attend on a regular basis, (lack of attendance, subject to $??? fine).
BTW..
2nd Annual GTG @ Rocklin Automotive Goodyear coming up this spring!!!
Dates due to come..







