Eh, True Duals & Mufflers
 

It's True Dual Time Baby

Been wanting to do this since before I sold the Camaro intially. So here's the game plan, I'm redoing the whole exhaust, I'm getting rid of the Flowtech Shorty headers and selling them to my buddy BlueZee28. Also, of course, dumping the Y-Pipe and 3in pipes and Flowmaster exhaust in favor of something new.

Here's the game plan, I'm going to run Heddman Longtubes, 2.5in pipes, either H/X-Pipe, Mufflers, and then turndowns. But what mufflers to go with? The car isn't an everyday driver, so I can get away with being a little extra 'loud', but I don't want anything hillbilly loud, like glasspacks or something, and I definately don't want to do Flowmaster, I'm tired of the sound and everyone has Flowmaster. Also, I don't feel like spending the money on GMMG exhaust.

I only need mufflers, not a complete exhaust, I've been eyeing the Dynomax Bullet mufflers but heck, they are pretty freakin loud, that's why their racing mufflers http://www.thirdgenusa.com/yabb/images/cool.gif . I want something that is near same size as Bullet mufflers as I can hide them better and less chance of dragging them.

I want something with good, tough sound, I want it to be heard at idle and really roar when at full-throttle, but like I said, nothing absolutely nuts, if I was looking for all-out loud, I'd just run open headers. Would you recommend bullets or is there something else out there you'd really enjoy for true dual exhaust? And remember... good ol' Missouri, no worries about emissions.

Heddman's are what I've always used, or is there something else out there that you would honestly recommend over the Heddman's... being realistic with price and what the benefits are. Thanks Guys!

Here's Current Sound Clip:
Flowtech Shorty Headers - YPipe - 3in Pipes - Flowmaster Delta 40

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...o/th_DaRev.jpg

I would look into Spin Tech mufflers, they have about any size imaginable and they sound great. There are some really small ones in the pro-street series that are only 4in. thick so they could be tucked up really well for maximum ground clearance. They also have mufflers made for oval pipe too if you go that route.

I'm using stainless edlebrock rpm series mufflers(3inch in 3in out) on my dual 3in setup. I'm normally not a big edelbrock fan but these mufflers do sound great..loud but not as loud as bullets and they have a nice low rumble sound to them at idle. The don't make the type I have anymore but they have some newer ones in the same size (3 5/8in thick). They don't have stainless RPM series mufflers anymore but they have SDT series and stainless 304 series in the same size.

http://www.spintechmufflers.com/spin...ntechindex.asp

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...ler_apps.shtml

Remember
 

any time you put turn downs on a car, or for that matter dont exit the exhaust from under the car.....its gonna be loud inside the car. I also suggest Spintech.... they have a good sound and are about as thin as you can get(that I have seen) I put some on a V-8 S-10 for a guy I know and put duels on my Brothers ragged old Dodge truck it's the only good thing about the truck.....

I've never heard of these spintechs till I put this thread up on a few websites and everyone has been mentioning them. So looks like it just may be a toss up between Spintech's and Bullets... I'll have to research the Spintech's a little more. I was gonna have the exhaust exit right below the rear bumper, I don't want it to extend beyond the car like right now... think that would be a problem?

I have had the bullets on a stock tbi 350 in a rs camaro with hooker shorties and my slightly built tune port 350 with cold air induction,air foil,ported plenum,8.8 wires,cam,edelbrock headers, no cats and bullets with dumps man it made my tbi which came from 95 burban sound alot meaner than it really was it scared off alot of people that would have beat me but they got scared with my tpi it was just to loud for a daily driver not outside but in the car it was super loud i loved the sound but couldnt take it everyday i will probaly put 1 camber flowmasters on the car and dump it again once i get my suv and not drive the gta everyday i currently have the hooker catback it sounds good just not loud enuff for me if i dont go with flows i will get the borla xr-1's they sound sick they just cost more but you get what you pay for:nod:

Below the bumper
 

No this will not be a problem, When you said turn downs I was thinking that you were going to stop the pipes (with turn downs) at the axle as I have seen many people do. but no.....back at the bumper will be fine

Looking at Spintech's website, they offer like 6 different muffler options, which would be the best to go with to get the sound I want with the clearance and size I want?

I would go with the prostreet series, they are small 4x6x12. I've heard them on a 408 small block duster...they sounded great. A little loud but not nearly as loud as bullets.

theres an article on here about true duals where this one guy has a blown car with chambered mufflers from a 1st gen....sounds amazing and surprisingly not that loud. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/exha...l-exhaust.html 5th post down guys name is willie. there is a sound clip. not say you should steal his idea, but just to help you get ideas for your project.

'69 Z28 mufflers, very unique.

Another question that I initially thought I'd have no use for... X-Pipe. 50% seem to say go for it cause it'll improve air flow. 50% says don't do an X-Pipe because it hurts ground clearance and does nothing except balance the tone. What you think of X-Pipe?

Spintech
 

They sell Oval pipe.Gives youall the clearace you need and they have a muffler for the oval pipe call the"Cruzer" only 2 1/4 inch tall and because of the oval shape it flows as well as a larger round pipe

Ground clearance isn't really the issue for me, it's whether an X-Pipe is worth the extra money... what ya think?

It really depends on what your intentions are for the car if your going to be driving the car all the time go with the X-pipe because it will smooth the tone and will provide you with increased midrange power. If your going to race alot I would just use a H-pipe since you aren't running in midrange at the track much, you more in it for high RPM power.

Uhh... an X-pipe will make more power then an H-pipe.
http://www.pontiacstreetperformance..../exhaust3.html
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles..._installation/

At midrange yes..... which is what I was saying..... At peak RPM no it will not. Look at all the tests that have been conducted. having open pipes made the most peak HP. I was just saying that an X-pipe is going to help his everyday power range whereas he doesn't need that if he is at the track alot. I have ran full 3 inch dual with X-pipe H-pipes and straight pipes all with bullet mufflers and the best so far has been the h-pipe but thats because it is a track car. The x-pipe made more power in midrange on the dyno but fell short in peak power. Those are fine articles but you can dig up thousands of those articles that differ with one another. They are always arguing about what is best and what isn't lol. I am only saying from my own personal experience but hey every engine is different.

For a baseline, we ran the car with open headers and saw 333 hp at 6,300 rpm and 304 lb-ft of torque at 5,200 at the rear wheels

H-pipe designed to fit the company’s full-length headers connected to a set of race-type 2-½-inch welded mufflers with turndowns. Our Mustang’s carbureted 302 didn’t like this combo, as power fell to 323 hp at 6,300 rpm and 295 lb-ft of torque at 5,200.

we swapped on the stepped X-pipe setup and were impressed to see power levels equal to the open headers: 335 hp at 6,300 hp and 302 lb-ft at 5,200.

So
Open headers 333hp @6300rpm
H-pipe 323hp @6300rpm
X-pipe 335 @6300rpm

Thats more peak power.

Everywhere i've looked x pipe has made more peak power.

Really... wow, how interesting. I've always been told that an X-Pipe is near worthless and honestly the two people I listened to most were two guys with 383 true dual 3rd Gen's.

Looks like an X-pipe will be involved in the mix too. How many others have done this... pain in the butt to get this all under the car?

I know you said no flowmaster, but the do offer a bullet style that is a straight thru design, it is all metal, the bullet has ceramic packing which sounds like a glass pack on some cars, the Outlaw flowmaster i speak of is very loud.

Well here is just one of many exhaust that I have ran before on our cars.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/exha...ht=dual+exaust

As you can see I have ran with an X with full exhaust. I recently took that off and ran with an H just to see. Without changing anything else I picked up some MPH and dropped a little et as well. Maybe it was the air change, but maybe not.

Mike1986fyrbird: Im not saying your wrong or anything, obviously it worked better for your combination. I have ran engines that ran better with the X. If that exhaust has made so much more power how come you haven't tried to incorporate something into your car?

Izcain, you know your stuff, I want to go over this with you before I dive into it and realize I'm missing a few things. I want my exhaust to dump out right below the rear bumper, I want to get rid of tips, don't want anything sticking out. So here's what I've been gathering so far on Summit...

Headers
HED-68460
S-Bend Pipes
HED-18802
Straight Pipe
SUM-640025 (x2)

So, the headers come with the gaskets and what not I need, but I'll probably pick up some copper gaskets anyway. So, game plan... need you on this. Headers coming off engine, then hook up the S-Bend pipes to avoid obstacles. And then go into the 2.5in pipes and eventually into X-Pipe. Now from there, what do I need to run the exhaust around the rear axle, or do I just keep running it straight back into the mufflers and turn downs?

hey Cam you should see if Sean could help you with your exhaust ;)

If you are pretty handy with a welder and whatnot you can stop at any midas store (or other exhaust shop) and order 2 prebent mandrel sections for like the 88-92 GMC pickups. They have the nessesary bends in them to go up and over the axles. I took two of those and cut them in certain sections and then rotated the pipes to where I needed them. I would get you the exact gorlich part numbers but I no longer work for the exhaust shop (now im at a dyno shop)......... You will also need to remove the rear rubber brake line that goes to the T on your diff and replace it with a longer sectioned one. You can get these from any of the parts warehouses.

Maybe I should ask for his permission since the car apparently belongs to him and all decisions are made by him. Haha, whatever... anyway back on topic, I'm like 100% focused on this thread right now.
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Izcain, so I really need to go over the rear axle? How about dumping it right at the real axle... think that would be alright?

i like turn downs at the rear of the car instead of the true duals up underneath. Too loud for me

But do I really need/have to run the exhaust up over the axle to dump the exhaust under the rear bumper?

If you dont mind the noise then you will be perfectly fine as long as you have the right mufflers that will provide adequate clearance. Right now I have that exact setup on the car. I have Hedman 1 5/8's on there, S bend 3 inchers, and 3 inch pipe back to a H pipe and I used 4 three bolt flanges to make the whole exhaust removable since I am removing it all the time for working under the car. You just need to remember that having it dump under the car is going to create alot of resonance and is going to pound you inside the cabin and you might not like that if your going to be driving the car all the time.

So did you buy an X-pipe seperately or did yours come with all those pipes and what not? Are you running your x-pipe/h-pipe directly from the s-bends?

When I said... 'with all those pipes', I meant did you get a setup like this?
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

I don't really like how the other X-pipes were built I thought that they were restrictive as opposed to a X-pipe that was smoother so I build my own X-pipes. I have ran both the X and the H right behind the trans cross member without any problems.

So that last link I posted to from Summit, you think I'd be alright with that... cause I'm no master welder or anything.

I think you wont have to much problem with that setup. You might need to tweak the exhaust pipes that come in and go out of the X since that was one of the concerns I had.What mufflers are you going to be using?

Crossed between Bullets and Spintech's... dunno for sure, but probably Bullets.

Man, that X-pipe is expensive stuff, but I don't think any one I know could fab up something quickly and easily for me.

EDIT: What about this... just buying the X-Pipe piece itself and picking up some 2.5in pipes locally, think I'd be alright with that? I'm looking at this here...
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

I like the bullets since they flow next to open exaust. But they are loud (I like the sound!)

As for the x-pipe I think you should have any problems with what your looking at. There is still going to quite a bit of welding if you want it to not leak and be nice looking. As well as some fabbing of some hangers. Wish I was closer cause I would come give ya hand. I could build you an X-pipe but I know that the UPS cost would be nasty lol.

That could work for you. Then you will just need like 4 45 degree bend to make the connections. I still say that X doesn't look very nice. It will work fine for you though!

They're really not hard to make, you just get 2 45 degree bends and slice sections off of them a little bit at a time on the chop saw until you get the desired angle that you would want.

Yeah your awesome man, first person to really sit down and go through the true-duals with me. I've been around them, never personally got into it till now.

Alright, so review.

Headers into S-Bends. After S-Bends do I run pipes then X-Pipe or do I do X-Pipe immediately after S-Bends? After X-Pipe, I run more pipes out into mufflers then turn downs correct?

This was how I like them to look.

I would do headers into S bend then a start going into your x-pipe and then out and more section to the muffler with turndowns right out of the muffler ends.

This is mine with an X

Looks Sweet! Get the pipes and I'll pay ya... but you pay to have'em sent to me :lmao: .

EDIT: you answered this part... (Back to my install questions... the whole process!) But What Bout This? You think turndowns would be worth it if I dump it at the axle? If I don't extend past axle, you think I should go ahead and have it exit straight out instead?

I would definitely use the turn down but I would angle them so they're not a straight shot onto the ground I would angle them to the sides a little bit. I noticed a big difference by doing that.

So you think I would be decently alright by just dumping exhaust at the rear axle without going all the way around the rear axle? And your saying it would be better to have angled turn-downs instead of just running straight exit from the mufflers?

Man, when ya'll started talkin about the X/H pipes here, I thought I was going to be a hair overwhelmed, but ya got this sounding like it's a fairly easy swap... just time consuming.

You'll be fine dumping the exhaust before the rear axle. Yes I would definitly use turn down angled some.

The Swap is fairly easy you just need to have the right things in order to complete it nicely.

I know I'm probably keeping you up all night here(haha, past my bedtime but I'm not gonna miss this informative chance for anything).

Final review here...

Pull out all the old crap. Install new headers, install s-bends, run small piping then into X-Pipe, then piping out of X-Pipe and then into Mufflers immediately following by angled turn down.

As for those headers I am getting, the Heddman's, you don't think I'm going to have any type of problems getting them into the car and mounted up, right?
Headers: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

EDIT: What type of extra 'odd n ends' am I going to need? I have like nearly every tool known to man available as well as a lift. Think it'd be better to have it all welded or just flanged together?

I ran into some problem with the a-arm figment but I know that it was because I am running energy suspension mounts which raise the engine higher the OEM. I had to notch the arm a bit and the restrengthen it up. They fit pretty straight forward. You install them easy from under the car.


I welded flanges on most of my stuff that way I can make everything removable since it is a PITA to gain access to thing when they are not removable. besides the normal gaskets and bolts along with some rubber exaust hangers I don't see to much else that you may need.

Hint: Go to napa and ask for the really nice Victor headers gaskets! you will seal them once and be done and not have to reseal them again unless you take them off. I have run with them now for a while and they are awsome. If I am in the garage tomorrow I will look and see what the part number of them was so you can order yourself a set.

Alright, so headers are 3in collector at end, and the S-bends are 2.5in... so that means the S-bends will just slide right into the Headers and be able to be tightened/locked down?

Your S-bends should start with a 3 inch flange and neck down to your 2.50 piping and should come with a three bolt flange. I would not recommend welding the pipe to the headers.

well heck, here's the S-bends I was looking at... wrong ones? They say 2.5in collector and 2.25in piping
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

As for the 2.5in pipin and X-Pipe, you think I should talk to some local shops tomorrow first just to see what they could do for me about making an X-Pipe or if they have one? It's only like $12 per 4ft of 2.5in pipes through Summit, I don't know if I'll be able to beat that price at a local shop though.

Yea I would say those are the wrong ones.

I would go with these.

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

These will bolt up and work better for you.

Most of the times they have a oversize charge. I would check with the local exhaust shop and see what they will do for you. Worse case scenario I can check and see about getting a couple of 45 for you and making you a X if you didn't want to go with the summit one. I would just use the summit one you were looking at though. that would be the easiest thing.

Alright, so Summit have any turn-downs you recommend? I know dozens of brand's make'em, but I only need a 2.5in collector turn down right? The Dynomax are fairly cheap, unless if a more expensive one is really worth it...

Just look up a set of 45 degree bends and cut and fit to what you would like. They dont have to have a section on them since you are dumping right directly out of the muffler.


Well I gotta jump I will be around tomorrow hit me up if you have any more questions I will answer any pms you have. Have a good one!

Awesome man, your my best friend now! Thanks for all the help and glad you got me definately pointed in the right direction. I will talk to a few exhaust shops in the morning just to see what they have about piping and X-pipes and for any other questions I have, I will PM you. Thanks again, and I'm sorry for keeping you up all night.

Well dang
 

I wasnt much help at all, and I didnt get to be a smart-allic either........Dang. I put an X pipe on my old 78 malibu dirt track car. OPen pipes gave it a really good sound tho. I had changed the heads,cam and added the X pipe so I'm not sure which helped the most. but the car did alot better.I plan on putting a Texas speed X-pipe on my 01 WS6 but I know that is a way down the road

My biggest question now is... what mufflers to go with. Looks like it may be a toss up between Spintech's and Bullets.

Which one is louder between the two?