The wideband is a innovation and I have it set on Channel 0. My log reads about 1 point richer than what street lethal is showing.

Got another question, can a bad ignition module cause this? Should I go back to the 369 module vs the DynaMod.

 

on the boost pressure.... are we going off of your logs alone, or do you have an actual gauge tapped into the manifold also?

 

Log alone. No boost gauge is on it. I have a 3 bar map sensor I can put on it and check but I'll test the new tune, air filter straight on the housing, and also tightened all clamps down again this time with a 3/8" ratchet instead of 1/4". Found one tubing where the bead wasnt pushed down pasted the clamp so got that corrected as well.

 

It really sounds like the belt is slipping, usually at 5k rpm or above you will start to notice it I find. Though you would think it would show some signs of belt dust. How does the belt look, does it feel kind of oily on the contact area? I know some brands feel pretty slimy and don't show the dust right away.

 

Hey Tony, no belt dust. I just swapped the belt and to the 4.00 pulley. Belt is tight. Actually, I had to pre-stretch the belt a bit to even get it to fit on the pulley/snout. Procharger key is in their as well...I pulled the bolt off and checked that to make sure I didn't make a stupid mistake.....

Anyways, no dust detected. Pulley is clean, belt is clean, etc.

Intercooler is brand new as well.

 

Remember that boost pressure is just a resistance measure. If the advertised pulley states up to 8-psi, with his engine pegging at 5-psi (with 251 air flow shown in the WUD), with boost pressure dropping off back down to 1-psi with the engine still increasing RPM and air flow (pegging at 255 until letting off the throttle), then his air charge is still there despite boost pressure dropping. If his belt was slipping, I don't think he would be maxing out the air flow calculation at 255, air flow would also reduce in conjunction with boost loss, but air flow keeps rising...

 

Time to pulley down.

 

I do have a 3.7 pulley that I can borrow from a friend but I think it's something else. A 4.25 pulley made 4 psi but was way lean as fuel pump was failing so upgraded fuel pumps and went to a 4" pulley.

 

Well on a stock engine that same pulley produced 6 psi at like 4500, you would think a 383 would be much less. His engine combo is not much different then mine minus the 383 part and I have no problem of increasing boost as the rpm increases.

Anyways here is a chart of D1SC on a stock car with a 4.0" pulley.
RPM--PSI
3000-2.5
3500-3.5
4000-4.8
4500-6
5000-8
5500-10
6000-12

 

Well, I tested the intake and the clamp. I did up the timing but didnt run the full timing as I was really curious to test the intake theory out. Well, out of all three changes, I now have 6 psi all the way to the shift point. Intercooler is working well, only gained 10 degrees for the entire pull which was have been about 60-100mph. So, didnt build any more boost, it stayed from 135 to 141 kpa from 4800 and up. So, sounds like the cam is eating up the boost so might be heading to a 3.7 pulley.

 

I wanna say it was intake/clamp leaking. Boost isnt gonna fly out the exhaust valve. You'd show lean and if you over compensated fuel, you'd foul plugs

 

I believe it was the timing change that did the most good, did you run the timing inverted like I sent over, just not as high as I set it to be? In the original log you had sent me, you reached 5-psi plenty of times, it just didn't hold steady once 4800-RPM and up was realized. If you had a boost leak, it would have never of hit 5-psi to begin with, but this time you gained 1 pound of boost, and it also followed through all the way up. The spark advance at 4800-RPM and up was backward in the original bin, so you weren't making any power up there, and I'm sure the VE Learns you had done for that original bin in that RPM area were skewed and tried to correct for a boosted air/fuel mixture in those cells, but with missing boost. The WB VE Learn in the EBL doesn't correct above 100-kpa, it only corrects up to 100-kpa, so you were running very rich up top with the EBL thinking you were making boost, while it tried maintaining 11.5 fueling. As for the 6-psi, your engine is very efficient on it's own, so definitely don't expect 8-psi with that pulley despite being advertised for that. At any rate, I am glad it is running better. More pulley and timing, then just watch for any knock, and your all set...

 

Lemme throw up another datalog capture from the original bin so everyone can see. His timing is at 36* at 2000-RPM, and his reported air/fuel is 14.5, this is with the car moving. It holds 14.2 air/fuel under 3000-RPM, with Power Enrichment being triggered at 3100-RPM, and his spark advance was at 27* once PE hits and was dropping steadily as RPM continued to rise. His timing was way off...

 

Street Lethal, just tested your tables to see what it would do, it stayed 6 psi. No knock detected but I read the spark the plugs and just started to show detonation so need to back it down some. I also lean it out some...fuel was between 10.8-11.5:1 all the way through the pull. The engine just doesn't seem like its making the power I know it's capable of making, could have been the detonation throwing off the feeling but it doesn't feel right. Might need the pulley changed so it'll keep making boost instead of flat lining in boost. Spark plugs look hot as well...I'm running a 7 degree plug but it may need an 8 degree plug as the ground strap looked hot.

 

I'm not buying the timing theory. As off as it may be you arent gonna lose boost.

Both valves are closed while spark is sent. But car would pick up alot of power.

I made 400 whp on 8 psi and 19 deg. Made 490 with 30 deg same boost

 

Sent you another email with my datalog if you would like to look over it and see what you think.

Thanks man for the help!

 

I really can't see how spark timing is going to affect boost myself, especially 5 a pounds loss. Maybe in a turbo application but the centrifugal blower has a direct link to the crank, the faster you spin it the more it's going to make. Looks like you found your leak anyways, how high you reving to BTW?

 

What do you mean lose boost? I posted everything the engine is doing, the engine isn't losing boost, it isn't maximizing boost. At 5-psi boost pressure the injector duty cycle (60-lb injectors) is at 65% at 4700-RPM, duty cycle continues to 69% but boost pressure falls to 4-psi at 5000-RPM, injector duty cycle keeps maintaining that 69% average a tad above 5000-RPM as boost is now down to 1-psi, and then he lets go of the throttle. What do you mean losing boost pressure? I said earlier that the charge is still there, air flow is pegged in the analysis even while losing boost pressure, but the timing wasn't there to maximize it, and the fueling was skewed. Once I seen the bin and datalog, I knew he wasn't losing boost, the air/flow wasn't going anywhere, it wasn't dropping with boost...

 

I already showed that the air flow remained the same in the datalog, why does everyone continue to say "lose" boost. Boost is only a resistance measure, and there was obviously no resistance at that point in the RPM band with the amount of fuel being consumed, as the engine was using all the air that it needed without the supercharger needing to stress about it. 5-psi was acheived with the bad tune so there was no boost loss, otherwise he would have never reached 5-psi to begin with. With a better tune, he squeezed out one psi more, but more importantly it followed through...

 

He is running a few cubes less. Based on the data I provided about his engine, how much power do you think he is making at 5-psi using the fueling and air flow? Fueling and air flow continues to increase from 5-psi back down to 1-psi. Where is the power loss?

 

Lol psi is measure of restriction and yet you say timing gained 5 psi? At same impeller speed!? Get out of here lol it was a leak somewhere or slip
Or intake flow restriction

 

As soon as I get home tonight I will take a look at it...

 

Gained 5-psi? What the heck are you talking about? He made 5-psi on his own, he stated that in the very first thread. He hit 6-psi after the tune I sent, which is only a gain of ONE. Who here said he "gained" 5-psi lmao? Just goes to show your not paying attention. As for you theory, explain how he made 5-psi in the beginning with a boost loss or flow restriction? That statement is completely ridiculous, not to mention, he gained "1" psi more after removing that very restriction lol? Mmmm, k.

 

He said he had 4-5 psi by 4000-4500 rpm and then booom! Its all gone from 5000 to redline!

And now you say add timing now he sees 6 psi to redline?

I'll tell you what happened. He changed intake and messed with clamps. He now has boost to redline. Intake filter side on compressor stopped it from making more boost with more rpm. Or he also had a leak. Thats it.

Timing had nothing to do with it

 

IDK I played with my timing to the extreme quite a bit and never seen that happen before. I'm thinking it was that one clamp or maybe the intake track collapsing or just the 90* restricting the air to the blower.

 

Justin, just listen to me for one second and stop arguing. I will put this into a turbo perspective for you. You said earlier that you make 400 horsepower at 8-psi and 19* of timing, but made 490 horsepower at the same 8-psi but with 30* of timing, correct? Now, you had the SAME amount of air in that chamber at 8-psi in both instances, but you CONSUMED more of that air by altering your timing, correct? It had to of, obviously, because horsepower is air and fuel, and you gained 90 horsepower by just upping the timing with air that was already there. That air in both of your instances was ALREADY there, you just MAXIMIZED it, correct? Your asking something you already answered, don't you see that? Yenko HAS 5-psi worth of air in the chamber at a certain RPM, the air flow in the analysis underlines this, but the lower timing causes it to CONSUME LESS of that air charge because the engine is only making x amount of horsepower at that timing level with that much air flow. Ask yourself where that air that ISN'T being consumed is going in both a turbo and supercharger application. The former is being used to spin the turbine, and the other is shooting right out of the exhaust valve, and not because of overlap, but because it wasn't being consumed. Do you understand what I am saying now...?

Again, it's not a boost loss, just an inefficient engine at that timing...

 

I understand that and i think the wording is abit off

I dont like the word consumed. Air is there in my example. Timing changes when the pressure rise starts on combustion and how much cyl pressure is developed and transfered to piston movement before exhaust valve opens and exhaust gas is spent out the pipes.
We changed nothing but timing and power changed. Air was consumed either way, but with timing we were able to make it transform to work on piston instead of heat out exhaust

In the OP's case, the air was NOT there. It was lost. Boost gauge and map sensor logged 0 psi. It was not goin out exhaust. It was goin out of the intake cold side piping OR never able to be made because of the compressor suction being limited by the intake pipe amd filter.

To test this put your original tune back in and see if you have boost. Or keep timin up and put intake filter back on and put your clamp back into original condition before you messed with it. Either way you will see the same result

We had this same issue on a customer car at my friends shop. Coldside piping coupler clamp was loose. No matter what we did boost would not go above 6. Just flatlinedz Tighten clamp saw 11 immediately.

My car sucked a coupler shut at 5500 rpm once. Had full boost up to that point and then motor lost boost and broke up like a limiter. Only happened at over 20 psi. Strange things happen

 

But right here is where I disagree with you based on what the WUD in the EBL is telling us. He reaches 5-psi no problem in the original tune, the tune he originally sent me with the bad timing table. In that bad tune (which I posted pics of) if you calculate the amount of air and fuel being consumed at 1-psi AFTER it hits 5-psi, not when it hits before 5-psi (because it goes to 1,2,3,4,5...4,3,2,1). At that last 1-psi, he is making MORE horsepower than when it hit 5-psi. The charge still has to be there until he lets off, but because of the engine running inefficiently because of that poor timing, there is less of a boost restriction because, well, where is the restriction? He needed a timing tweak to maximize it, and if he wants more boost then he needs a better pulley. Again, he hit 5-psi with that bad tune from the getgo before I even got involved, he just didn't understand why the gauge went down to 1-psi after reaching 5-psi. When looking at the analysis in the WUD, the air flow keeps increasing when that happens, so the blower was still forcing air, but not efficiently. Also, he only gained 1-psi when the timing was corrected by the way, that really isn't a big deal, but what is a big deal though is that the boost stayed at 6psi all the way through, it didn't get any lower than that this time, and I credit the engine running more efficiently due to the timing fix. You don't have to agree with me, I just want you to understand what I am saying...

 

So in theory, let's compare a supercharger with a turbo. A turbo spins much faster than a supercharger, so maintaining 8-psi when the engine isn't calling for it would be much easier to do with a turbo charger over a supercharger. Now, the real question here is, what happens to a naturally aspirated engine's vacuum as RPM increases and timing is low? Does it maintain 0" at wide open throttle, or does it start to regain some vacuum due to the inefficient tune and engine at higher RPM? Let's use Yenko's engine (with the bad tune, the one with the backward timing) as an example, but naturally aspirated. Let's say it started to increase in RPM from 36* at 1900-RPM, down to 28* at 5000-RPM. Would anyone know if the vacuum gauge (not boost gauge) would stay at 0, or would it start to regain some vacuum as RPM rises? Lets say, theoretically, that the vacuum gauge would go from 0 to 3" at 5000-RPM with bad timing. Heck, what happens when an engine is idling at 800-RPM with 22* timing and it gets lowered down to 12*, is vacuum effected? Back to the example, let's say the inefficient naturally aspirated engine increases to 3" of vacuum from 0 when reaching 5000-RPM, now, with that same poorly tuned engine, slap a supercharger with an 8-psi pulley onto it. What would happen? Well, in theory, boost would rise with RPM up to that 5000-RPM point when the naturally aspirated engine started gaining vacuum again because of the low timing, but then that same boost would "appear" to be pulled back (lose) because now it is adding an 8-psi pulley to an engine producing 3" of vacuum at that RPM. In this same scenario, a turbo would be able to overcome any increase in vacuum with low timing because it is spinning much faster than a supercharger that relies on RPM...

 

I dont agree because what you are sayin is wrong. Fixed compressor speed doesnt magically go 1-2-4-5-4-3-2-1 and now see 1-2-3-4-5-6-6-6-6-6-6 to redline.

Basically you are sayin charge was there at 1 psi then after timing more charge is created to "back up" in the intake tract to create boost pressure on logs again. As boost is a meaure of restriction....

I'm sorry that is just wrong

And as far as making more power at 1 psi than 4... What rpm did it see 4 psi? What rpm did it see 1 psi? Whats the equation of hp and rpm? Do the math you'll understand why that is possible. Lol

 

I already did...

135-kpa (5-psi), 251 g/sec, 65% Duty Cycle @ 4700-RPM...

123-kpa (3-psi), 255 g/sec, 65% Duty Cycle @ 5200-RPM...

105-kpa (1-psi), 255 g/sec, 60% Duty Cycle @ 5300-RPM (he was letting off at this point)...

Would you like to crunch the horsepower numbers, or should I...?

 

Seriously?

You just said he was making more hp at 4 psi than 1 and now you are posting 60% duty at 5300 and hes letting off and 65% at 4700.

Which is it?

No wait never mind this aint going anywhere. I'm done

 

Nice dodge. Once again you are not listening, it dropped to 60% because he was letting off of the engine at that point, but it was still pegged and recording 255 g/sec at that point. Once again, would you like to crunch the horsepower numbers at those three points, or should I? Boost loss lol? Seriously lol? Think again, it would have reflected in the air flow if it did. I guess you are done...

 

Lmao dodge. Why dont you go add more timing to your 9 sec 305? Oh wait you dodged that thread permanently. You really need you stop talking about forced induction cars....

 

im still lost too. if you spun a supercharged engine with a pto off a tractor, the thing will make boost without a distributor installed at all. i just dont see what timing has to do with it, boost is a measure of intake/head flow along with cam profile.

 

Ahh, the final attempt from someone who admits they are clueless. Just by resorting to that nonsense without providing ANY calculations on your part shows how much your really know, nothing. Let's take it from the top, 525 Horsepower with 60-lb injectors and 5 pounds of boost at 65% Duty Cycle at 4700-RPM, 525 Horsepower with 60-lb injectors and 3 pounds of boost at 65% Duty Cycle at 5200-RPM, 480 Horsepower with 60-lb injectors and 1 pound of boost at 60% Duty Cycle LETTING OFF with g/sec still pegged. I quoted exactly what the datalog states. Yup it was a silicone connector, he was losing boost out of control, oh yes, that is what it was all along lol...

[/done with you]

 

Survey says you said this....
Now claim 480 hp at 1 psi. Last i checked 480 < 525. So we automatically ASSume he was letting off and thats the missing hp..

You really are something else. Lmao questioning MY intelligence on the subject when my track record speaks for itself with RESULTS lol
You are a joke sir

 

in my mind, the only way to increase manifold vacuum at wot would be to have a restriction somewhere such as the throttlebody or air filter.

 

You're right.....



Timing changed his boost NONE. The timing changes you gave him are NOT related to him seeing boost. I think street Lethal is confused to the changes he made relating to boost.


MAP sensor is in the intake.(before the combustion chamber) so what happens there will NOT change the MAP reading at all. That supercharger is spinning just the same....... It just was leaking it somewhere!

 

Dig, the only thing we should be looking at is the fuel. Wideband is reporting 11.7 - 12.0 within the boost levels he reached, he peaked at 5-psi. At 5-psi he was making about 525 Horsepower just prior to the air flow being pegged in the analysis, with pegged being 255, and it stays at a 255 air flow until he lets off the throttle. As RPM's increase, his boost starts to decrease, but fuel consumption stays the same (65% Duty Cycle with 60-lb injectors) and he is still making 525 Horsepower at 3-psi. He lets off when it comes down to 1-psi with the air flow still pegged at 255, but the reason for the 5% decrease in Duty Cycle is because it is the byproduct of electronics, the instant you let go of the throttle your Duty Cycle decreases (decel), and the WUD happened to catch that at 1-psi and 60% Duty Cycle, but it would have stayed at 65% regardless if he kept in it because the air flow was still pegged at 255 that point. Anyway, 1-psi is normally 7% of your naturally aspirated horsepower, 7.5 psi is 50%, and 15-psi is 100%, this is why we say 15-psi doubles your horsepower. Now, at 5-psi he was making 525 Horsepower, which should give him 360 naturally aspirated horsepower being that 5-psi is 35%. Now, back to 1-psi being a 7% increase. If he is making 360 naturally aspirated, and 1-psi adds 7%, 7% of 360 is only 25 Horsepower, and that would make 385 Horsepower at 1-psi of boost pressure. At 1-psi, the WUD captured 490 Horsepower with him letting go of the throttle. Do you really think he was losing boost at that point?

No boost was lost, the math does NOT lie...

 

Hp numbers are a little bit off due to my setup. I have the 60s at 54 psi instead of 43.5 psi flowing 68 lbs and my pressure regulator is a 1:1 psi vs boost reference so at 5-6 psi of boost, it should be 60 psi of fuel pressure which would be 70.5 lb/hr injectors at that point.

 

I wasn't even home last night when writing all of that, let me correct some of the numbers so people will understand better. The original 525 Horsepower figure I posted was based on a 75% Duty Cycle, you were lower at 65%. Below is both the corrected 60-lb numbers and now the new 70-lb numbers...;

This is what the analysis was showing from the datalog;

480 Horsepower at 5-psi, 65% Duty Cycle, 60-lb injectors...
480 Horsepower at 3-psi, 65% Duty Cycle, 60-lb injectors...
440 Horsepower at 1-psi, 60% Duty Cycle, 60-lb injectors...
355 Horsepower naturally aspirated...

This is what horsepower would reflect if there were a boost loss, and if you base boosted horsepower using 1-psi as 7%, 3-psi as 21%, and 5-psi as 35% of the naturally aspirated horsepower number which is 355. This is pulley only, not what the datalog is showing..

480 (35% of 355) Horsepower at 5-psi, 65% Duty Cycle, 60-lb injectors...
430 (21% of 355) Horsepower at 3-psi, 54% Duty Cycle, 60-lb injectors...
380 (07% of 355) Horsepower at 1-psi, 52% Duty Cycle, 60-lb injectors...
355 Horsepower naturally aspirated...

In the two example above, I darkened the second set of Duty Cycle numbers because he was not losing Duty Cycle in the actual datalog despite the lower boost pressure number, it remained at 65%. Boost is just a resistance measure, he was still making the same power. The fueling does not lie, 65% is there at 5-psi, and it even reaches 69% at 3-psi at one point (which means power increase at lower boost), but for the sake of this argument I kept it at 65%. Now, with the corrected fuel pressure using 70-lb injectors...;

This is what the analysis was showing from the datalog;

560 Horsepower at 5-psi, 65% Duty Cycle, 70-lb injectors...
560 Horsepower at 3-psi, 65% Duty Cycle, 70-lb injectors...
520 Horsepower at 1-psi, 60% Duty Cycle, 70-lb injectors...
415 Horsepower naturally aspirated...

This is what horsepower would reflect if there were a boost loss, and if you base boosted horsepower using 1-psi as 7%, 3-psi as 21%, and 5-psi as 35% of the naturally aspirated horsepower number which is 355. This is pulley only, not what the datalog is showing..

560 (35% of 415) Horsepower at 5-psi, 65% Duty Cycle, 70-lb injectors...
502 (21% of 415) Horsepower at 3-psi, 58% Duty Cycle, 70-lb injectors...
444 (07% of 415) Horsepower at 1-psi, 52% Duty Cycle, 70-lb injectors...
415 Horsepower naturally aspirated

Again, Duty Cycle did not budge, so Horsepower was unaffected with lower boost numbers.

 

Yenko, I will look at what you sent me now and give my two cents worth. I'm done with this thread though, so if you need any help later on just shoot me a PM...

 

If we had a boost gage in the car, would the needle be going down at 5k?

 

X2

 

Of course it would, but that is because you are losing resistance, not power. Boost pressure is a resistance measure. All that means is that as the RPM increases after 5-psi (in his situation), the blower has less resistance to maintain the same air flow the engine is demanding, with the result being the same duty cycle. With the backward timing, the engine wasn't calling for more air up top, it was hitting a brick wall, which is why his Duty Cycle remained at an average of 65%, with boost pressure slowly lowering. With the new timing, his boost pressure remained a constant 6-psi, and his Duty Cycle more than likely continued to rise during that datalog. Perhaps it is the way I am explaining it, as everyone here seems to think boost pressure is the only factor. His fuel did not change, and with backward timing, his engine wasn't calling for more, so it was satisfied with 65% Duty Cycle and maintained that at 28* at 5000-RPM and up, and the blower had less resistance...

 

Timing will not change booooost when both valves are closed!!! Ignition events do not call for air flow!!! Nothing to do with it at all! As Dig said you can spin a motor manually fast enough to make boost with no distributor in the car and not even turned ignition on!

Duty cycle does not predict accurate hp numbers without knowing fuel consuption bsfc or air fuel. I can max out 127's on my setup on pig rich air fuel and have 200 less hp than proper tune and 10-20% less duty cycle. I know cuz we done it on the dyno and at the track

He changed air filter/intake tract. That was the restriction, blower could not make boost due to lack of incoming air. Motor is rich at 10.8-11.4 air fuel. Duty cycle is misleading

 

Two things, for one you said you were "done", so why respond to me? Two, his fueling is effected because of the changes I did to the bin, as well as any VE Learns he might have added on his own before even running the engine. You can argue and argue all day long about it and try to get you point across, but the datalog does not lie. He maintained the commanded WB setting afr in the original tune with the bad timing and it stayed at 11.7-12.0 as per the WUD analysis, his air flow was constantly pegged at 255 g/sec, his duty cycle did not budge and stayed at 65%, so the power he made at 5-psi was there at 5-psi based on 65% duty cycle, and it stood there after 5-psi and did not change, despite showing a pressure loss. You keep interjecting your nonsense about "maxing" duty cycle, and you did this and you did that, I really don't give a crap what you did, the numbers don't lie. What you have to say is irrelevant to me, again, the math does not lie. If it is your choice to point towards a boost leak, be my guest, but I already posted what the duty cycle would have been if that were the case, and it wasn't...

 

This thing should make peak hp around 6500 and put down 550+ at the wheels with a 4" pulley.... what size lower?

 

I respond because i'm not gonna let absolute garbage bs tech info get spewed around this forum for others to read to be misguided!

The logs are bein misinterpreted. Your air fuel data does not match what the op is telling me and us in this thread. He states its 1 pt richer than what you are showing.

The air flow pegged doesnt tell us anything. 255 g/s is easy to peg! At 5 psi we have no way to tell if it was 300-400 g/s or just 256 g/s. a pegged reading doesnt tell us anything

If you truly believe this motor was sucking blower dry, causing boost reading to fall from 4-5 to 0-0.5, and then just a change in timing magically enabled boost to be created because now he says he sees 5-6 psi to redline, i want some of that stuff you are smoking! You completely dismiss the fact he changed intake and messed with clamps!

OP do another log please with the intake filter stuff back on car with Streets timing and verify what happened? Along with whatever other things you did to any hose coupler clamps