Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Fuel down trans and driveshaft tunnels technically do not pass tech however seldom seen it enforced

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Not sure why he is having problems. I’ve run basically same type fuel system for years and several thousand miles and no issue.
I had over 25,000 miles daily driving stock fuel system and no issues.

Idk why some guys experience this weird hot fuel/hot pump problem unless its knockoff pumps?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I honestly think it's the Florida area, the restrictive fuel lines, check valve, fuel filter, timing table, and how the exhaust is being run. Something is overheating the fuel causing his pumps to lock. I would even be curious to know if he is running the stock heat deflector between the muffler and fuel tank at this point, because something is heating that fuel to an excessive point. If I were Steve, I would just run an LSX sized check valve(s) for the fuel system, maybe even throw in a vented gas cap, and make sure the heat is being deflected from the exhaust tubes to the fuel lines and just call it a day. Everything seems fine when it's cold, only when he starts thrashing on it then eventually comes to a stop and lets it idle. It just seems to build up excessively with his setup when his EGT's rise. Those duel exhaust tips are tiny by the way (2 1/4"?), which would only create more heat...

- Rob

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Trans tunnel is fine, driveshaft tunnel is not. Has to be metalic braided when passing by the flywheel area. So What I do is go by the subframe and then turn up right around the mid section of the transmission.

"Fuel lines (except steel braided lines) in the
flywheel/bellhousing area must be enclosed in a 16-inch length of
steel tubing, 1/8-inch-minimum wall thickness, securely mounted as
a protection against fuel-line rupture. Fuel lines may not be routed
in the driveshaft tunnel."

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

What check valve?

-- Joe

ZZ3Astro

Yeah I don't know of any checkvalve in my fuel system at this point, other than the pumps. My configuration is two Aeromotive 340's (legit ones), one feeds the factory tank hard line. The other feeds one of the other hard lines that is the same size as the feed line (purge line? I don't remember). After exiting the tank they Y into a braided line I had made (again I don't remember the size off hand but it was whatever size was supposed to be sufficient for my combo). This goes through some fancy filter and directly to the fuel rail. Return line is the original feed hard line. Vented gas cap. Vented enough that a full tank will send fuel down the quarter actually.

Exhaust is dual 2.5 tips I would never try to cram this through 2.25. But I also have a cutout and running it wide open has no impact on the fueling issues. Factory heat deflector is in place. And the muffler is a straight through so it doesn't really build up heat like something baffled would.


I think it is partially the Florida heat.. these issues generally are on my June/July videos over the years.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i was just browsing the aeromotive site and read this:


a pair of those guys are seriously moving some fuel. dang

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i was assuming he meant regulator?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Are you guys losing it...?

There are four lines coming from the intank assembly, one is the vent. The vent leads to a ball type check valve in which prevents air from coming bank into the fuel tank, but relieves vapor buildup when it builds up. None of you seen a stock intank assembly before? Lemme grab a pic of mine.

- Rob

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Here... this was one I grabbed from the junkyard, I added another one to help it vent faster.

- Rob

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

lol aaah ok i know what you are talking about now. one of my 4th gens was missing that whole line/breather.

one of the cars i worked on in the past had a "bad fuel pump" that would allow the car to run up the road about a half mile and then it would sputter to a halt without restarting. it did that to me one day as i rolled into my driveway. when i got out of the car, i could hear the fuel in the tank bubbling like mad. i loosened the cap and it sounded like a tea kettle whistling for several seconds there was so much pressure in there. he took it back to the guy who put the pump in it, and supposedly replaced the "bad pump". just reminds my of this car's symptoms.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Those two vent lines are open to atmosphere on my car.

The feed and return connect to braided PTFE hose.

No check valve, charcoal canister, etc.

When people build cars I make general assumptions about stuff, and I assume they delete the emissions crap and run an open air vent.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Nah, that's not me. I can't drive around smelling fumes, it's nauseating. Newer cars throw codes with an open air vent, heck my wife's car set a code because the guy at Wawa forgot to put the gas cap back on. I even cringe when I see guys running an open coolant reservoir line to the ground, it's so unnecessary. Either way, I think Steve is heating his fuel faster than he'd like to, or the vapor just can't find its' way out fast enough. Something is being overlooked somewhere...

- Rob

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I don't smell anything.

50s and 60s muscle cars had vented gas gaps.

Anyhow. I don't know that he has that on his system, based on his description of how he plumbed it.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You might be used to the smell Joe if that is the case. Other's will that is for sure. Just like those who smoke, they don't smell their clothes because they are used to the smell, but other people do, most definitely. I can tell if someone is a smoker or a dog owner a mile away lol. Can definitely tell if someone is running an open vent from driving behind them, that is for sure. I used to like the smell of fuel back in the day too, but now it makes me sick. But anyways, hopefully Steve sorts it out soon.

- Rob

ZZ3Astro

I would much prefer a canister purge setup.. maybe the dominator can be programmed to do it some day.

I'm ordering a solid state relay today and hoping PWM pump control is the ticket. I really have high hopes for this but I'm also going to run new larger fuel lines as well. Injector time as well, these are NINE years old now holy cow. All of these fuel components will be mindful of the new E85 pump in town. A flex fuel sensor is also on the short list.

Just got the new transmission in the GT-R Friday so that car is hopefully fixed. I say hopefully because I just got back last night. I drove it from Atlanta to LaGrange but speed traps are over every hill in Georgia so I never once stretched it out through the gears. My 49 is at a shop getting the new front end installed so I have nothing but the Iroc to sort out for the time being. So right now I have time (for once) to focus on the Iroc. Should be on PWM fuel pump control by the end of the week!

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

the C5 i have been working on has a pair of 340's in it with a stock pcm. i'll see if i can find out what it uses to control pumps and look at the fuel lines.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

When I was messing with PWM and the walbro 410lb/hr, Walbro said they test down to 8 volts.
What is the lowest voltage you can PWM the Aeromotive at according to them? Or is a try it and see test?

ZZ3Astro

The Aermotive stand-alone PWM controller says to adjust it to a minimum of 8 volts loaded. The example is with an A1000 but I'm sure the 340 will be the same. There isn't a ton of information on the web on this subject so I will reach out to the Aeromotive tech department and confirm.

I've decided to run one pump PWM and have the second pump come via the standard relay at 3 psi. I don't see any advantage to running paired PWM and if I did my minimum fuel flow (based on an 8 volt minimum requirement) would be twice as much running them both on a single PWM circuit.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

im sure it has been said before, but what do you have for wiring feeding those pumps? the car i am working on now has a 4ga. cable running back to its pumps.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Holy cable!! Thats what i run for alternator back to battery. No need for that size to feed a small pump

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

Aeromotive suggests a 10ga. wire for one of those pumps. this car has a pair of them, and they may have also tied the meth pump onto it as well. 4ga. isnt terribly huge, its a typical car amplifier sized wire.
i think i ran 1/0 for the battery cable in my car....

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Max draw on the walbro 410lph is 21 amps @ 13.5 volts

Two pump would draw a max of 42 amps.

Automotive copper wire is rated at 85c. Doing an ampacity calculation would indicate that the mare minimum 85c copper wire would be 8 awg.

If the battery is in the front, and the cable length is around 15 feet, the voltage drop will b 5.58%.

Stepping up to 4awg wire reduces voltage drop to 2.21%


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Dual 10 ga power feeds is usually all you need and see. Dual 255/340 deals hotwire kits are mostly 10 ga. Have not seen anything bigger

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You arent doing a single wire feed. Both pumps get their own but suppose a single 4 would work then splice off from there but i wouldnt do it that way. Dual relays, secondary controlled on ecm or hobbs

I also believe 450 walbros have been tested to 15 amps at 58 psi. 16 at slightly higher

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i think this car just ran 12v to the rear using single 4ga. to a distribution block/stud. from there it goes out to relays for the fuel pumps and possibly other things. same function as a pair of 10ga. wires running side by side.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

wonder how much more current under boost. say 20# boost it would be at 78psi on the fuel.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

17-18

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

thats not bad at all.

86CamaroDan

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Many ways to do it. I'd run a large awg feed and a smaller control wires to the rear, and run the relays close to the pump.

That is if I needed two pumps. I don't.

I did the amperage and voltage drop calcs to show why someone might choose to run 4awg for dual pumps.


-- Joe

ZZ3Astro

I don't know what gauge because it's been a good while but I am not one to run smaller than recommended (usually go the opposite direction on wiring size). It's probably 10 though.. Separate wires to each pump, relays on rear right wheel well with large feed wiring going to power distribution board/fuse panel right next to it and the battery back there somewhere too. I'm not running into a current problem.


Swapped out the fuel gauge today with the replacement one.. works like a charm. Next major action items:


1> PWM conversion to pump 1 circuit


2> Build circuit to keep uninterrupted power to gauges/MFD for at least 10 seconds during key cycle/startup.


3> Order bigger NEW injectors, fuel lines and decide on fuel pump options. It turns out my 340's are Gen1 and do not play well with E85. Either replace them with 340 Gen2s or consider other configurations. Most likely just run two new 340s.

Drac0nic

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...ter-purge.html

This seems complicated in a way I hadn't anticipated. I am pretty sure you could do this though.

ZZ3Astro

Interesting info.. thanks. I just built a set of conditions to match most of those. I was able to set up a test output with the following conditions (5 is the limit but there is a secondary deactivation option that can be used to deactivate for very high coolant temperature as in this example).


150 second start delay once all conditions met:
CTS Above 176F and Below 238F (secondary deactivation)
IAC Below 80% (can be changed above/below etc as needed)
Speed Above 20 mph
RPM Above 1100
MAP Below 75 kpa (added to deal with boost)




So it definitely can be done!

ZZ3Astro

Another day of effort gone to heck with the Iroc.. I spent a couple of hours working on wiring up the two-step button that the shop didn't, as well and doing some planning for mounting a delay off relay for the gauges. I was to the point of setting up the button activated rev-limiter and trying to get it to work. During one of the restarts my laptop suddenly gives a "USB port surge detected" and shuts down the USB ports. I reboot with the ECM unplugged, no problem. Plug in the Holley ECM, surge detected. I went inside and was able to charge my video camera and access it with no issues on the same laptop and ports. Car still runs at least. I guess next it is disconnect the battery from the Holley and see if it fixes the problem. Done for the night though.


I should have just spent the time washing the GTR and I could be out riding in it right about now. Frustrating, this car.

ZZ3Astro

Turns out the USB cable ($48) is bad. No one has even sat in the passenger side - not a chance the cable was damaged by anything. I'm going to ask the dealer to replace it under warranty.


Two-step working. It's meh... I don't see an antilag feature although you can set up other actions based on the input trigger, such as retarding the timing. I don't see a way to remove X sparks from Y spark events, random or otherwise. I've never found a two-step that works better than the MS6AL. So far the Dominator does a lot of backfiring but I'll keep working with the settings.

Given the setbacks and extreme heat this week, the PWM fuel setup is not finished as was planned.


I also ordered a delay-off relay which will be wired into the analog gauges' power source (and possibly the MFD). This will keep the gauges powered during restarts which as frequently required for various config changes on the Holley. Had hoped to get this installed this weekend as well but... guess it will be another time.


The only good news is I was able to use a spare USB cable to finish the ECM config for the two-step.

ZZ3Astro

So I found the PERFECT gauge bezel for my setup. Problem is these people make gauges too and even though they are standard sizes (same as my particular gauges) they REFUSE to sell the bezel WITHOUT their gauges. So the question is can I sell the gauges on ebay for enough (approx. $50/ea) to bring the total cost down to around $300 for the bezel alone? Because I would have been willing to pay $300 for it alone. They are New Vintage USA (NVU). Or would I make more money making a youtube video showing my displeasure and smashing the gauges I remove to replace with my Holleys?


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/n...t/model/camaro


The manufacturer told me selling the bezel alone would be like chevy selling a Camaro minus the body so I could put a mustang body on the chassis. I told them that sounds like a much better way to build a Mustang!

Oh well.

Drac0nic

Get a 2" hole saw and a piece of sheet aluminum. Not altogether a hard piece to fab.

ZZ3Astro

That was my plan, but there is a lot involved to cut that panel out... get the screw holes centered properly, actually cutting the panel to the same shape as the original bezel, make clean holes for the gauges etc.. not to mention buy $40+ worth of hole saws, painting, figuring out indicator light positions etc. It would be at least a multi-hour job and probably go into several days to get it all perfected. My free time is so limited these days I automatically prefer buying something already made.

Drac0nic

You on Turbomustangs/the turbo forums? I think ri85gt used to run gaugeplates.com but I'm not sure if he's gone or not.

ZZ3Astro

Haven't been to those forums in a while.. Looks like that site is gone. I think he only makes Mustang bezels now. Nice looking stuff though.

Finally drove the Iroc to a destination last night. It did very well in the cool night air, staying below 195 the whole time. I'm trying to remember where I've driven it since the gas station visit where it was sucking fumes. It took 2.3 gallons to fill up and I haven't driven much. Amazing how much it drinks when you're boosting!

Still haven't made the PWM circuit but I did think of another one I'm going to add. My gauges are LED lit so the headlight switch twisty analog dimmer doesn't work any more. I figure I can use a 0-20 volt input on the Holley to come from the analog dimmer, and set up a PWM output to the LEDs of the gauges. This way I can set up auto-dim with the headlights as well as variable dimmer level. Those gauges are WAY too bright at night for my very light sensitive eyes.

While driving last night I really learned to appreciate how nice the revised gauge layout will be. Driving around with 4 visible gauges on the dash is not sufficient. Can't wait!

no new tires

OP said in his video, "...Im wondering what the h311 im doing...".


LOL!

-also, what did 9K buy again?

ZZ3Astro

9k... have to think about this for a minute lol! I think the breakdown was $6k in Holley EFI and related parts plus $3k from the shop. Part of that labor included wrapping the new downpipe, re-engineering the rear mounted battery cabling (adding circuit breaker, rear relay/fuse panel, rerouting main battery cable to starter) and making new front brake hardlines.


Some good news over here... my Jeep Rubicon finally sold yesterday. That vehicle was a real thorn in my side since the day I drove it home. Cost of ownership worked out to $1/mile before fuel but money well lost because now it can't cost me any more. Best of all, vehicle #4 in my signature now has funding. I just need to find one so I can fill out the information. Only thing I'll say is it will be something very old!

86CamaroDan

7 Days later
Sorry, i had too

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've been going back and forth. Looking at street rods. I was looking at this '31 chevy yesterday. I could see myself building one:

ZZ3Astro

86CamaroDan - Actually I've already turned down several nearby options due to various states of restoration. I found a couple of perfect options (perfect as in price + appearance + distance) but both had engines that were in need of reconditioning. I was actually going to buy something before I sold the Jeep, but realized I need about 10k more to get something that is already DONE... so the Jeep selling added 15k to my budget. Point is, I'm definitely not looking for a project. I want a turn the key and enjoy it car. Oh and this one is going to be 100% stock!


Anesthes - I love love LOVE those old Chevy's too. Model A's are the best option as far as spare parts and upgrades but I always seem to go towards the less often traveled paths. I always seem to pay for going that route... but anyway both of those cars are on my list of possibilities. It's just that I will be going with all original, though I would like to own a 5 window Chevy with a turbo V8 or better yet an injected 8-71 small block!

ZZ3Astro

Today was great! I learned a whole lot about PWM on the Holley system, had a 100% successful PWM test driving the LED gauge backlighting as a dimmer off the TPS, and concluded with setting up a 0-20 volt input on the factory dimmer which in turn controlled the PWM circuit for a 1:1 dimming of the LED using the factory rotary dimmer! It also occurred to me that I could easily run separate outputs in specific gauges and set up a PWM table to light up a gauge based on something like AFR vs MAP. Instead of a dumb gauge LED that lights up at a specific value, the gauge would light up (or brighten for example) if the AFR went higher than 12:1 at 15 psi or 13:1 at 5 psi. It would also be fairly easy to replace the gauge's warning light or add in a separate light in the gauge. This would be useful also for a low oil pressure warning vs rpm. The possibilities are endless!


Also I received the New Vintage USA gauge cluster. Very disappointing that they forced me to buy the whole $580 rig just to get the bezel, but the piece is pretty nice. The gauges look decent as well. I removed the gauges and installed the Holley gauges without incident. They fit nicely without interference to each other or the Iroc dash. Man what a nice layout. All of the gauges are very visible, obstructed only slightly by the tilt steering lever for the bottom left gauge which will be my fuel level indicator.


Very pleased with the bezel overall, but the company needs to re-assess their approach to paying customers. Now I have to decide whether to try try and sell the gauges by mounting them in the faux carbon bezel or perhaps smash them on Youtube in protest of their business practices. I'd prefer to sell them! Picture isn't so clear but here is the new bezel minus the fuel gauge.

ZZ3Astro

Unboxing video is up... for those of you who might be interested in getting this product.

Drac0nic

Flip the gauges or use em in another project. You have enough of them. You should have stuck it in a flat bed scanner then had someone water jet you one :rofl:

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Steve, the steering wheel assembly is slotted, and is adjustable from left to right, so if there is too much gap on one side of the gauge panel like you stated in your video, just loosen, line up, and tighten. As far as the gauge assembly, I can't believe you spent that much on it. You could have easily of made your own. But either way they do look great.

- Rob