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Thinking I'm going to get rid of the 521 BBF in a few years and planning on getting a 1999 5.3L LS out of a truck. I'm planning on going with a twin turbo setup to utilize the dual 3" exhaust system I currently have. Main reason is that I'm not "bored" but want something that doesnt drink gas going around and idles part throttle is alittle less "insane" lol.
I run full tubular Moly Kmember, aftermarket gauges etc
So Motor plans: going CHEAP!
1999 5.3 LS, iron block, stock OEM aluminum heads, 150k on the motor.
LS6 cam swap (Maybe) or basic cam upgrade.
Swap out OEM springs for LS6 beehive springs due to the boost
Comes with OEM cable throttle TB
Not even going to take the heads off!
Intake: I'm undecided here, I currently run the FAST 2.0 System with the carb style TB good for 1200hp But its not designed for boost. Im gona see if I can run the FAST 2.0 with the Boost and maybe get a carb intake or ditch the TB, run the 2.0 ECM and get the LS controller for timing. Or I can keep the OEM 5.3 harness and ECM and get it flashed and add a Boost Map Sensor. What is the best option do you think? Keep the OEM EFI intake, swap it to a carb style?
ECM: Motor comes with OEM harness and ECM, Im currently run EZ EFI 2.0 with CARB TB on my 521, but doesnt do boost that I know of. Better to run OEM stuff or the FAST 2.0? How expensive is to tune the OEM ECM?
TRANS:
Keeping the 2004R as its built for 800hp all day and just put on the brand new $800 billet converter with lockup with a 2400 stall.
COOLING:
Getting the OEM rad and fully dressed motor with the engine so maybe I can keep the RAD and make it work, or I'll step it up to a universal 31x19 once I see the hose input/outputs on the motor.
TURBO SETUP: Thought about the single turbo vs the twin and figure the dual turbo would be better as i would have to replace less of the exhaust. Thinking of making my own from the OEM truck manifolds but might go with a kit if I can make most of it work. I would prob run an IC but I also have a meth injection kit that I'm not using and could use that to save alot of space. I'm not looking for insane power and since I don't plan on upgrading the motor for a while I'm thinking I would like 550-600hp crank with low boost of about 8-10psi. I'm looking at kits for a 86-92 supra as it puts the turbos in the area of the battery trays. I could relocate the battery and its not a problem.
The twin turbo specs are: T4 GT35 Turbo and Wastegate:
4" Air Inlet, 2.5" Compressed Air Outlet
Standard T4 Turbine Housing Flange
3" Vband Exhaust Outlet
Journal Bearing
Oil and Water Cooled
6-25 PSI Working Pressure
.70 A/R Compressor
.68 A/R Turbine
46mm Wastegate 8 PSI
Any help would be greatly appreciated. My biggest concern will be the tuning/ECM part of it. Fabricating is not a problem lol.
So I called and talked to FAST and there is no way to make the EZ series EFI boost friendly. getting the XFI would be like 2K and that is boost friendly. Not gona happen. I looked into and figured out how I can convert the OEM harness to 4 wire hookup but have not found how to integrate the Mallory 685 box into the setup. I'm not even sure if I can use an aftermarket box with the OEM ECM, besides the MSD but thats a standalone unit for carb applications and I want to keep it EFI.
Anybody know how to integrate a high powered CD box with the OEM coils and still allow the ECM to have full control of the ignition?
Sounds like a nice project, ive been tempted to do the gt35 twins too. Nice fit.
I would suggest a dual spring over the LS6. Also stock PCM is perfectly fine for this. no need to use the Mallory box. Just pick up efilive or HPtuners. If you do EFIlive I have no problems converting mine to a manual tune (assuming its a manual vb 200r4) and sending you a copy.
5.3L, LS1 intake, LS6 cam stock heads here. Currently 10psi with a GT45
So I called and talked to FAST and there is no way to make the EZ series EFI boost friendly. getting the XFI would be like 2K and that is boost friendly. Not gona happen. I looked into and figured out how I can convert the OEM harness to 4 wire hookup but have not found how to integrate the Mallory 685 box into the setup. I'm not even sure if I can use an aftermarket box with the OEM ECM, besides the MSD but thats a standalone unit for carb applications and I want to keep it EFI.
Anybody know how to integrate a high powered CD box with the OEM coils and still allow the ECM to have full control of the ignition?
microsquirt or the megasquirt gold box plug and play
Sounds like a nice project, ive been tempted to do the gt35 twins too. Nice fit.
I would suggest a dual spring over the LS6. Also stock PCM is perfectly fine for this. no need to use the Mallory box. Just pick up efilive or HPtuners. If you do EFIlive I have no problems converting mine to a manual tune (assuming its a manual vb 200r4) and sending you a copy.
5.3L, LS1 intake, LS6 cam stock heads here. Currently 10psi with a GT45
Jay
Which programmer is better? I was looking at the HP tuner.
My 2004r is a auto VB with manual control, built by CK performance. Not sure if that matters in the tune. I used to tune with moates with the OEM 1987 TPI PCM years ago. But need to brush up on my tuning lol.
How much power you making? I want to be at about 600hp so thinking 8-10psi. Won't go over 12-14 , and I know 8psi will make about 523hp with an all stock motor.
Sorry just realized you posted the link. I don't see its boost ready in the description, just the NOS. Whole point of this motor is to boost it otherwise I'm downgrading from a 521 with 550hp and 650 tq.
Sorry just realized you posted the link. I don't see its boost ready in the description, just the NOS. Whole point of this motor is to boost it otherwise I'm downgrading from a 521 with 550hp and 650 tq.
just like any megasquirt system it is boost ready , systems come with map sensors good for 21 psi or 44 psi of boost
Wow, hobbyist project is now worth $1,200? The code still has a LONG way to go for that price. Does it even have full automotive grade parts in it now? A lot of junk on the web only has commercial or industrial grade parts. One reason I still love the GM stuff so much. Their quality and testing is way above the aftermarket stuff. I would go the GM PCM route with an add on software kit as mentioned.
Wow, hobbyist project is now worth $1,200? The code still has a LONG way to go for that price. Does it even have full automotive grade parts in it now? A lot of junk on the web only has commercial or industrial grade parts. One reason I still love the GM stuff so much. Their quality and testing is way above the aftermarket stuff. I would go the GM PCM route with an add on software kit as mentioned.
that is not a standard ms3 , efi source builds those just for the ls swaps , look that the connectors and such they use , its far from the diy system that the basic megasquirt is
Wow, hobbyist project is now worth $1,200? The code still has a LONG way to go for that price. Does it even have full automotive grade parts in it now? A lot of junk on the web only has commercial or industrial grade parts. One reason I still love the GM stuff so much. Their quality and testing is way above the aftermarket stuff. I would go the GM PCM route with an add on software kit as mentioned.
I don't mind modifying the stock harness at all… would actually probably enjoy it in a sick way. But The tuning aspect is worry some.
How does one integrate the 2bar Map sensor? I'm picking the complete motor up tmrw so I don't have it in front of me but Idk if its a MAF style motor, I know its a 1999 out of a silverado, Cable TB, No EGR in the manifolds and has 150K on it, video of it running… it sounds great. Does it just replace the OEM MAP sensor with the 2 bar one and then tune it with a conversion for the MAP tables?
Also I can't get a definitive injector plug style for the OEM injectors but I would like to swap them out for a 42lb ford green tops and just cut the OEM connectors off and swap them in. I know I would need to modify the fuel crossover and spacer the fuel rails.
Also from what Ive read the OEM fuel system is a return less style. How do I convert the OEM fuel rails to return style? Not a fan of the return less and Im setup with a return style external pump setup. I run a Holley dominator 1400hp dual external pump for EFI so I know I got the fuel! Would it be a problem running the injectors at a lower pressure like standard 43.5 vs the 58psi?
WEll figured out it was a return style fuel system and it does have a MAF. I have no idea if its even worth trying to modify the OEM fuel rail/regulator to use my aeromotive EFI with a boost/vacuum reference port. I would like to run 1 line to the fuel rail, (maybe block off the OEM regulator) and run 1 line out the other rail to my regulator that way I can reuse my return line setup, adjustable boost referenced regulator. But bending and modifying the fuel rails for 42lb ford or Bosch injectors will be a PITA and might not be worth it.
I wonder if the MAF will be a problem with the boost…. hmm.
Nice. Ive read and seen some of these LM7 builds and if it is a solid running engine, chances are everything is fine inside. In fact, great condition. In every one Ive seen apart, you can still see the cross hatch pattern on the walls, and are still in spec when I checked with my dial bore gauge. (100k miles)
I'd be on the fence about not pulling heads... but again, if its a good runner, whats the point unless you need to take em off.
9.5:1 compression is .5 - 1pt lower than the LS1 motors and more boost friendly. I might pull the heads but having to buy the tq to yield bolts or upgrade to ARP is $$ and not going for that unless I have to. We will see! The ARP head studs might be a nice upgrade if I can get them for Xmass or something.
Figured out my 2 options for intake/fuel rails.
1.) get aftermarket fuel rails (guy on ebay sells them for $120) that way I can just plumb it into my aeromotive but honestly they look like the cheap $60 fuel rails. Get some new connectors and aftermarket flow matched 42lb injectors and figure out the spacing of the fuel rails from the intake (prob .610" spacers)
Guy who says they fit but look like cheap LS1 fuel rails
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LM7-LQ4-LQ9-LQ4-Fuel-Rails-8AN-RED-high-flow-w-Brackets-Only-5-3-6-0-Chevy-/131598397349?hash=item1ea3e02fa5&vxp=mtr
2.) Fuel injector connection just emailed me back saying they have drop in 42lb bosches for the OEM intake! Whoop whoop, but $389!! Not sure if I would run the aftermarket fuel rails still for ease of plumbing but opt for the cheap $60 ones and get them to work with fittings and hose from summit.
Option 2 saves me the cost of getting the new injector plugs and maybe new fuel rails so the cost might be worth it. But then I'm stuck with the oem style plug injectors… if I upgrade down the line I will still have to mod the harness which would take prob 1 hr and cost $50 or less anyways.
Still no idea on the MAF with boost. Will have to look into it.
Which programmer is better? I was looking at the HP tuner.
My 2004r is a auto VB with manual control, built by CK performance. Not sure if that matters in the tune. I used to tune with moates with the OEM 1987 TPI PCM years ago. But need to brush up on my tuning lol.
How much power you making? I want to be at about 600hp so thinking 8-10psi. Won't go over 12-14 , and I know 8psi will make about 523hp with an all stock motor.
Lots seem to like HP, I have always used EFIlive so I have no experience. If i were to start over I would go with HP i think from what ive read. I just have knowledge with EFIlive and im boring my friends and his PCM until his car is running. After that I will end up going with either MS-gold or MS3-Pro with a secondary trans controller.
I havnt dyno'd or ran the car. on 10psi my *** dyno says its gotta be in the 460-480whp range. It feels more stout than my old 383 LT1 NA car that made 411whp. But I also dont have a tire on the car so its hard to tell.
Also my fuel system is 80lb injectors, summit adjustable fuel pressure reg, summit inline filter and a single Walbro intank 450lph E85 pump. Seems to be doing the job well.
Lots seem to like HP, I have always used EFIlive so I have no experience. If i were to start over I would go with HP i think from what ive read. I just have knowledge with EFIlive and im boring my friends and his PCM until his car is running. After that I will end up going with either MS-gold or MS3-Pro with a secondary trans controller.
I havnt dyno'd or ran the car. on 10psi my *** dyno says its gotta be in the 460-480whp range. It feels more stout than my old 383 LT1 NA car that made 411whp. But I also dont have a tire on the car so its hard to tell.
Also my fuel system is 80lb injectors, summit adjustable fuel pressure reg, summit inline filter and a single Walbro intank 450lph E85 pump. Seems to be doing the job well.
Jay
Intersting that your running 80 lb injectors… seems rather large for 400rwhp. I know that the 42lb at GM 58psi will be more like a 49-50lb injector and good for 600 crank hp at 80-85 DC. which is about 8-12psi on a stock motor. Of course with 8psi of boost the regulator will bump fuel pressure 1:1 so its more like 66psi fuel pressure but I think flow stays the same due to the inlet psi countering? I don't want to paint myself into a corner with the injector sizing, but worried about idle and row RPM drivability with a mostly stock motor that originally had like 21-23lb injectors and now has 50lb injectors. And getting it to run right down low. So you can't go too large with out bumping the HP output of the OEM NA motor before boost. I think a cam would be worth 30-50hp and help with the car being alittle sluggish before boost, and help increase total HP. I know that the LS6 cam will work but worried that the OEM truck intake Won't rev past 5300ish even with the boost. Going to a LS1 intake just isn't in the card right now when they are $250-300 used.
I don't think more than 500whp is needed for the street… thats just crazy. I have 550hp now and I never get to push the car on the street… its just too much and don't want to lose control on the road.
Looks Like i'll be prob going with HPT. Got any pics of the motor setup?
If you were running a built motor looking for 15-25 psi and 800-1500 hp then by all means go holley hp/dominator or equivalent fast/bigstuff/etc
They have better timing tables for boost than hptuners oem lsx stuff and alot of nice built in features
Yea But I won't be pushing 800hp lol. Im looking for a low boost fun build for the street. Hence the truck intake for lots of low RPM grunt. I think 600 crank hp would satisfy me with 8-10psi of twin turbo boost. I can always crank it up alittle more if I want some but then limited by the intake,cam, and injectors.
How do you guys tap into the Engine oiling system for the turbo oiling and Drainage? Do you guys recommend upgrading the 150k OEM stock oil pump with a high volume one? Damn pumps are $156.
I read an article where they tried to blow up a junk 160K 5.3 motor. 24psi later they bend a pushrod and thought they killed it but a tear down showed the bend pushrod and bad lifter. They replaced it and it fired right up. At 24psi it made 1300hp and 1100tq, stock bottom short block (new oil pump), they did replace the cam, heads and intake and a 76 single turbo setup. When I say stock I mean the OEM rotating kit (they filed the rings for larger gap and threw them back in) and put back all the original main/rod and cam bearings. So basically the short block was all OEM minus the cam and oil pump (was a stock replacement not even a HV)
I went with 80lb because they are pretty well the same price as a 60lb injector plus I wanted the room to grow. I also only run 42psi base pressure so my pump isnt working so hard. I figure on 15psi which I plan on bumping up to the car should be in the 550whp range.
Here is a pic of my setup. I have a build thread a few threads down from this.
Originally Posted by customblackbird
Intersting that your running 80 lb injectors… seems rather large for 400rwhp. I know that the 42lb at GM 58psi will be more like a 49-50lb injector and good for 600 crank hp at 80-85 DC. which is about 8-12psi on a stock motor. Of course with 8psi of boost the regulator will bump fuel pressure 1:1 so its more like 66psi fuel pressure but I think flow stays the same due to the inlet psi countering? I don't want to paint myself into a corner with the injector sizing, but worried about idle and row RPM drivability with a mostly stock motor that originally had like 21-23lb injectors and now has 50lb injectors. And getting it to run right down low. So you can't go too large with out bumping the HP output of the OEM NA motor before boost. I think a cam would be worth 30-50hp and help with the car being alittle sluggish before boost, and help increase total HP. I know that the LS6 cam will work but worried that the OEM truck intake Won't rev past 5300ish even with the boost. Going to a LS1 intake just isn't in the card right now when they are $250-300 used.
I don't think more than 500whp is needed for the street… thats just crazy. I have 550hp now and I never get to push the car on the street… its just too much and don't want to lose control on the road.
Looks Like i'll be prob going with HPT. Got any pics of the motor setup?
Yea But I won't be pushing 800hp lol. Im looking for a low boost fun build for the street. Hence the truck intake for lots of low RPM grunt. I think 600 crank hp would satisfy me with 8-10psi of twin turbo boost. I can always crank it up alittle more if I want some but then limited by the intake,cam, and injectors.
The truck intake fits under the hood in a thirdgen?
The truck intake fits under the hood in a thirdgen?
I think it really depends on what mounts are used. I measured on my car and it looks like it will fit with the spohn mounts. Im actually going to try to fit a truck intake this winter since it will give me a decent idea on what needs to be done for a pro-flo to fit.
Ppl underestimate the truck intakes. Despite being somewhat ugly they are some of the best intakes available for a street strip car. They have high flow and longer runners for actual torque that most lsx lack
I like the truck intakes. I think they are great all around. The less parts to swap the better. It is good to know they can fit. I may be swapping one into a second gen which has slightly less space between the engine and hood.
What are the idle injector BPWs with the 80 #/hr injectors? Stock cam?
I just picked the motor up today! Bad news I found at least 3 broken exhaust bolts from the previous owner. I like the truck intake bc of the tq and lower rpm fun. But I did get a complete motor and will see how many exhaust bolts i can get out without breaking them.
Any tips on how to get the broken ones out? Figure drilling them out and prob need to helicoil them. Stupid steel bolts in aluminum heads.
I did the same as above. I was pretty lucky with mine as the stud was broken above the surface. Welded a nut on until it was glowing, let it cool and it came out like butter.
Wow, hobbyist project is now worth $1,200? The code still has a LONG way to go for that price. Does it even have full automotive grade parts in it now?
The newer 'extra' code now has a lot more functionality than anything stock, and will compete with just about any aftermarket system. Since it's written in C, development time on new features is quicker and easier.
The MS2 hardware is sketchy, but the Microsquirt and Microsquirt module (what I used) is very solid:
Plus it has a faster processor than any stock system. I believe it's $275
The PNP stuff linked above is marked up because it's PNP. It typically comes with a base tune specific for the application, shiny new GM connectors, etc. That's worth the markup for some people. Not me.
I debated the MS2 vs using a stock PCM to save some cash. IMO I would look for a used copy of EFI or HP. The reliability is there, you dont need to buy extra stuff to run knock sensors, you have great control on the IAC etc. I highly debated a microsquirt and was worried about the every day reliability so went with the stock PCM. it is really hard to beat for what they can do.
I do plan on going with the Gold or MS3-pro but they offer so much more than the old dinosaur MS2 based stuff.
75$ diyautotune 3 bar gm map. 20$ for v6 plastic type iat
Thats all you need for stock pcm. As long as you have 730 ecm and speed density harness. Works great. What more function and features do ppl really need?
75$ diyautotune 3 bar gm map. 20$ for v6 plastic type iat
Thats all you need for stock pcm. As long as you have 730 ecm and speed density harness. Works great. What more function and features do ppl really need?
For LSx PCM - 411 and variants?
How are you adapting the 730 ECM to the LSx 24x wheel. I had to make a piece of HW that would decode the 24x teeth and spit out a dizzy signal to the 730, then it would read back, and send out the 8 signals to the LSx coils.
For lsx thats different. Forgot this was about lsx
You'll have 499$ min for hptuners and cable
150-200$ for harness and pcm 411. That could vary i got a deal on my fbody harness and 411 around 150$ i think it was.
Adapt it to the stock thirdgen harness requires work but not expensive. Just cut out old wires and then need to solder some connections and tape/loom it up. Extend lsx harness if you want pcm under dash like stock thirdgens
I actually think I'm only going to run a 2bar map sensor with mine, deciding to spend $15 for aftermarket plug and play or $64 for GM version plug and play from summit.
Just wanted to thank everyone thus far! Had the day off today so I tore into the motor big time. I also figured out how to remove the broken exhaust studs theyl way u guys said to bit I read it before u posted on Google. Was kind of a PITA as I couldn't get the 1/4" nut to weld strong enough and they would just twist off (12 nuts later i was furious!). I could see that I wasn't getting a good contact weld with the broken bolt even after drilling the bolt alittle to get new metal. I ended up using larger 3/8 nuts and was able to get a good weld to the stud since the hole was larger for the MIG wire ( .030 wire in Eastwood 175 mig). I got all 3 studs out! So much easier than drilling and crap... love it! My dad was even shocked when I handed him the 3 bolts... and it only took about 1 hr.
Had a fun time trying to figure out how to get the mechanical thermo fan off lol but got it. Do they sell threaded caps to cover the threads sticking out of the water pump pulley? Also need to get EGR block off plate and EVAP cover plate.
Got the complete ECM harness labeled and off the motor, removed the AC, EGR, exhaust manifolds, starter, motor mounts, coil brackets and packs, fuel rails and anything I didn't want. Cleaned up the exhaust flange sealing area and taped it off. And cleaned 16 years of oil and gunk off the lower 1/2 of the intake, around the injectors, (so the **** doesn't fall in the head) valve covers and around that area.
Measured the pan which is 8.5" deep at the rear sump... might look into the Chevy performance muscle car pan swap kit for $180ish for a slightly shorter pan bc the fbody/holley ones are crazy expensive.
Motors much smaller now.
Couple of questions tho... I think my heads have that knotch requiring the graphite gaskets vs the MLS. Does anyone know if it's even worth it if your doing low psi boost?
Anyone who's done the LS swap can you measure the distance between where the trans meets the block (surface) to the beginning (rear) of the motor mount? My Trans is prob not in the stock location and I'm trying to figure out if the motor mount will be foward (radiator side) or rearward closer to the trans compared to where my factory moly SBC kmember is. I don't want to have to move the trans bc of the driveshaft so trying to get and idea if it's 1" foward or backwards?
Also with the stock ECM with HP tuners and no CATS, do I need to use both forward and rear 02 sensors or can I just use the forward ones in each turbo header?
The stock PCM does have a lot of funtionality.
What is the final cost of being able to tune yourself with a 2 or 3 bar setup with a stock PCM?
Some flash reading/writing software was released in DIY PROM. Been looking into tools to figure out how to get 2/3 bar in there.
If going new it ends up costing close to a MS3x. I ended up boring the EFIlive and PCM so Zero cost for now. Just needed narrowbands, a wideband and I wired the harness myself.
New you are
$600 for HP
$75 for a PCM
$100-400 depending on DIY or premade harness
$150 for a wideband
$30 for a 3 bar map
75$ diyautotune 3 bar gm map. 20$ for v6 plastic type iat
Thats all you need for stock pcm. As long as you have 730 ecm and speed density harness. Works great. What more function and features do ppl really need?
I ran $59 for years. It's an EPIC mess of crap.
$8d isn't much better, actually. Even the open loop idle hacks and all that.
What function and features? Nitrous control, electronic wastegate control, e85 (flex fuel sensor) support, launch control, alcohol injection control (PWM or solenoid based), DIS support using any trigger wheel available, multiple injector drivers and multiple injector strategies (delco ECM's it's in the hardware and not configurable), Target AFR tables with true wideband correction. Those are just to start
Not everyone needs that, but when it's available it's kind of nice. I like knowing I can switch from a SBC with a dizzy, to a LSx with a 24x with just a few clicks of the mouse. I also like having the same system be it my firebird, my boat, my buddies mustang, etc.
$8d isn't much better, actually. Even the open loop idle hacks and all that.
What function and features? Nitrous control, electronic wastegate control, e85 (flex fuel sensor) support, launch control, alcohol injection control (PWM or solenoid based), DIS support using any trigger wheel available, multiple injector drivers and multiple injector strategies (delco ECM's it's in the hardware and not configurable), Target AFR tables with true wideband correction. Those are just to start
Not everyone needs that, but when it's available it's kind of nice. I like knowing I can switch from a SBC with a dizzy, to a LSx with a 24x with just a few clicks of the mouse. I also like having the same system be it my firebird, my boat, my buddies mustang, etc.
-- Joe
9/10 cant seem to get megasquirt running lol. It seems all good in theory but too complicated for most. I have no complaints on code $59 i think its actually quite nice
But thats for sbc not lsx. My mistake to bring it up i got mixed up in another thread
A stockish 5.3 with a mild cam, why not just use gm code already programmed perfectly for stock 5.3 and just do minor tweaks for the cam and add 2-3 bar op system for boost. Cant get any better than that bang for buck imo for a build like this
I think I would want closed loop no? I honestly would like the best setup for off boost and then boost. I would plan on running the 2 front OEM 02's and then a innovate WB02 since I have it, but also looking at those new innovate boost/WB02 or the dual WB02 gauges so 3 - 4 bungs total.
I also want to run the stock MAF if at all possible. For the idle to before boost and then maybe max out the MAF tables etc idk for boost. Thinking it will greatly improve the idle/cruising etc especially if I keep the engine fully stock except the injectors and turbos.
09-11-2015, 03:33 PM
