Crossfire Injection Issues Long story short, I had a running car, changed out the MAP sensor and hosing, put in a new rack and pinion, put a new oil pan gasket on, did NOT try to start the car, and went on a vacation for 2 weeks to come back to a car that is not spraying fuel through either injector. I believe I have fuel pressure, as gas squirts out the fitting if I loosen the fuel line connector a full turn, however I do not believe the ecm is sending a signal to the injectors as no change in voltage is read when cranking the engine. Any ideas what this could be? Something to do with the new map sensors perhaps? I have no clue as to what the problem is, and would greatly appreciate your input! :help: |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Are you getting spark? I know you're not spraying fuel but that would tell you if the ecm is getting a signal from the distributor. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by skirkland1980
(Post 5461716)
Are you getting spark? I know you're not spraying fuel but that would tell you if the ecm is getting a signal from the distributor. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by skirkland1980
(Post 5461716)
Are you getting spark? I know you're not spraying fuel but that would tell you if the ecm is getting a signal from the distributor. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Do you hear the fuel pump prime with key on engine off. Check all the fuses. If the fuses are good get a schematic and check power and ground to the ecm. If you have a spare distributor you could try one. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by skirkland1980
(Post 5461885)
Do you hear the fuel pump prime with key on engine off. Check all the fuses. If the fuses are good get a schematic and check power and ground to the ecm. If you have a spare distributor you could try one. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by nbanwart
(Post 5461928)
I can hear the fuel pump, and all the fuses are good. Assuming the ecm has power, is there anyway to check the distributer to see if its outputting without putting a new one in? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues By the way double check your work! Could have pinched a wire somewhere while working on the oil pan. Check all plug in's around the area where you were working on the MAP. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by tzim350HO
(Post 5461940)
Your coil gets a reference from the ICM Igniton Control Module in the distributor. If it does not send a signal to the coil it will not fire. One of the easier things to check before blaming the computer.
Originally Posted by tzim350HO
(Post 5461944)
By the way double check your work! Could have pinched a wire somewhere while working on the oil pan. Check all plug in's around the area where you were working on the MAP. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Did you check for any codes in the computer? If you had an ICM failure it might throw a code. There would also be no reference signal to fire the injectors with a bad ICM. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues You mentioned MAP hose! What about the weather pack connector? Is it seated properly? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues It should still start with the MAP disconnected. It sounds more like a spark/ICM issue, and due to that there is no reference signal to the computer to pulse the injectors. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues The MAP sensor is bolted on a bracket hanging on the firewall. I think I remember that the fuel pump relay is also located there. Check the wiring on both. I was modifying my Xfire and installing a ZF6 trans in the car. While on my back under the car, I looked up and saw bare wire plugging into the MAP and the pump relay. More importantly, its a fire hazard. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues No change in voltage? Hmmmmm....Where are you testing for voltage? The ECM toggles the ground to the injectors. No spark no injector pulse probably means no signal from pickup coil to module or no signal from module to ECM, provided that there is power and ground to ECM, ignition module etc.. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Well bought a new ICM today because it sounded like that was the problem...the new ICM dd not make a difference whatsoever. Would a bad coil cause both of these symptoms? Are there any fuses not in the fuse box inline with the ecm I should perhaps check? Additionally, when I jump the AB terminals to attempt to pull codes from the engine nothing happens at all. I'm assuming this means the ecm is not getting any power? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues What about the oil pressure sending unit by the distributor. Cuts off fuel if no oil pressure. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by Dominic Sorresso
(Post 5462883)
What about the oil pressure sending unit by the distributor. Cuts off fuel if no oil pressure. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Oil pressure sensor for fuel cutoff and gauge sensor are two different sensors IIRC. The fuel pump will automatically cycle on for 2 sec. then shutoff to prime the TBIs. Question is whether it will come back on based on oil pressure. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by nbanwart
(Post 5462871)
Well bought a new ICM today because it sounded like that was the problem...the new ICM dd not make a difference whatsoever. Would a bad coil cause both of these symptoms? Are there any fuses not in the fuse box inline with the ecm I should perhaps check? Additionally, when I jump the AB terminals to attempt to pull codes from the engine nothing happens at all. I'm assuming this means the ecm is not getting any power? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by Dominic Sorresso
(Post 5462924)
Oil pressure sensor for fuel cutoff and gauge sensor are two different sensors IIRC. The fuel pump will automatically cycle on for 2 sec. then shutoff to prime the TBIs. Question is whether it will come back on based on oil pressure.
Originally Posted by kauboy
(Post 5462968)
Might have a fusible link at the starter. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Did you check the fuse for the ECM? It should be a 10 amp fuse in the fuse block. I know you said you checked all fuses but it might be worth swapping it out. Also, IIRC - I think there is a separate wire at the battery feeding the ECM. I am checking my shop manual. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues There is a fusible link at the battery that feeds the ecm. It is also tied into the oil pressure switch. Make sure that fusible link is OK. You could also test for power at the orange wire at the fuel pump relay, as it is tied into the same power circuit as the ecm. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues OK. let's start over. Do you have a vette or F body and what year? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by 82tarecaro
(Post 5463604)
There is a fusible link at the battery that feeds the ecm. It is also tied into the oil pressure switch. Make sure that fusible link is OK. You could also test for power at the orange wire at the fuel pump relay, as it is tied into the same power circuit as the ecm.
Originally Posted by kauboy
(Post 5463609)
OK. let's start over. Do you have a vette or F body and what year? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues OK - might be the same but I was looking in an F body shop manual. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues I was looking around the battery area and pulled up (gently) and a wire split in half. I currently have all the same functions on my car as I did before the wire was pulled off, so I wonder if the wire was not internally damaged. Problem is, the wire is stemmed off some sort of plastic connector (no idea what it is), do any of you guys on how to wire this? In the attached picture, it is the now-bare wire. http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps48d9dd97.jpg |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues That's your fusible link. If it attaches to that black plastic block in the foreground you found your problem :) |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by Dominic Sorresso
(Post 5462883)
What about the oil pressure sending unit by the distributor. Cuts off fuel if no oil pressure. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Oh...I was looking for a inline fuse, I feel dumb. Could I just replace the fusible link with a inline fuse or does it have to be a fusible link? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by nbanwart
(Post 5463761)
Oh...I was looking for a inline fuse, I feel dumb. Could I just replace the fusible link with a inline fuse or does it have to be a fusible link? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Well, replaced the fuse and put everything back together and...nothing. Same problem as before. I checked the voltage on both sides to make sure the fuse was conducting too. Any ideas? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Looks like multiple problems. Not very common to have too many things happen at once for no reason. Back to basics i guess.....Recheck your ECM fuse, injector fuses 1 & 2, if good see if check engine light is on with key in run position, jump A b terminals at ALDL to check for codes again. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by kauboy
(Post 5464023)
Looks like multiple problems. Not very common to have too many things happen at once for no reason. Back to basics i guess.....Recheck your ECM fuse, injector fuses 1 & 2, if good see if check engine light is on with key in run position, jump A b terminals at ALDL to check for codes again. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues At the ECM, the white connector, pins 10 & 15 get battery power through a fusible link. The wires are orange. Pin 16 gets +12 V via the ignition switch. It runs through a 3A fuse that is likely in the fuse block. It should be labeled "ECM IGN", second row from bottom, center of row. RBob. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by RBob
(Post 5464525)
At the ECM, the white connector, pins 10 & 15 get battery power through a fusible link. The wires are orange. Pin 16 gets +12 V via the ignition switch. It runs through a 3A fuse that is likely in the fuse block. It should be labeled "ECM IGN", second row from bottom, center of row. RBob. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues There is a splice in the orange wire, likely under the hood. Once it leaves the fusible link as the orange wire it goes to the oil pressure switch (fuel pump relay backup), the fuel pump relay, and to the ECM. I would check for +12 V at the orange wire in the fuel pump relay socket and the oil pressure switch connector. It may be that the splice is bad, but I'm not sure where it is located. RBob. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues 1 Attachment(s) At the orange wire in the fuel pump relay, the wire is reading 12V. Have not checked the oil sender unit's voltage, however, I found this relay with the 3 left and 2 right wires touching each other near the windshield wiper motor and brake booster. I'm cleaning it up as we speak, but do you think this might have something to do with the problem? Attachment 355905 |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues A rhetorical question? RBob. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by RBob
(Post 5465442)
A rhetorical question? RBob. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues It appears to be the fuel pump relay connector. It has the correct wire colors and splices for it to be. From the left: Double reds, A: one goes to oil pressure switch, the other goes to the ECM monitor and to the fuel pump fuse. From the fuse it goes on to the pump. Blk/Wht, B: ground for the coil Grn/Wht, C: +12 V from ECM to activate the relay Red, D: pin G on ALDL connector, allows running of pump by placing +12V on that pin Orange, E: +12V from the fusible link Note that this orange wire is the same wire that feeds battery power to the ECM. Although it is via a splice off of that wire. RBob. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Cleaned up and put insulation around the wires and it did not make a difference. The orange wire that goes to the fusible link has 12v, everything else has 0 which makes sense based on your information. The only place that orange wire goes before the ECM is the oil pressure gauge, right? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by nbanwart
(Post 5466063)
Cleaned up and put insulation around the wires and it did not make a difference. The orange wire that goes to the fusible link has 12v, everything else has 0 which makes sense based on your information. The only place that orange wire goes before the ECM is the oil pressure gauge, right? Not exactly. There is a splice in the harness where the orange wire becomes several orange wires. It isn't daisy chained, it is a star configuration. RBob. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues I looked through the wiring very precisely today and could not find the issue. Would it be acceptable to rig the ecm to a ign-on power source? And if yes, how should I go about doing it? And thanks for your help so far RBob :driving: |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by nbanwart
(Post 5465420)
At the orange wire in the fuel pump relay, the wire is reading 12V. Have not checked the oil sender unit's voltage, however, I found this relay with the 3 left and 2 right wires touching each other near the windshield wiper motor and brake booster. I'm cleaning it up as we speak, but do you think this might have something to do with the problem? http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/w...ps7a95d6dd.jpg |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Note that this orange wire is the same wire that feeds battery power to the ECM. Although it is via a splice off of that wire. RBob. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Guy's i would like to share something Do you hear the fuel pump prime with key on engine off. Check all the fuses. If the fuses are good get a schematic and check power and ground to the ecm. If you have a spare distributor you could try one........... |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues Well, just for fun I put 12v to the 10 and 15 pins on the ecm...and nothing. No check engine light, or anything of the sort. Does this mean the ecm is completely fried? I thought that the car would throw a code if the computer was done for. Where is the ground on the computer? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues The ECM gets ground via the harness to the engine block. Look for black/white wires in the harness. Such as found on white 12 & 13. RBob. |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by nbanwart
(Post 5467999)
Well, just for fun I put 12v to the 10 and 15 pins on the ecm...and nothing. No check engine light, or anything of the sort. Does this mean the ecm is completely fried? I thought that the car would throw a code if the computer was done for. Where is the ground on the computer? |
Re: Crossfire Injection Issues
Originally Posted by kauboy
(Post 5468164)
Wouldn't hurt to check the bulb. I've seen some systems where if the check engine light bulb is removed, it goes into a "limp" mode. It is a possibility the ecm fried and blew the fusible link, but check all your power and ground to the ecm before you condemn it. :) |
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