AlkyIROC

I actually built this in the spring of 2012 but had a lot of issues getting on track this year. It all started in July when the diesel in my tow vehicle decided to lose an injector a couple of hours drive from home.

I was finally able to get on track for the first time this year in September only to put the car on the back bumper twice without being able to make a full pass. On the second pass, I lost oil pressure. Racing was over for 2012

The engine was stripped down and sent to the machine shop for repairs. Damage was minimal. All I did was scuff up some bearings. New bearings and rings were installed and the block was given a good cleaning. The machine shop gave me back the short block and I've been slowly putting it back together.

In another thread, there was a discussion about BBC oil return from the heads directly back to the oil pan. I liked the idea so I did the modifications and it's worked out well.

3/8" NPT fittings were installed in the back of the heads. 1/2" pushloc hose was used since this isn't a pressure line.



The holes inside the heads are just about in perfect position to allow the oil to drain into the hose or back into the valley.



I'm not finished with all the oil lines on the driver side but here's the hose on the passenger side. I mocked up the headers to see how much room I had. It was better to run the hose behind the starter to stay away from a header tube. It's a tight fit but still fits. The fittings are welded on the inside of the oil pan directly beside the #3 mains so that the returning oil stays away from the crank and rods. The block heater is used to help warm up the engine before a race day. Header clearance on the driver's side prevents me from installing a second block heater. It's easier to plug in than it is to burn a couple of gallons of alcohol trying to build heat. I could also use a generator in the pits if there's a long delay between rounds (rain delays, track cleanup etc). The drain valves are so I can drain all the fluid from the block. Draining the rad doesn't drain all the coolant.

AlkyIROC

When I first put together the 588, I ditched the stud rockers. I hurt a bunch of them anyway. I got a good deal on some Comp Cams shaft rockers. They're T&D rockers with Comp's name on the rockers. Nice thing about them is I don't need to use a stud girdle and extra tall valve covers any more. The pushrods are Comp Cams 0.135" wall, 210* radius. Lifters are Crower HIPO



Heads were ported a long time ago. Porting is massive. Estimated intake flow is 400CFM. The exhaust is also ported enough that you can see the head studs in the ports. The intakes are ported similarly but have sleeves around the head studs.





I was really debating on a timing system. I looked at a number of systems and really wanted to go with a belt system. There's a bunch on the market but only 3 or 4 are not cheap import junk. I eventually went with a Milodon single idler gear system and I'm very happy with the decision. There are no timing marks. The gears are set up with a dial gauge, degree wheel and the cam card specs.



This is what the front of the engine looks like once everything is installed. Crank trigger, belt driven fuel pump, vacuum pump. The alternator is installed backwards because it's the only way I could make it fit.



I'm now ready to put the engine into the car the way it currently looks. With the tunnel ram installed, it's difficult to pick it up and lift high enough. Once the engine is sitting in the car, I need to redesign some oil lines for a remote filter, accumulator and pressure manifold for the sensors.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

i notice your using a block heater . do you also have an oil heater??

project89

iTrader: (1)

what brand pushloc hose did u use ?

im using parker brand hose on mine -10 and i had an issue with the hose poping off the fitting on the bottom side of my turbos.

i got some pushloc hose clamps and it fixed it, so u may want to grab 4 clamps and put them on its cheap insurance i think the clamps are $1.25 for a package of 2

u could use regular hose clamps but they make the barbs on the fitting cut into the hose to much for my liking. the clamps i bought just for the pushloc stuff fit inbetween the barbs and dont cut the hose

AlkyIROC

Block heater was mentioned in the first post. I do have a magnetic pan heater but when the belly pan is installed, there's no easy way to access the pan. A glue or strap on pan heater would be a better option but again, with the belly pan, there's no room under the oil pan. The belly pan goes right up against the bottom of the oil pan. Getting the oil hot is more desirable than the coolant but hot coolant gets all the metal in the block hot as well to give it a good heat soak.

That's Aeroquip hose. If those were pressure lines, I'd back them up with hose clamps. Since there's no pressure in the lines, straight push on is more than tight enough. Even with the fitting clamped in a vise, I can't pull the hose back off without using a screw driver to pry the hose off the fitting. #10 hose would have been nicer but it wouldn't fit behind the starter. I'm not trying to drain 100% of the oil from under the covers to the pan. I'm just trying to reduce how much flows down into the lifter valley especially on a hard launch when all the oil gets pushed to the back.

project89

iTrader: (1)

im sure u have used that stuff before but id still keep an eye on it i couldnt pull mine off with the fitting in a vise either but once everything got hot it poped off.

im wondering if it was just the parker hose im using but from what i hear its supposed to be really good stuff

could also be my fittings im using fragola stuff but i havent heard anythign bad about them either

project89

iTrader: (1)

got a scrap of that hose u can take a picture of for me i wanna se eif it looks different from the parker stuff

AlkyIROC

More pics. These are from the first time I put the 588 together. Nothing different this time so the pictures are still accurate.

The bottom end. Nothing special. I've found that studs for the pan work better than bolts. You can see the timing gears are already installed.



Howards billet I-beam rods. They're lighter than the Eagle H-beams I was using before and much stronger. ARP 2000 rod bolts. Those main caps are billet.



Moroso oil pump with welded on pickup tube. The one piece oil pan gasket is well worth the money.



The short block ready to receive heads



Biggest dome I can fit into the combustion chamber. Makes around 14:1 compression. Great for alcohol fuel.

AlkyIROC

The Milodon timing gears. With and without the cover. You can see the fixed idler system. In the top picture, you can see the original timing cover dowels have been cut down. Installing the Milodon cover takes time. Backlash needs to be set using the cover bolts to hold everything in position then new, larger dowels are installed below the OEM holes. The larger dowels keep the gear backlash set so when the cover needs to be removed, it can easily be reinstalled and the backlash is still perfect. Like I already mentioned, there's no timing marks on the gears. The cam gear can be installed in 7 different positions. Once the cam is indexed according to the cam card, the gear can be removed and reinstalled in a different position to advance or retard the cam timing according to a supplied chart. I'll never get that involved in playing with cam timing. My cam is installed straight up on a 114* centerline.

Setting up this gear system is very time consuming but once completed, it's far nicer than any belt system. The cam gear can be removed even with a dampener installed.

With the cam gear access cover, you only need to remove the water pump to change the cam timing or do a cam swap.

AlkyIROC

This is the best I can do for the hose and fitting pictures. The part number on the hose is FC332-08. A google search can pull up more information and pictures about it.







Aeroquip AQP hose info from Summit
http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...ocketless-hose

project89

iTrader: (1)

thanks man it looks identical to the parker hose and fragola fittings.

maybe my issue is just the added heat off the turbine housings making the hose swell

Shagwell

Looking good Stephen! - I run the same Milodon gear drive, actually have three of them between the 496, 582 & the 477.

I'm heavily considering those same rods for putting the 582 back together. I'll have to keep a much closer eye on the bearings with steel rods instead of aluminum, but at my power level they reccomend I change the alums every 40 runs.......I think I'd rather just replace the bearings more often.

That is a heat issue, there is no push-lok hose of any brand that is rated for the oil temp/ambient temp for turbo oil drains. - For note, using a clamp on push-lok hose voids all safety regs, including NHRA tech.

I'm a Parker distributor and use the heck out of the typical 801 & the cloth covered 831, but both are only rated for a max of 250* oil temp & 200* ambient. The high-temp 811 series is 300* oil/ambient temp; still not really enough to be on turbo drains. - Turbo feed & drains should be teflon lined SS braid, thus 450* continuous duty rated.

86iroc2try

Looking good...always good to see progress!!

project89

iTrader: (1)

thanks man i have to measure the oil temps coming out of the turbos , imgoing to try extending the drians down with some pipe fittings away so the hose and fitting is further away from the header and turbine housing

never heard of clamps being against nhra regs, the clamps im using are made just for pushloc fittings

on a side note i figured my oil feeds would get hotter then the drains since they are above the turbo and all the heat from the turbine/header would go up not down and those have never poped off

btw is the parker hose rated for gasoline use?

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i've been messaging JP about that parker hose some, he says it's not rated for gasoline

Shagwell

No, Parker does not offer a gasoline approved push-lok.

Both my combo's are methanol burners, so I can run the typical oil/diesel rated hose.

project89

iTrader: (1)

thanks for the info guys, ill be converting a nissian pickup to a turbo/blowthrew carb setup and had to run new fuel lines pushlock would have been a cheap way to go

sorry for clogging up ur thread alkyiroc

AlkyIROC

Can you run hard line? A 37* flaring tool, some JIC nuts and sleeves can look very professional. I did up a bunch of the fuel lines on the tunnel ram with hard line. I could easily redo those drain hoses as well. The Rigid 37* flare tool is around $100-$150 but a blind idiot could still make a perfect flare with it.

Gee, now that it was mentioned, I may just consider redoing those hoses with hard line. Just need to pick up some 1/2" tubing, nuts and sleeves. Not sure if I have a bender big enough to handle 1/2" line though. I'd like to hard line the oil lines from the filter adapter to the remote filter which I plan on installing on the front motor plate. Steel braided hose and all the fittings are so big and bulky.

Steel hard line will take the heat much better than any hose.

project89

iTrader: (1)

if i can find somone who has a 37* tool i can borrow ill prolly do that, this is a farm/ociasional street use truck so not looking to spend a whole lot of money on it.

friend threw some big tires on it and the thing has no power now so cheap t3 or ebay turbo and a small holley 4150 modified for boost will work great, may even try the stock 2bbl in draw threw config first
its a lil 2.4L inline 4 engine with a 4 or 5 speed

could just use barbed fittings but he will be mainly offroad with the truck so the added saftey of the threaded versus barbed fittings would be really nice

Shagwell

The negative to hard lines is that they fatigue & crack over time from vibration. - That's the reason most blower guys have gone to running the rubber hoses in place of the SS tubing going from the dist blocks to the nozzles. They're a lot more forgiving if you rattle the tires.

"Catch 22" situation.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i have a roll of 1/2" aluminum tubing i never used because i couldnt come up with a decent way to unroll it. felt like an idiot and gave up. i actually wanted to run hard tubing from the tank up front instead of spending all that money on the stainless braided stuff. oh well.

ezstriper

Nice looking setup !!!! good luck ! Rob

project89

iTrader: (1)

take a look at this diggler
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/tube...me-223699.html

AlkyIROC

So I finally got around to seeing how the engine would fit back into the car. I can't push it back far enough to mate up with the mid plate because of the fitting on the back of the driver's head. Before I put in those fittings, the head was right up against the firewall. I was hoping the fitting wouldn't have been in the way. I pulled the engine back out and put it back on the stand.

Looks like I finally get to modify the firewall to make a bigger opening. I've already modified it once before but it was only enough to give more access for a tranny and flexplate shield. I was going to make it bigger eventually when I decided I really needed a removable tranny tunnel.

Looks like that time is now. Although I've done a bunch of planning and know what needs to be done. This is something I wasn't looking forward to. Once it's done though, I'll be glad it's done. With a removable tunnel, it will make unbolting the tranny so much easier.

Time to dig out the jigsaw and sawzall. The question is, how big should I really make it. I'd really love to cut it all out and move it back right to the windshield base.

1gary

You have the means of making curved parts??.Planishing/English Wheel??.

AlkyIROC

Nah. If I wanted something that fancy, I'd buy a premade kit.

The top of my cowl is already removed so there's a ledge across the underside of the windshield. What I'm thinking about is at both outside edges of the firewall where the engine sits, cut straight up to the cowl. The sides will need to be tapered in slightly especially on the driver's side for throttle pedal clearance. It's then just a matter of making a recessed box to make an indented firewall for more clearance. The tranny tunnel will be a left and right side two piece cover since trying to get one large piece out will be difficult. The tunnel doesn't need to be rounded. I have access to a metal brake that can do the job.

The hardest part will be deciding on how to attach the tunnel to make it removable. In a tube chassis car with a flat floor, it's easy. A production floor is far from flat. I may have to section out parts of the floor to replace them with flat sections just to attach the tunnel.

The firewall will be fabricated sort of like the hotrodders do when putting a V8 into a 20's or 30's car.

1gary

All of our tube frame cars used Duz fasters.Thing is with vibration they all do end up needing to be replaced or re-riveted.They do loosen up.

Shagwell

I'm actually going the other way with the camaro; going to seal the floor/firewall up to the midplate & run the floor underneath it fully, so I may eliminate the tunnel entirely and hang the trans open inside the car. - I run a shield & a blanket though, namely will be running the blanket to help keep the heat down with the trans sitting out right beside me.

Since I'm switching to a sort of double frame rail in the chassis I may dzues a flat panel on each side & the top though, haven't really decided.

AlkyIROC

An open transmission is allowed as long as you have a 15 layer fire suit. I'm not ready for that expense.

I've been checking on how the best way to do a recessed firewall. Shouldn't be too hard to fabricate something. It will be like doing the back half. Once you cut out what you don't want, you're committed to getting it finished one way or another.

Shagwell

^ For sure. You still have the link to the PB album on my camaro? There's some decent firewall pics in there. - My "kick boards" and the inner cowl are all in place per the 10.5 rules, but the firewall is a smooth flat panel. Motor is stock location & I have clearance for the drain-backs.


As for the suit, I'm required the 15 anyway with the blown alky combo & will likely spring for a custom fitted 20. - Either is going to be stupid HOT to wear with no noticeable difference so I just as well have the extra protection.

AlkyIROC

I still have your link and figured you already use a 15 layer suit I think a 2 layer is too hot.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

pretty sure that 15 layer suit of armor would kill me in the summer. dont know how you can stand it!

AlkyIROC

My engine to firewall clearance is tight because when I installed a motor plate, I moved the engine back as far as it could go. I'd love to move it back a little more but the headers will hit the front frame rails where they taper inwards behind the engine.

I think my engine is 2-3" back from the stock location. It helped move some weight off the nose but even though it's still nose heavy, weight on the nose could help keep the front end down.

1gary

Got me thinking if those drain backs are worth all the extra firewall work.With a high volume pump you always have to have a large oil pan and I would think you have that covered already.Just how much drain back to do expect??. Qts,pints,less than that??. We don't have them on the 632 and I promise you it wheelstands pretty hard.We do run a windage tray and trap door.

Shagwell

8 qrt shoe-box Milodon with the curved/wrap-around windage tray & a full length kick-out, Melling Performance HV anti-cavitation pump. - The drain-backs were a big improvement for us, better pressure through the run, no smoke out the exhaust, & no pressure drop during decel.


If I had the space available I would actually move the motor forward about 1" in ours.


It's freakin hot for sure, and thus why all my interior tin is flat-black instead of polished alum like the old car was. - The "tin foil effect" in that thing was horrendous down here in FL.

I have a 3.2a/5 suit that I tend to wear with the nitrous combo, actually have previously worn it with the blown combo & tech didn't say anything. - Just stepping up to the sweat suit for my own safety. I have threatened to weld a "serpentine" section of aluminum tubing all through the Kirkey & run the nitrous purge through it before.....lol

1gary

Not debating here.Just thinking if you where to fill both valve covers(and that isn't what is happening here)you would use only 2Qts of the 8Qts that is available.It is kind of the reason why I question how much the drain backs are actually draining back.

Like Alky said.He doesn't use valve seals so in a wheelstand,drain backs or not he is still going to see a puff of smoke.

AlkyIROC

It's more the hard acceleration. Oil fills the valve covers and is forced to the back. Only so much oil can return from the back of the head. Putting the drain backs will help return the oil directly to the pan instead of taking a longer route draining into the lifter valley first.

As for the extra firewall work to provide access. I've been wanting to modify the firewall for at least 5 years now. Every time the engine comes out, I look at the marks I've made on it where I want to cut it out mainly to provide better access to take out the bellhousing bolts or to provide enough room for an inexpensive flexplate shield. Now with the fittings hitting the firewall, I have a good enough reason to cut it out to give me that access.

I've been lazy lately plus it's cold outside so I haven't been making much progress with modifications even with a heated garage. I'll probably start cutting out the firewall this weekend.

I could see a tinfoil affect with an all aluminum interior but isn't a black interior just as bad? Although it would show every dirty hand print and smudge, an all white interior would probably be best.

1gary

Well Black cars are hotter.................

I hear ya about wanting more clearance.Still I question how much oil is draining back.I don't think it is sufficient enough.So I respectfully disagree.Some of the running oil is still draining down into the lifter valley.

Shagwell

My old man has been racing BBC's for 40+ years; all his alky combos have been sans valve seals. Even for the 20ish years that I can remember we have always had a high-gear light smoke out the exhaust along with a slight pressure drop & had a signifigant pressure fall off during decel after the stripe.

With the blown combo turning over 10k on 70w it was to the point of dropping to 0 oil pressure until almost the turn-off when it would slowly recover. We tried every common solution under the sun, various pumps, various pump springs, various sized restrictors(from none down to the smallest available sizes), tried with & w/o drilling the front cam plugs, etc.

It clicked in my mind one Friday evening while testing that tall BBC valvecovers will easily hold 4qrts each, thus if it's not returning fast enough it could easily starve the pump. We pulled the motor & did the returns Sat then headed back out that evening to test; no more high gear smoke, no more pressure drop & a steady 40-50psi during shut-down. We've done them to every motor since with the same results, even after removing the oil restrictors entirely.


I'm open to all theories/ideas about how to make something work better, but the results of this were VERY evident to us.

Pat Musi even runs similar returns, and he actually ties one in at both ends of the heads & T's them together at the pan. - You have two roughly 1/2" drain back holes at either end of the heads factory, both of which feed into the intake valley, and then down to the pan after they pass the windage of the entire rotating assembly. Two completely un-obstructed 1/2" drain hoses have the ability to drain far more than the factory drains could even attempt.

1gary

When the chute comes out is the sametime the engine is shut down/off the driveline.Maybe a different process,but no drop in oil pressure to deal with in the shutdown.Main stopping power is the chute with at the end very little brake is involved.

Shagwell

3-speed trans, so I don't click it off till I'm below 50ish mph. I like my legs where they are & would rather not rely on the shield to keep them there.

That said, as noted we also had a 5-10psi fall-off at top of high gear that went away with the drain backs. We have plenty of psi so not really a big issue, but shows that the pump was already starting to starve at that point even when under power.

1gary

****-with us it's a stick two speed.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

how fast is that RED again?

327sleeper88

+1 on those howard billet rods. a lot of people always go for eagle but a few more $$$ gets you just about the best steel rod available. i used those rods my very first build, never let me down.

is it me or are those comp shaft rockers 100% identical to T&D ones???

Shagwell

Eagle are not at all what I would consider a high-end rod, they dang sure aren't in the class of the Howards', Olivers', Carillas', Crowers', or Lunatis'.

I'm about to order a set of the Howards 6.700's for my 582, likely the "best bang for your buck" rod there is.

AlkyIROC

T&D makes them for CC. CC's name is on the rockers. T&D's part number is on the stands. I got a good deal on them. They were a display set. Installed on an engine but never run. The intake stands were too short for my intake valves. I contacted T&D about it. They told me to send them back and they would send me the taller stands. All it cost me was postage to get the stands exchanged.

Oh, my crankshaft is also a Howards Pro Max crank.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

We run drainbacks on all of our 18/12 degree stuff and on some of our 24 degree stuff. They tend to pump alot of oil uptop and due to the poor design of the factory drainbacks we started adding the drainback to prevent the high rpm oil pressure drops. This is with the 10-11qt Dan olson full sump pans with Moroso gerotor pumps. When if comes to our high end stuff with the high piston speeds such as 598's or 632's we use either Crower's or Olivers. Nothing else. You will be lucky to ever see a eagle rod in our shop. plain ole junk.

thisjustaintme

A Very respectable shop outta georgia strongly suggested to run drain backs with my big block, With my conventional heads they decided to run 6an drainbacks

1gary

The best with a glide in the 1/8 was 4.56@150.

1gary

Maybe I missed it,but wouldn't you want drain backs in the front of the heads too for the shutdown while you slowing down??.