|
Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap I have a 87 iroc, initially was TPI fuel injected. I swapped to a carbed 355 and am having trouble starting the engine when it is warm. It turns over for maybe 20 secs before it catches. After this, it will start immediately after I shut it off, but if I let it sit for maybe 15 mins after being warm, it will start hard again. I have a 750 double pumper Holley What Have I tried? Temp Control Carb Spacer Replaced 60 psi fuel pump with 14 psi pump with pressure regulator (with return line) Set fuel pressure to 3-5 psi Wrapped Fuel Lines Adjusted Floats to decrease fuel in bowls Replaced starter with racing started (wrapped also to reduce temp) Someone help me PLEASE!!!! Have had this issue since the engine swap two years ago, and have taken it to several shops and no one knows what to do. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Can you see any fuel in the bowls (if you have a sight glass) prior to trying to do a hot start? Kind of sounds like your bowls are empty. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by Jorlain
(Post 6230249)
Can you see any fuel in the bowls (if you have a sight glass) prior to trying to do a hot start? Kind of sounds like your bowls are empty. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Run the car to warm it up. Turn it off. Let it sit for 15-20 minutes. Pull the carb and look down in the manifold. It sounds like gas is leaking from the carb into the engine while it is sitting and not running. (I think that is what Jorlain was saying in his post above) |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by pancherj
(Post 6230267)
Run the car to warm it up. Turn it off. Let it sit for 15-20 minutes. Pull the carb and look down in the manifold. It sounds like gas is leaking from the carb into the engine while it is sitting and not running. (I think that is what Jorlain was saying in his post above) |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by pancherj
(Post 6230267)
Run the car to warm it up. Turn it off. Let it sit for 15-20 minutes. Pull the carb and look down in the manifold. It sounds like gas is leaking from the carb into the engine while it is sitting and not running. (I think that is what Jorlain was saying in his post above) With it hot, if you leave the key on for say 6-10 seconds prior to cranking (allowing the fuel pump to build pressure and\or fill the bowls) does it still take an additional 10 seconds before it fires? Another thing to try would be to try pumping the throttle while looking down the carb during a time it normally wouldn't start right away. Do you get a full pump shot? If you give it a couple of pumps does it start normally or faster? |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by Jorlain
(Post 6230275)
That or the fuel is evaporating. With it hot, if you leave the key on for say 6-10 seconds prior to cranking (allowing the fuel pump to build pressure and\or fill the bowls) does it still take an additional 10 seconds before it fires? Another thing to try would be to try pumping the throttle while looking down the carb during a time it normally wouldn't start right away. Do you get a full pump shot? If you give it a couple of pumps does it start normally or faster? So far we have tried all of these suggestions over a two year span. The only other thing I can think of is there is some over pressure when the engine is shut off? I took my carb off and put it on my friends 86 which has a mechanical pump and he has zero issues. I swapped him for his carb, and i get the same hard start. We swapped back and his runs fine with either carb. I think its related to either the plumbing set up or soemething in the fuel delivery. The electric pump is currently set to turn on when the ignition is activated, then shuts off when the ignition is turned off. i did some research on another thread and there are a few other people with the same issue with a variety of different carbs. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Just adjust the floats to 1/4 and ran it for an hour and let it sit for 35 mins and now there is nothing in the bowls. Is this a sign of evaporation? If so besides the thermal gasket and wrapping the fuel line, what can be done? |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap That much fuel disappearing in 30 minutes makes it sound like a leak rather than a fuel boil\evaporation issue. But you've changed carbs, so that seems unlikely. But, you might want to take a peek down into the intake anyways to see. What type of fuel line are you using? And what are you using to insulate it? What are your engine temps like? How are the lines routed? Obviously, the hotter the fuel is the faster it'll evaporate. I think modern fuels might even evaporate more quickly due to the ethanol in them. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap It is 1 of 3 things: boiling/evaporating, leaking, or draining back towards the tank through the fuel lines. That might mean that there is a vacuum created in your tank while running and the fuel is getting sucked out of the carb when you stop the engine. Is your tank vented properly? How hot is it under your friends hood compared to yours? |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Something ez to try is leave the gas cap loose so no pressure can build See if the problem persists. You may get some odors but you can deal with that for now. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by midias
(Post 6230455)
Something ez to try is leave the gas cap loose so no pressure can build See if the problem persists. You may get some odors but you can deal with that for now. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA
(Post 6230418)
It is 1 of 3 things: boiling/evaporating, leaking, or draining back towards the tank through the fuel lines. That might mean that there is a vacuum created in your tank while running and the fuel is getting sucked out of the carb when you stop the engine. Is your tank vented properly? How hot is it under your friends hood compared to yours? |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA
(Post 6230418)
It is 1 of 3 things: boiling/evaporating, leaking, or draining back towards the tank through the fuel lines. That might mean that there is a vacuum created in your tank while running and the fuel is getting sucked out of the carb when you stop the engine. Is your tank vented properly? How hot is it under your friends hood compared to yours? |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by relagp1
(Post 6234581)
also i may add my friends engine runs slightly hotter around 190 degrees. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by relagp1
(Post 6234580)
Tank may not be vented properly. How should this be done? I also have another fuel line that is not being used and it has a rubber cap on it. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA
(Post 6234590)
That unused line most likely went to your charcoal canister, which I'm betting is not there either. There is also supposed to be a "UFO" valve under the car by the driver's rear wheel. Together, these take care of your tank venting. Cap them off and you now have problems. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by relagp1
(Post 6234581)
also i may add my friends engine runs slightly hotter around 190 degrees. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA
(Post 6234590)
That unused line most likely went to your charcoal canister, which I'm betting is not there either. There is also supposed to be a "UFO" valve under the car by the driver's rear wheel. Together, these take care of your tank venting. Cap them off and you now have problems. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by relagp1
(Post 6234602)
also i do notice after sitting there is no gas in the bowls. Could this possible vacuum be the cause? Leaving the cap loose would also prevent a vacuum from being created. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...nt_valve_3.jpg UFO Valve - no longer available You have to take yours apart and clean, or get really lucky finding one used. Below - charcoal canister. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...c-imag0052.jpg |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by relagp1
(Post 6234622)
my canister is gone. They removed it when i did the tpi swap. Do i just get a canister and run that line to it? Do i plug the red plug back into it? The ECM is gone also, I assume. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by relagp1
(Post 6234582)
I do notice that after sitting, the fuel pressure drops on my fuel line pressure gauge but maybe this is expected? |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA
(Post 6234624)
If a vacuum is being created in the tank as the fuel is consumed, then it is entirely possible. But if your cap is vented, a vacuum should not be created. Do what midias said above - Something ez to try is leave the gas cap loose so no pressure can build. See if the problem persists. You may get some odors but you can deal with that for now. Leaving the cap loose would also prevent a vacuum from being created. Took the gas cap off and drove it, still has the same issue. I still have the UFO valve in place and in line. The canister is gone. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...ba3def3735.jpgUFO valve. Car has 70,000 miles on it. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Took the gas cap off and drove it, still has the same issue. I still have the UFO valve in place and in line. This is very strange. It has to be a problem with your car, because you said that it does not happen when you swap your carb to your buddies car, and it still happens if you put his carb on your engine. I'm starting to run out of ideas. OK, describe your fuel supply system (type of pump, regulator, pressures, etc). |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Not sure if this has anything to do with it, everyone is looking at fuel, but How advanced is your Timing? When my Bird was *HOT* from climbing up hills or on a hot day, the timing was so advanced that you could barely start the car over 210 degrees. Spin the distributor back a bit and off I went, I lived in a High Elevation Area as well. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by Boxtruck
(Post 6234989)
Not sure if this has anything to do with it, everyone is looking at fuel, but How advanced is your Timing? When my Bird was *HOT* from climbing up hills or on a hot day, the timing was so advanced that you could barely start the car over 210 degrees. Spin the distributor back a bit and off I went, I lived in a High Elevation Area as well. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA
(Post 6234925)
Took the gas cap off and drove it, still has the same issue. I still have the UFO valve in place and in line. This is very strange. It has to be a problem with your car, because you said that it does not happen when you swap your carb to your buddies car, and it still happens if you put his carb on your engine. I'm starting to run out of ideas. OK, describe your fuel supply system (type of pump, regulator, pressures, etc). i started with the stock 60 psi fuel pump but now have a 14 psi tbi pump. I have tried mallory and holley regulators. My current is a mallory with return line. Holley recommends 8 psi for carb but i run 4-6 psi. Floats are down to where you can barely see fuel in sight plug. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap 1 Attachment(s) Float level should be just at the bottom of the plug's threads, so you're good. 6 psi would work. Where is your regulator installed, before or after the carb? I'm guessing before, as in FP, Regulator, Carb. Here is the better way, if you can set it up like this. In this way the regulator cannot act as a restriction to the carb. If you had to add a mechanical FP, the TBI pump could give the fuel a push from the tank to the block mounted mechanical. GM also did that to try to solve the "vapor lock" problem. L69 cars came set up this way from the factory. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Yes mine setup is currently similar to this with the exception of my electrical fuel pump is inside the tank. Everything else is the same. I still think the issue is somewhere with the fuel delivery after the engine is shut off. I think we are getting close. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap 1 Attachment(s) 1) You MUST be using a bypass regulator. 2) Change the line routing to this. The only thing you need to change to this is a log type of fuel line at the carb. But for a test, you can get away with a tee. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA
(Post 6235410)
1) You MUST be using a bypass regulator. 2) Change the line routing to this. The only thing you need to change to this is a log type of fuel line at the carb. But for a test, you can get away with a tee. Found out the issue. The problem is when the car shuts off, the pump shuts off, but I dont think the fuel goes back thru the return line fast enough and I still have pressure in the line going to the carb. I installed a switch to the fuel pump, and if i hit the switch 6 seconds before i shut the car off, the pressure goes to <1psi and when i go to start, it does not hesitate, it starts right up, no issues. This is a temporary fix but what can I do to force the fuel back to the tank faster, and relieve the pressure in the line? |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap OK great, you're onto something. 3 things come to my mind. 1) your needles & seats in the carb are not completely sealing. So the pressure left in the line after you shut the engine off is forced past - "flooding" your engine. A not-so-soon-after restart takes a lot of cranking to get that fuel out of there. 2) if it only takes 6 seconds for the line pressure to drop, then the return line is working fine. 3) or is it? What is the part number of your Mallory regulator? If it is anything like the Holley 12-803, then that regulator is a non-return style and will not work properly in this situation. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/h...SABEgLByPD_BwE https://static.summitracing.com/glob...-12-803_ml.jpg |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap I will take a pic of the regulator tonight. I am leaning towards the regulator either not being right for my setup or faulty. I say this because I do get a jumpy fuel pressure gauge when I adjust the pressure on the regulator. Jumpy gauge is sometimes linked to flow or volume. In my case I have a good size return line, and I didn't get the jumpy gauge until I switched regulators. The fact that I have put 3 carbs on the engine, voids out the seats being bad on all 3 carbs. The carb I have on now has maybe 600 miles on it fresh out of the box. The last 2 were the same, just different size and or name. I think we are getting very close and the good thing is there are at least 8 people with the same or similar problem with the tpi swap on another thread. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Even good seats can be over powered by too much pressure and it does not take much. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap I can only relay what happened in my case with my TBI to CARB swap...car ran absolutely great BUT I had the hot hard start problem...I tried the foamy thermal type carb gasket / spacer that came with my carb and it didnt fix it..I tried shielding my fuel lines from exhaust heat sources yada yada still didnt fix it. We dont have emissions in Florida so I drilled a pinhole in my gas cap to vent it if it were a pressurization issue ....I then went full circle and tried a better hard plastic 1/2 inch carb spacer and it 100% fixed it here in Florida (hot) ....ethanol gas was apparently boiling during the ignition off heat soak......fyi if you are running your bowls LOW on purpose think about it you are lessening the volume of the fuel in the bowls which means you are heating the reduced volume in those bowls quicker / worse and the carb as a whole will run hotter as it has reduced fuel volume in the bowls which provide a tiny bit of cooling to the carb body ....not saying this is exactly whats wrong in your setup but sometimes it is the simplest thing.... FWIW |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Thanks for your tips!. Yea I played around with the floats for a while now. My issue is slightly different because I initially thought my issue was temperature driven, but as of last week its not. My issue would occur just from running the engine for 3-5 mins as well. I keep my floats 1/4 full to where you can see fuel in the bowl near the bottom of the sight hole. Halfway or more burns way too much gas for my setup and it runs a little rich. I will keep you updated once I switch out this regulator. Hopefully that will render this issue. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by sootie007
(Post 6236483)
I can only relay what happened in my case with my TBI to CARB swap...car ran absolutely great BUT I had the hot hard start problem...I tried the foamy thermal type carb gasket / spacer that came with my carb and it didnt fix it..I tried shielding my fuel lines from exhaust heat sources yada yada still didnt fix it. We dont have emissions in Florida so I drilled a pinhole in my gas cap to vent it if it were a pressurization issue ....I then went full circle and tried a better hard plastic 1/2 inch carb spacer and it 100% fixed it here in Florida (hot) ....ethanol gas was apparently boiling during the ignition off heat soak......fyi if you are running your bowls LOW on purpose think about it you are lessening the volume of the fuel in the bowls which means you are heating the reduced volume in those bowls quicker / worse and the carb as a whole will run hotter as it has reduced fuel volume in the bowls which provide a tiny bit of cooling to the carb body ....not saying this is exactly whats wrong in your setup but sometimes it is the simplest thing.... FWIW I believe the original TPI fuel system is plumbed this way also. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...brouting-2.jpg |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap I do currently have a fuel log but my regulator is right off the fuel line before it hits the carb. If I switch the plumbing to match this, will the regulator truly regulate the fuel before it enters the carb, or just after it leaves the carb? |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Yes mine is plumbed differently...I go from tank pump to regulator / return , to carb .....it works fine now but may have been fixed too just configuring it as you say ..... |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by relagp1
(Post 6236590)
I do currently have a fuel log but my regulator is right off the fuel line before it hits the carb. If I switch the plumbing to match this, will the regulator truly regulate the fuel before it enters the carb, or just after it leaves the carb? The pressure is controlled by the regulator allowing the excess fuel pressure to be relieved back to the tank. This is what allows the fuel to constantly recirculate, and at the correct pressure. A dead head regulator (old school Holley 12-803 type) is plumbed before the carb and works just like you putting your thumb over a garden hose, trying to restrict the water down to a dribble. This puts quite a load on your fuel pump and also ends up heating the fuel. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA
(Post 6236629)
Using a bypass style of regulator AFTER the carb allows full unrestricted flow to the carb. And the carb only takes what fuel it needs. The pressure is controlled by the regulator allowing the excess fuel pressure to be relieved back to the tank. This is what allows the fuel to constantly recirculate, and at the correct pressure. A dead head regulator (old school Holley 12-803 type) is plumbed before the carb and works just like you putting your thumb over a garden hose, trying to restrict the water down to a dribble. This puts quite a load on your fuel pump and also ends up heating the fuel. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...037933bf7f.jpgFuel Log https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.thi...3a7fa88074.jpgGas line entering regulator |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap I am slightly confused with the fuel diagram you posted and wanted to know if you can help me get mine setup this way. Currently, my main fuel line goes into the regulator (IN)) the goes out the regulator (out) and then goes into the fuel log which feeds that carb. From the diagram you posted, I need to take the main fuel line and go directly to the fuel log then out to the (IN) of the regulator, but if I do that there is no connection for the gas to exit and go to the regulator. My fuel log connects on one side of the carb, and two spots and there is no other connection open, which means my regulator wont be in the loop at all. How and where do I add the regulator after the carb? Take a look at my pics that I posted so you can maybe draw right on them if need be. Thanks! |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap
Originally Posted by NoEmissions84TA
(Post 6236629)
Using a bypass style of regulator AFTER the carb allows full unrestricted flow to the carb. And the carb only takes what fuel it needs. The pressure is controlled by the regulator allowing the excess fuel pressure to be relieved back to the tank. This is what allows the fuel to constantly recirculate, and at the correct pressure. A dead head regulator (old school Holley 12-803 type) is plumbed before the carb and works just like you putting your thumb over a garden hose, trying to restrict the water down to a dribble. This puts quite a load on your fuel pump and also ends up heating the fuel. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap 1 Attachment(s) This is easy. You want to achieve the same as this. https://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/17249/10002/-1 But you don't need to purchase a $561. fuel log. You already have everything you need, except for a tee fitting. Or here are some much cheaper logs. https://www.jegs.com/i/Speedmaster/7....1006/10002/-1 https://www.jegs.com/i/RPC/707/R2157/10002/-1 https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/100825/10002/-1 https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15190/10002/-1 You will want to connect the tee at the input of your current dual feed fuel line. So now you have created an additional connection. Connect your fuel pump directly to one port of the tee (FP directly feeding carb). The other (new) port will connect to the input of your bypass regulator. Block the OUT on the regulator. It works like this - your regulator will now control how much fuel is sent back to the tank, instead of controlling how much is sent to the carb. Yes I know, not volume - pressure. Regulator controls pressure. But you get the idea. See it now? |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap I had the same problem for some time, it starts fine when cold but when hot it's hard to start, goes very lean and stumbles until i drive it a few miles, i tried everything even swapped carburetors but if i tried to keep the same AFR i ended up with the same results, it was just lean idle, my engine has to idle at 12.4:1 for this not to happen, now i don't even have to hit the gas before starting it when hot. |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap What type of fuel pump are you running? Was your Camaro initially TPI? Also what carb are you running? I am a novice to carbs. To lean my Holley I just dial the screws in but I only have a guage that reads vacuum. What do you use to measure you AFR? |
Re: Hard Starts When Engine is Hot TPI to Carb Swap Get yourself one of these or similar: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/a...0aAnS-EALw_wcB Best investment I ever made for tuning. |
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:54 PM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands