I will be installing a alky injection set up on my car this weekend or early next week. The question(s) I have is what alcohol is best to mix if I mix it myself? Im looking for a 50/50 mix at the moment. I know that the alcohol that people run at my track cost about 3-4 bucks a gallon IIRC(the purple stuff). Is this a good alcohol to mix with the water? Or should I use another form such as denatured alchohol? Sorry for my poor spelling in this post.

What is the best water to use? A certaint filtered kind?

Also, alcohol weights more then water so when mixing the 50/50 blend, would I mix it by weight insted of volume?

Thanks and im sorry if I seem dumb but I am very new at alky injection and there is so much stuff on the internet that it can be decieving.

 

Blue washer fluid or 100% ally. Ally is clear and should b about two bucks a gallon

 

All the subaru kids I know also use Blue washer fluid.

 

Blue washer fluid has methanol in it? Ive heard of using it but wasnt sure if it worked as well as making your own blend

 

blue washer fluid is extreamly flamable once it comes out of a spray nozzle

and yes it has methanol in it to stop it from freezing

in order from best to worst things to use

100% methanol
blue washer fluid
100% distiled water

using water gives u cooling properties but no extra fuel
blue washer fluid is like a 50/50 mix it gives u the cooling of water + the coolibng and some of the higher octane of methanol
100% meth gives u a much hoigher detonation resitance due to its very high octane and its very good cooling propeties

 

Where do I get 100% meth at?

 

Heres some good stuff on the washer fluid. Sound right??

Unfortunately, not just any type of windshield washer fluid can be used. When shopping for a windshield washer fluid it's important to find of washer fluid rated for at least -20 degree's below zero as it will contain a large percentage of methanol mixed with water. Additionally, be sure to check the bottle and that it contains methanol as there are some eco-friendly windshield washer fluids rated below zero which do not contain any methanol which you do not want to use.

 

ur local racetrack and if u have any local speed shops they shoudl sel it as well.

in order to buy 100% from the track u will have to pick up a fuel jug, they wont let u fill a regular gas can with it i dont think.

u could try writing methanol only in huge letters on a regular gas can and seeing if they will let u use it.we always had 5 gallon race fuel jugs though

 

u want m1 methanol its almost 40 bucks for 5 gallons form vp , but it should be cheaper if u buy it at ur track

5 gallons should last u about a year
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/racing-fuel

i almost forgot methanol must be stored in a sealed container as it evaporates extreamly fast and it also asorbs water very fast

 

Ok dave, Ill call them tommorow and see what they say. I know they have n20, 108, 110 octane sold there. Im not sure about the methanol though.

Whats the difference between M1, M2, exc?

 

difference between m1/m2/m3 is m2 and m3 have additives and stuff in them, i highly doubt ur track will carry m2 or m3 as they arent legal for most nhra classes

if ur track has all that they should have methanol, if not contact vp race fuels and they can tell u of any shops in ur area that carry it

 

Heres what the track sells...

What kind of race gas do you sell? We sell Sunoco blue 110 leaded and Sunoco purple 112 leaded. We also sell methanol (straight alcohol). Prices can change without notice, please contact the track for updated pricing.

I got the purple confused with the 112. opps

 

M1™
M1 Racing Methanol has a 99.95% minimum purity - the highest purity available in the U.S. With M1, engines run cooler and are less subject to corrosion. VP uses only lined drums which prohibit rust, corrosion and metal deposits that can contaminate fuel delivery systems. Recommended for all methanol-legal racing applications.



















M3™
Like M1, M3 starts with methanol of the highest purity, but includes lubrication and combustion additives for an extra boost. M3 offers a wider range of jetting options, making jetting easier and more consistent. For bracket racers, variations in ET from run to run will be substantially reduced. With better tuning and cleaner, more efficient combustion, M3 makes more power and yields better throttle response than any standard methanol on the market. M3's improved combustion also reduces the noxious fumes associated with methanol fuels, so it's much easier on the eyes and nose. For 60-70% of methanol applications, M3 won't require jetting or timing changes-just pour it in and get an immediate performance improvement in all areas. In the other 30-40%, M3's added vaporization may actually hurt volumetric efficiency and performance, which is what lead to the development of M5. M3 is not pure methanol and won't pass a water test.





















M5™
M5 is simply the best performing methanol on the market. With its upgraded combustion additives, M5 will make more power than M3, i.e., 5-7% more power than standard methanol, while offering the same or better protection against detonation. Like M3, M5's improved vaporization offers a wider acceptable range of air/fuel ratios and tuning. It also yields faster combustion speeds which lead to closer EGT's from cylinder to cylinder, providing more consistent performance from run to run. M5 is not pure methanol and won't pass a water test.

 

Dave check my edited post/ What the track sells. I dont remember that meth(alchohol) costing to much at the track. About 4 bucks a gal IIRC

 

alky must have went up alot then in the past 2 years, we used to pay 2.50-2.75 a gallon but 4 bucks a gallon isnt bad, u will be surprised at how long 1 gallon of alky will last u

 

Ok well I make the pick up later this week when the tracks open and just buy some.

The 108 at the track is up to $8.50 a gal. The track rapes us on fuel.

 

thats cheap, i think 110 or 112 was damn near 16$ a gallon at my old track 116 was over 20

 

Wow man thats alot. My friend got a 55gal drum for $380 for 110 octane over the winter of a rep. from the area.

Im excited about the alky injec. I got a buddy picking me up some on wednesday when hes at the track so if all goes well and I dont have to work over on friday, I hope to start installing the alky.

 

Ok well my parts are on the way. I have 2 gal of alky from the track, and hopefully after friday, if the parts are here by then, I can begin to install.

I got a few qestions still:

1. Where should I place the nozzle at? You can see my picture below and how the intake looks and where my IAT sensor is. I dont want to soak the IAT as I want a true reading but also im not sure how the effects change, the farther away from TB the nozzle is. I would think that I should put it as far away from the TB but post intercooler. Such as where my BOV is at?

2. Should I look to keep the afr's lower? Right now shes tuned to 12.0-12.5afr. IIRC AFR's should be about a .5 point lower at least as alky is sc. at a lower AFR. My boost is set to 12.5psi and has been for awhile. Although to add. Im curious as to how much the AFR will drop just from the little bit of added alky.

3. I've decided I am going to be running a 50/50 mix for the main reason that I drive the car arround sometimes and don't want pure alcohol next to my motor. I dont want a big flame/bang. So will mixing a gal of water and gal alky be close enough?

4. Boost reference from the turbo or the intake? I use all my references off the intake as im loosing about 2-3 psi in the process from the turbo to the back of the intake.



Thanks again!

 

Refrence 2 intake
U can't mix the m1 meth with water
Move air closer to coupled and install nozzle were current air location is
Sorry 4 the short reply Sri k using cell phone atm

 

???

 

Is alky, 100% methanol??? Why can I not mix it it bring down the % of content?

Thanks as I do relize these questions are probly dumb ones.

 

alky is alcohol. The two types of alcohol commonly used are ethanol (corn) and methanol (wood). Bring it down the % of content?

Blue -20*F washer fluid for $1.50 / gallon works decent, but 100% meth is better.
You need a good reliable system to burn 100%. Keep in mind that alcohol burns with a clear flame so you can't see the fire if one starts.

 

If you're going to buy the windshield washer fluid, this chart has the meth % of various brands:

 

Cell auto corrected me. Air should be ait sensor. Move the ait and put the nozzle were the AIT sensor is now

 

My resoning for running a lower meth content is I dont want a ticking flame bomb under my hood. IIRC also some pumps are not designed to work with 100% meth, the one I bought "says" its rated at 50/50 mix?


I read that I can "cut" m1 meth with distilled water so that I can make my own 50/50 or so blend? Thats what I ment by content. Sorry for my pour choice of words.

The reason I was going with the alcohol from the track is because its 2.50 a gal and I knew what I was getting compared to some of the blue Win. Washer stuff. Although that link above really does help me out in the case that Id need to buy some.


Be gentel with me guys im trying to learn so im sure im asking some very stupid questions.

 

Also, dave. If I move the IAT sensor back then im still not getting a true reading of what the temp is. But Now that I think of it I do have some of these... actually alot of them...I think I could figure something out. I use them for HVAC but I have seen people out at the track hooking them up and using them before for IAC sencing, but is just for a visual, cant datalogg it; It would just be on my meter.

The main reason I wanted a "true" intake temp reading though the ecm, is because in $59 I can set it up so that if the intake temps sky rocket I can take out as much timing as I want. This could possible save my car from a big bang if I ever had a problem with the injection pump.

 

u will get the right reading , the alky will not soak the sensor it just about evaporates as soon as it comes out the nozzle . methanol is far less dangerous then gasoline so having a gallon jug of it under the hood is fine besdies millions of ppl do it without incident.

alky does burn clear , but it it were to catch on fire u would see some color from the plastic/ruber stuff around it melting and burning.


dont worry about the ait vs timing tables , if the pump ever fails the temps will be back to normal and the ecm will do its job.

with the meth on u will prolly see 60-80* temps tops maybe even as low as 50*


i know ur new to meth injection but ur kinda overthinking the whole thing

 

Ok dave. . Hope to get the parts tonight and ill keep ya updated/

EDIT, just got home from work no parts yet......

 

J/W but is Isopropyl Alchohol... a decent form of meth? If so I have gallons of the stuff avalible for my use for free. Its Gas line freeze treatment but in short I have a friend that has it avalible in bulk....

I think the flash point is a tad lower then denatured and methanol, but having a few gal of this arround may come in handy in a pinch

 

i would stay away from denatured alcohol . i used it in my srt4 an it doesn't mix with water very well . one run my a/f would be right on the money at 11.4 an the next it would be rich as hell 10-11 . i run windsheild wiper fluid an it was ok for cooling prperties but doesn't have enought meth in it to help with a/f . straight heet in the yellow bottle seemed to work the best but is expensive thats why i tryed the denatured alcohol . we have a mobil distributer here in town that i can buy meth for 250 a 55 gal. drum .thats the route i'm going after my turbo install is complete
hope this bit of experience helps you ...
p.s don't tune counting on the meth if the pump fails you'll have a big problem . tune without it then add it for the cooling effect . it's really tempting to say wow i got really rich with so i can lean it out but if something goes wrong your ****ed . just my 2 cents

 

you can also mix tylene in your gas to add octane ...

 

What is that stuff?

And iso is denatured alky then? Sorry im no chemist at all.

I do have a nice tune for 11.8-12.4 Afrs. The true gas AFRs and from what ive read the alky inject may lower .5-1.0 afr lower and I should just let it stay there. So tuning for a 11.0-11.5 with the alky would be fine as it is really 12.0-12.5? Correct?

Thanks.

 

be careful about mixing paint solvents and other stuff to boost octane, i wouldnt do it at all with a the good race fuels out there. if interested just google homebrew octane booster.

 

theres a difference on methanol an denatured alcohol . heet has methanol in it it's alot more stable when mixed with water . denatured alcohol has a tendancie to seperate with water an give unsteady a/f readings . tylene can be found in any hardware store like lowes, home depot .theres alot of threads on the internet about using it as a octane booster but i'm kinda like 34 blazer on that i wn't use that but there are many who sware by it . what i did was get my a/f right first shooting for 11.4 -11.8 then spray meth ( heet ) mixed with water for the cooling effect . i found a half gallon of water to a half gallon of meth works very well . when i did it my a/f went from 11.4 to 11.0 which leaves room for error if the pump stops working . i had a kit from cooling mist . great people to buy from never had a problem wth it .plus you set it to come on at your preferred boost level . i had mine set to come on at 10 but i was running 23 lbs of boost from a 50 trim . hope this helps some
heres a couple links to help you :
http://www.coolingmist.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_fuel

 

if you run windsheild wash you can spray that without diluting it with water because it already has been

 

Ok thanks for the info and help

 

I stay away form the washer fluid. Ive used this for awhile now.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SNO-40008/


No muss- no fuss.

If your just getting started, keep it simple to start.

 

Well I got every thing on the car except the switched power and a led so taht I know my boost contacts are working. Then alot of cleaning up with the wires. Zip Ties!!

 

pics . and since ur tune is already good just try the meth system as is as long as the nozzle isnt to large u should need to retune

 

Sorry no pics yet dave. Been working so much but I did get the car out with the alky inject. on it. It went well. Car felt good for a wee litle 9.5Psi command. Its the bin I made the other day for when it was 90* degrees out so the timing and such is weak.

First this is a 50/50 mix in my tank. Our tanks hold almost 1 gal, which surprised me...
I think the alky is set to come on at 7psi..... I cant tell for sure, That thing isnt the easiest to set....

But the intake temps would fall below what they started at for example: 90* to start then down to 80* or so then back up to 90-95* after a 0-100mph boost.

The main thing I see wrong though is that the car wanted to stall out after the first run. I boosted from 0-111mph as I didnt know I was going that fast. But What I think is that when I let off the gas the remaining meth/water mix in the lines fell down into the intake and caused a rich condition. The reason I know it was rich was because after I coasted and was in deaccel mode, I came to a stop and gave her a little gas and thats when it hesitated and I could actually hear the turbo spooling up while I was in "N" trying to clear her out. Has anyone ever delt with this before??

But besides that the car is much richer 11.0-11.5 or so like it should be with the meth. I was tuned to 11.8-12.4 before the meth on this tune. The plugs look great and never did I worrie about the intake temps for once.

I added the excel data from the second run I did, it was roughly 80* out side and I was driving the car for about 15 minutes prior to the run. Yes my charge piping isnt the best and a huge heat sink over time....

 

do u have a checkvalve in the msupply line to the nozzle?

also is ur ait sensor before or after the meth nozzle

and after u run out this tank do not mix the m1 methanol with water, u ruin the methanol by doing that.like i said u cannot mix m1 methanol with water

 

The IAT sence, is after the nozzle. The IAT sence, may be getting sprayed to much? I just moved it up further twards the TB and Put the nozzle where the old on was.

No I did not add a check valve on the supply line, completly fogot to do so. I will get one this evening before I got to the track and put it on.

I didnt put the meth in that I have as I didnt have time to tune, its a 49/51 blend of that boost juice crap. I got a gallon off a friend for free. He got a injetion kit that he doesnt even use? I dont know why though..

 

ok the boost jiuce stuff is fine, the reason the car almost stalled is cause the nozzle was leaking into the intake u have to get a check valve .

and yes ur ait sensor is to close to the nozzle so ur not getting a true reading, the methanol dosent have enough time to cool the air before it hits the sensor with it that close , move the nozzle further away or u can drill and tap the back of the plenum for the ait sensor and install it there

 

I have a sileniod valve piped in between the pump and the nozzle. That silenoid de-energizes the moment that the boost is lower then the boost contact set point.

If I got a check valve wouldnt it have to be rated at a certain psi?

I see what you mean about the IAT senser, I have to work tommorow anyways so no track time for awhile again..unless I got to a place on sunday I dont wana go to. Its a horrible track!!

 

Alky works great I love it. Made the same passes/time with less boost, same tune as the other week. Went mid 13's last night constantly and it was over 90* outside and humid. Intake temps were as loe as 60* at one point(intake)...WOW is all I can say. I picked up 4mph and 2 tenths in the 1/4 mile just adding 100% alky compared to the blend. I did remove the alky for the trip home for safety reasons.

Remember how I was flooding the car with the alky after a log boosted pull? I found out why!! I was using the same reference vac line that I run the boost silenooid to. Well a while ago I added a check valve in there so that only positive pressure would be read at the boost solinoid. So what was happening was my boost contacts would sence boost and run the pump/exc. Now when I let off boost/throttle, the check valve would do its thing and hold the boost in the vac lines, and my boost sileniod would not open due to the pressure in the lines. This would cause the boost contacts for the pump to stay shut, and keep the alky flowing even after I let off the throttle untill the pressure disipated which was a while..LOL. The reason I noticed this is because at the track I went down the road and back with the pure alky in the car, just to see how it was doing(afr wise). Then I flooded the car again. So when I got back I tossed a meter on the contacts and they were still CLOSED and slowly loosing resistance. So once I remembered that check valve was on the reference line back by the manifold I remeved it and wala the problem was fixed. Sometimes Im a idiot for trying to be fancy with my boost controls.

But besides that the car ran great! Loved the alky. Ran strong. I removed the alky for the ride home for saftey. Since my tune im running was tuned before I had the alky I could do that and still get on the car a bit if need be.

If I get the saftey set up with my boost silenoid then Id like to see what the car can do with more agressive timing or boost..... I plan to make it so that if the flow on the pump stops my boost silenoid will defult and let it run on the wastegate spring only. The spring im using is roughly a 7psi one at the moment. Since Id be tuning the car at 10-11psi then that 7psi spot would be normal and not agressive. In the result that the alky stops it would default and run 7psi. I would notice that difference and know I had a problem. I find my self looking at the AFR guage down the track also just because im perinoid at the moment with not safety proctection set up. But at the moment its a tune that can be ran safely without the alky injection present.

Also thinking of adding just a little water content to the alky. I know that it mixes well. There was a olds/pontiac weekend at the racetrack. I got to talk to some grandnational guys. One had a snow kit on the car. Runs 25/75 meth blend and said that the cooling effects were actually much better then 100% alky and the octane rating was higher because over 80% alky there is no added benifit from the injection system set up. He just mixes by volume with alky from the track and distilled water. Then lets it sit for 8hrs and never had a issue with the blend not holing together(random afr changes). He was running 11's and had a almost stock car, just tuned a tad, the alky injection, and 15psi of boost... I was jelous!!

 

Just made a nice blend 1gal of 23/77% water/meth blend by weight(not volume). Hope to try it out later in the week and see if it works out of if I need to adjust the mix. I still dont like the fact of having 100% meth under the hood and all of the GN guys swear by it that 100% meth is no better then 75+% mix. So ill give it a shot and just play with it till its right. I know my AFR's durring the all meth run was actually about the same as the mix. Solid 11.0-11.3 the who lick down the track.

 

Post slips to compare

 

100 percent is safe , hope to see some vids or time slips !

 

i'm gonna get another cooling mist in july when the t70 goes on . what brand do you have ?