So what exactly has been shown to work with the high HP cars? There seems to be a lot of rumor about what people have gotten away with, and a lot of combinations that don’t seem to really make sense.

For example, for a long time it was rumored that Preston was using a stock intank and a big inline pump in is 9 second camaro. That would surprise me if it’s true, your typical “big” inline like a 67gal/hr or 255 inline should be good to about 700hp, but it’s not uncommon for a smaller intank to act as a restriction well before that even with a big inline. For him to be running the times that he has he’d have to be making something in the mid 700hp range, so the intank would actually have to be helping the inline.

OTOH, I know someone that has run consistent 120mph runs in a 3500# blown car with JUST a 190LPH intank and the base fuel pressure set at 60 psi (only had 36pph injectors at the time). That should be totally impossible if you look at the flow/pressure charts but I know it was true because I was there to swap pumps later on and was tweaking the FPR during test and tune night.

And then there are the odd setups, like I’ve recently run across an incon twin turbo mustang being built for road racing with a single, intank 255 as a “boost pump” and 2 x 255 inline pumps. To me that sounds like the 255 intank will be a restriction.

All the “toohighpsi.com” cars are running the same combination, an intank pump, usually a 255 and then a second, inline pump that has a pickup that is drilled through the sender assembly and y’s into the fuel line downstream.

So what are you guys out there running? Guido? Monti? Even some of the not quite as powerful cars? Anyone running dual intanke pumps on a 3rd gen? Anyone see the merit in a single intank and dual inline pumps?

I’m debating what I’m going to do next time (which will be soon, and will need to ultimately support over 700hp). Since I have 2 big inline pumps and a working stock TPI pump a few possibilities that I’ve considered:

- try the setup that was rumored to work for preston (that scares me)
- double up intank pumps… even possibly keep the stock pump and add a GSS340. I figure that the stock pump is good for 300-400hp, and the 340 should be good for >700hp, so potentially you’d have a combination that could feed >1100hp, if you get lucky
- 2 big intanks like the GSS340 (unlikely also, since that would mean that I’d have to replace everything that I have with parts that I’d have to buy… I’m too cheap for that if I think I can get away with something that I have)
- how about try the mustang road racer’s idea and a big intank and then 2 inline “boost pumps,” but again, I’d be worried that he intank would end up as a restriction.

 

You might want to contact Rich Krause. He's a moderator on the Forced Induction board at CamaroZ28.com. He owns a 4th gen Camaro pumping over 700 hp. I believe he's running a pair of in-line pumps with no in-tank unit.

Or go here for some info on his car:

http://www.kennedysdynotune.com/

Go to Featured Projects, then Dual Power Adder Camaro. His e-mail addy is located at the bottom of the page.

 

I ran into this problem myself. I have the ATI inline (which by definition isnt huge) and a stock intake. No matter how much fuel I threw at it in the prom I'd always go lean on the top end. Ive since replaced the stock intank with a 255 and havent made it back to the dyno (car got smashed). The setup made 500 to the tire at about 5k rpm's but its clear in my situation that the stocker wasnt helping the inline enough to feed the motor.

 

...also TurboTPI ....you should ask him what he has for a fuel setup . He is running mid 10's with a single turbo and TPI

 

Well, having done some poking around I can’t seem to make any sense of what a lot of people are doing for fuel systems, especially the setups with a lift and a boost pump. Seems like if you are doing that with 2 pumps in series if both pumps aren’t reasonably close to each other in flow one ends up as a restriction to the other. One of my friends who’s a board member here pointed out that he tried using first a t-rex and then an A1000 inline with a newish stock TPI pump in tank and neither worked right with his NA engine.

Willie posted similar info in the other thread about running one pump and not the other keeping things from running right, and I’ve run across a bunch of spreadsheets showing actual flow numbers at specific pressures showing that the series setup doesn’t really help that much.

That being said, I can’t say what all the setups out there intended to be run like that are really doing, and I’m stumped with the turbomustangs project car that is planning on using a 255 intank as a lift pump and then 2 inline 255’s, from the data that I’m seeing you’re not going to accomplish much with the 2 inline pumps.

My current game plan is either 2 GSS340’s in the tank, or a GSS340 and the stock pump in the tank, probably staged or with a variable power supply of sorts and then a Mallory 4305M regulator (possibly a 4309 instead) which should do a good job regulating things and get rid of my 3rd leaking holley TPI regulator since this spring. What do you guys think?

 

I never saw the point in running two pumps in series either. I tend to think about it using batteries/voltage sources. Two parallel seems better. No expert....just going be a sense of how current & liquids flow.

While you are at it, you might think of splitting the fuel rails and feeding each with it's own pump.

 

A friend of mine is using 2*255 intake pumps and he is puching over 800 hp so thats the way I'm going to build it next year...

 

I dont have anything installed yet so this post probably dosnt count, but when researching and putting together my fuel system for my TT project (700whp goal) I decided to ditch the inline pumps and go with a single external pump (Aeromotive A1000). This had downsides, mostly cost since you'll need custom lines to support the flow of the bigger pumps, and you either have to sump the stock tank or run lines into the tank. It was the more expensive way to go, but from my perspective the best way to go so thats the way I went. I didnt want to deal with multiple pumps and the possibility of something whacky going on with the voltages. I also want to drop the tank the least ammount of times possible in my lifespan. Right now I have a secondary inline pump (from the Vortech S-Trim kit) and when that thing failed it really sucked, boggled my brain trying to troubleshoot. Turned out it was voltage/power related. I never want to deal with that again. I haven't installed this new fuel system yet, waiting to do the intake at the same time I do the fuel system so its on hold.

 

Why?

Is this in a 3rd gen? I still haven’t been able to confirm that you can actually drop them into the tank opening (if nothing else I’ll know when I try it)?

If that’s what you really want to do then get your mitts on the aeromotive dealer catalog. It has specific packages for specific cars, basically in all cases it amounts to trying to fit an A1000 in to whatever issues that particular car has. The 3rd gen f-body listing starts with that sumping is impractical and they actually sell a kit to modify the stock pickup/sender assembly to get rid of the intank pump and work as a pickup for the A1000 (not sure that you really need the kit if you have some creativity, but it would be a good source of ideas).

Since 1- I’m not a big fan of aeromotive, 2- you’d be on the ragged edge of what aeromotive suggests for that application and I don’t belived being on the ragged edge fuel wise is ever a good idea and 3- I don’t like the idea of using this style pump to “suck” without a lift pump, if I was you I’d definitely reconsider.

Oh, just cut an access panel… if you radius the corners and reinforce the mounting point for the new cover you can make it stronger then stock and then all this becomes a non issue.

 

its in a 4'gen... So I will find out

 

Well, I cant reconsider, I already have everything hehe but thank you for the information and tips. I'll definately check that catalog out and hopefully it'll work out for me. Can I ask why you dont like Aeromotive? Personal experiences with the stuff I wanna do is something I dont get too much of around here locally, so if you got a story I'd like to hear it. Also, you mean ragged edge because my whp goal is the actual limit of the pump for my application right? I totally agree, I expect to be limited by my fuel system. If not, can you let me know what you meant? I really want to make sure I do this setup right, cant be making any mistakes.

I was always under the impression that those fuel tank doors created an interior noise problem. I planned to do it to my track car but hesitate for the street car. What do you think about it? I guess it wouldnt make much difference anyway with that A1000 huh? That thing is loud! hahaha

 

Aeromotive- they had some issues with things falling apart when the newer oxygenated gas came out, and on warranty items they issued the generic “oh, you ran some alcohol through it and YOU damaged it, it’ not our problem. We could repair it for $xxx” (and admittedly, they were not the only ones with failures due to the change in additives, but I don’t know of any others that blamed the problem on the customer or that didn’t just replace/fix the part instantly).

Noise… if you seal the opening up again it shouldn’t be any different then stock noise wise. If you reinforce it like I suggest it should actually deaden some of the noise. I donno, even if I had the tank out I’d cut the panel and make it nice since I have no intensions of dropping a 3rd gen tank unless I have no other options.

With the A1000 it’s going to more depend on where and how you mount it

 

Not to deviate to far off topic but I heard the same thing about their parts/ cust . service. I've heard nothing but good things about Weldon Inline Pumps. If I buy an inline its gonna be from them.

 

Bringing this back, I found some info recently that looks interesting. Bosch makes a number of pumps, including one that is called the '420' pump, worth 420 LPH, with the last bit of the part number being '044' Full part number 0 580 254 044. around 200 bucks, capable of some impressive numbers. Its larger than the usual pumps, but might fit in the pickup. can also be mounted externally.

I saw it available at jayracing.com. I think I might go this route, compared to aeromotive. And while weldon makes great pumps, they seem pricey.

 

right now prestons car has 2 good sized weldon fuel pumps ($$$) and one is wired to a pressure switch, and only turns on at a certain boost level

i should really stop at his house and see what he's doing to the car this winter

when you're thinking about fuel requirements look at it this way.....

when you see a formula that says, you need XXXlbs/hr of fuel to support XXXhp.......thats all well and good

however, keep in mind that you're car makes that "peak" Hp less than 1% of the time, and that flow rate is what is needed to make, and sustain that amount of power.........so you can GET AWAY with significantly less flow on the street.

take the same car to the track, and you'll see the difference.......as the RPM and power increases the demand for fuel will increase, and suddenly you'll be starving the motor

so take into account what you're gonna do with it, before you buy a $500 fuel pump

 

FWIW, I have run a Vortech for ten years now....although not very well To make a long story as short as possible, I recently found out during a head/cam/timing set swap that the individual who did the original installation (to my eternal shame and regret, I didn't do it) hooked up my 155 lph inline helper pump (that came with the kit) to the windshield washer pump power feed line. Basically, it was simply sitting in the line, and not working, as that circuit isn't "hot in run." I thought I was a real effing idiot for not recognizing that earlier, but it just never happened. Looking back, I can recall a couple of times at 105-110 mph letting off the throttle and feeling what I now believe to be the engine momentarily (1 second or so) quitting and restarting. Without the secondary pump actually working, only the intank was running....and fueling the engine under boost. In another thread I started a few months ago, I asked if that secondary (sleeping) pump would be a restriction if not working and all who responded seemed to believe so. It's truly amazing that (1) the engine never SEEMED to lean out under power save for the momentary quitting (2) the engine didn't blow itself to kingdom come. Conclusion: The stock pump must be capable of a decent amount of flow/pressure, although at the power levels many in this thread are talking about, it would problably have to be replaced even if used only as a booster pump. I have heard that the load on the intank units goes down when combined with an inline, because it no longer has to produce flow and pressure, just flow. So, its effective pumping volume goes up quite a bit. I hope this adds at least a little bit to the discussion. Good luck.

 

If you have the means... WELDON... Except no substitutes...

I use a sumped stock tank... and a weldon 2025. You could fit a 255lph into the INLET of this monster..

Weldon is pretty much the best you can get.. Im no where near close to taxing this thing with the setup in my sig..

 

I'm running a Sumped stock tank with 3/8" bungs to a SX Inline Pump (85 Gal @45psi) to 1/2" hardline up to the fuelrail then 3/8 hardline back to the tank and a Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump. I've been told it will feed the 780hp I have.

We used a Aeromotive A1000 with out a boost a pump during dyno testing and the motor went way lean. So then we hooked up the Weldon 2025. Not one hiccup. Weldon is the best if you got the $$$.

 

I was just doing a search regarding all of these multiple pump setups and it hit me. A post from a couple of years ago from BLWR PWR spoke specifically about something I was planning to do: run a Walbro 255lph inline with a stock unit intank. I thought that the flow capacity difference would allow this inline pump to draw the line "dry" after the stock one. I just figured that this would take out both pumps. He seems to have no problems, but the flow graphs I've seen leave me a little apprehensive about doing this. Does this sound feasible?? I know this is a basic question, but with the wealth of experience on this subject here, I had to ask. Thanks to everyone.

 

For a while everyone was saying that Preston Smith (turbosmitty) was running a stock intank + a big inline (I don’t remember if it was an A1000 or an SX or what, but something like that) in his 9 second IROC.

The more blown cars I see with fuel system problems the less I believe that.

 

I know what you mean. I read in that old thread I was referring to about someone having claimed to have burned out both pumps by using a manual shut-off switch for the inline. I believe the guy because he seemed adamant, and claimed to have experienced it first hand. However, I can attest to the fact that the guy that originally installed my Vortech hooked the inline pump's power feed wire to the windshield washer circuit!! Not only did my intank not burn out (I didn't realize this until years later), but I didn't blow the engine sky-high from fuel starvation under boost. However, I will say that the car never really ran correctly after the initial installation, so I never really hammered it. There's got to be a reason why we both had completely different experiences, I just don't know off hand what that reason is.

I simply figured that even if you extrapolate the "0 psi" flow rate for an intank pump (used as a lifter), and compare it to the rate a 255lph sees at idle, a 255lph still could nearly outflow it (if the intank unit were stock) at 40-45 psi, at least under the conditions that would be present most of the time. That can't be an ideal scenario.

 

If you do a search on www.turbobuick.com you'll find what ur looking for with the twin walbro 340's a.k.a. XP fuel pumps. I have a hotwired walbro 340 in the TTA. It had no problems feeding the V6 at 20+ psi running 50lb/hr injectors.

I've been trying to sell the car as a roller, but the value of them is in the toilet and haven't had much luck, so I may build it up again(money pit).

I have an A1000 sitting next to me as well as 6 55lb/hr injectors. If I use it, I'll be hotwiring the pump and getting rid of the intank pump. Also in that mix might be to swap the 3/8 feed line as the return and use a new 1/2" to feed the next motor.

Some have had problems with the aeromotive pumps and claimed that they can't be ran continuously on the street unless you use the controller they sell. IDK

 

I'm not familiar with the term "hotwired" in referrence to fuel pumps, but I've heard the same thing about Aeromotive fuel pumps. I've heard they're good, but the brain box has been described by some as a must. It seems that there are many here who've got far more radical setups than I do. I don't know that I'd need anything quite so extreme, but I'll try to check out the turbobuick site to get some input there as well. Thank you.

 

Hotwiring simply is adding a stand alone wiring and relay setup so the voltage never drops off.

Most turbo buick guys run a thicker gauge wire and seperate relay to ensure the proper voltage, as well as maybe a volt booster to up the voltage at a specific rpm. As the voltage drops below 12v the pumps output really starts to be noticeable.

The two main things I saw regarding the aeromotives are the need for their brain/controller and the amount of heat it injects into the fuel....

 

So that's what it means. I just got a relay kit from MAD Enterprises to power my secondary pump. I just didn't know that the term "hotwired" meant that. I figured that this was the only reliable way to do it anyway.