top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Well here is what im working on :) im looking to make a few if anybody would like one I know I already have a guy who wants one but here is what im doing... for the new people to the thread this is what im planning on doing http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4026_large.jpg with maybe a polish job in the future?? http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4047_large.jpg |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Pics aren't working for me. |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by firebird904
(Post 4889574)
Pics aren't working for me. |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Ill put them up on using my computer |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro so here is what i have so far but as i keep making progress i will keep updating it but my plan is to make the adapter plate with milled intake manifold for $325 i think if i have the time to keep working on it i could have it on by next week or so but i still have to get a FMU before i can run it, any comments or ideas? BTW i plan to make the aluminum adapter plate fit the bottom of the m62 so it wont look like a chunk of aluminum. I should be able to make one for a m90 too but it will require having stronger internals as the boost would be about 15 psi http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4023_large.jpg http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4020_large.jpg http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4022_large.jpg http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4024_large.jpg http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4025_large.jpg |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro here it is in the car at about the right location but without the adapter plate in http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4026_large.jpg http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4027_large.jpg |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Someone PLEASE tell me I'm not the only one who is pretty sure that setup is useless... :idiot: 1. The SC is sitting on top of the stock plenum and would probably be better off outright replacing it. 2. The stock throttle body is still being used and is hooked to the air intake. 3. Because of #2, the SC has no metered air inlet, and also the intake bellows is in the way of the belt drive. 4. Also because of #2, even if you did get the SC working SOMEHOW, you would blow ANY pressure made right out through the open throttle plate and the engine wouldn't be able to get any air inside it. You need a complete redesign there... It's not hard to fabricate a box to replace the upper plenum and to attach a 180* elbow to the SC inlet with extension to allow the stock TB to attach, I wouldn't think... |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro The air in a m62 comes in from the back and down through the bottom which is why im cutting a hole in the top of the intake as for the old throttle body hole in the front that's going to get capped off or cut off and removed, the stock tb I plan to connect via aluminum piping to to the back. Does that make sence? I can get some more pictures of the supercharger to show you if you want? |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro I think if you were to get the pizza box style intake in the sticky up top only with out the throttle body and just the hole cut for the supercharger it might work a little better. |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro I could agree with that it would be easy to stick the m62 tothat intake but id have to buy that for 300 and then cut it whereas I cut an intake and use my mill and a chunk of aluminum and some time and I get the same result |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Why not just ditch the upper and make the adaptor plate bolt directly to the lower? Youd have to make the plate bigger and possibly thicker, and depending on the skillz on the millz u might have somethin of a wicked rad carb spacer mutant thing goin when when you are done. And it might cut down on T&M down the road for not needing a UIM source and might simplify a few things IMO. A friggen + on use of creastivity and available tools and material.... Got me smilin and thinkin....Subscribed to watch the Brainstorm. |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro ur deffinatly on the right track.cut the throttle body neck off and weld a plate to fill the hole. do u have the ability to weld aluminum? i have designed 2 adapters myself ones is based on the pizza box which is very simple. but i have an even simpler design that will bolt the blower directly to the lower intake manifold. i did mine around a m90 not an m62. but this design should fit it under the stock hood without issues also u have a mass air based car u probably wont need and fmu, it all depends on how much boost u end up with from the blower |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Been over this build in my mind before and just wonder will the bolts for it all go through the intake for strength or? alot of leverage on the snout from the belt. my other mind build was side mount, would need a big hunk of metal ike that for a mount platform. Then just duck the air out the bottom into the intake. |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro im sure his plan is to weld the adapter plate to the top of the manifold.with the plate being drilled and taped for either bolts or more then likley studs, if doing it either of those ways it will be way more then sturdy enough |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by project89
(Post 4890216)
im sure his plan is to weld the adapter plate to the top of the manifold.with the plate being drilled and taped for either bolts or more then likley studs, if doing it either of those ways it will be way more then sturdy enough |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro i ran a turbo with the bone stock ecm no problems, its not so much the amount of boost presure its actually the amount of air that becomes a problem. best bet is leave it alone and use a wideband o2 sensor and see if it goes lean. if u record the o2 readings and it is say 12.5-1 afr u can do some simple math to say bump up the fuel presure to bring the afrs to 12.0-1 same as if its at 13.5-1 afr u can calculate how much more fuel u need and adjust fp or injector sizing within reason to get the afrs to a safe level |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Also the reason why I chose this way was there isn't a lot of room on the passenger side for the m62 and the cost of the adapter was $225 buy then you have to make mounting brackets and buy the aluminum tubing for plumbing the charged air and you would still have to fit in the intake for the throttle body side, so I thought it more economical to put it on top and not have to do that stuff, I could be wrong though |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Oh well that would be easy for the tuning aspect |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro past projects have pretty much proved you can toss 7psi at one and not even worry about it. |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by Gumby past projects have pretty much proved you can toss 7psi at one and not even worry about it.... |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro well the m62 is going to push about 460cfm of air into the 2.8 however it will only have about 170 cfm of actual boosted air if that helps any... but here is my progress for the day intake finished :) http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4028_large.jpg http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4029_large.jpg and i have the adapter plate on the mill to get started at that :) http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4030_large.jpg |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro nice job there mike, dont forget to measure twice and cut once, as a machinest i know that piece of plate wasnt cheap lol. deff cant wait to see the end result |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by mikeal8208 well the m62 is going to push about 460cfm of air into the 2.8 however it will only have about 170 cfm of actual boosted air if that helps any.... |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Well it will only go over 8 psi at 6000 engine Rpms at which point the boost would be 8.6 psi |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Well thats good it will only go over 8 psi @ redline :) by .6 psi I hope I don't mess up on it 1 inch thick aluminum ur right it isnt cheap and I looked for about a month before I found someone who had it :) |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro both the carb and TBI s10-15 V6 fagoel super charger kit was 5psi out of the box and ran as is great. If a MPFI can't deal with 7psi, something is wrong. many past project have shown it can deal with it. though loggin and watching AF ratio's is always a good idea. But if folks still need proof, Ill be a test mule, give me a free 7psi turbo kit and Ill run it as is like I stole it on my 230,000 mile 2.8 ;) |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by Gumby both the carb and TBI s10-15 V6 fagoel super charger kit was 5psi out of the box and ran as is great. If a MPFI can't deal with 7psi, something is wrong.many past project have shown it can deal with it. though loggin and watching AF ratio's is always a good idea. But if folks still need proof, Ill be a test mule, give me a free 7psi turbo kit and Ill run it as is like I stole it on my 230,000 mile 2.8 ;) |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by mikeal8208 Well thats good it will only go over 8 psi @ redline.... |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro So your saying I should put some larger injectors in? So if I put in the injectors that were with the supercharger (1993 buick park avenue ultra injectors) which I think are 21#s per hour to replace them with th 17#? per hour injectors I have currently if they will fit? |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Its not just as simple as putting in bigger injectors, you have to tune the ECM for it to know that its not dealing with 17#/hrs anymore. |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Rob, I believe Dave was talking about using the stock tables and an FMU with larger injectors and a lower base pressure. Not the best way to go about it, but it works. I blew my 3.1 twice from trying to tune that way at 6psi, be cautious. |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by firstfirebird
(Post 4891657)
Rob, I believe Dave was talking about using the stock tables and an FMU with larger injectors and a lower base pressure. Not the best way to go about it, but it works. I blew my 3.1 twice from trying to tune that way at 6psi, be cautious. a stock 2.8 ecm will run 21# injectors just fine, though slightly rich at part throttle , 3.1 speed density systems are a different story i have wideband logs of when i did 21# injectors on a completly stock engine with a turbo ill post up once im done swaping the carb for the tpi setup on my iroc today |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by mikeal8208 So your saying I should put some larger injectors in? So if I put in the injectors that were with the supercharger (1993 buick park avenue ultra injectors) which I think are 21#s per hour to replace them with th 17#? per hour injectors I have currently if they will fit....? |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by project89 unless he passes the maf limit then its needed.... |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
(Post 4891869)
No, keep your stock injectors, otherwise you will run rich at idle without a tune. If your going to run an old fashioned FMU, you need to get an adjustable one like the one Vortech uses (varying ratios), this way you can at least dial in your fuel. What I said above was in response to those saying that the stock ECM will cover you up to 8-psi, which is nonsense. An inch of vacuum (kpa) has a great deal less air than a pound of boost (psi), and the ECM is blind in knowing how much fuel to supply uncalculated psi air. Ideally, spend the seventy five bucks and have someone burn you a chip w/larger injectors, calculate the amount of boost you plan on running at wide open throttle, then add that much fuel to the alpha-n tables. Part throttle has O2 correction. You don't need an FMU, a new chip will work fine.... before we installed the megasquirt system on my car i would daily drive my car at 12 psi with the stock ecm and 21# injectors while not the best way to do it it does work with a maf based system |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by project89 rob he has a mass air system not a pseed density system, what u are saying holds true for a speed density system,but not for the maf system.... |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro The only limit to a maf system is how much the maf will read, regardless of pressure. It's a mass flow meter it doesn't care what the pressure is so long as there isn't excessive heat. X amount of airflow at Y rpm needs Z amount of fuel. The limit on a stock v6 maf is 150 g/sec, above that the ecm is blind and you tune alpha-n if you have enough injector and a linear flow curve (not variable like a turbo). Where do you get the idea that the maf tables aren't used at wot? They're always used because it's the only airflow measurement device it has. |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro 2 Attachment(s) Attachment 394444 Attachment 394445 as u can see 21# injectors with a stock 2.8 ecm work just fine it is only slightly rich at part throttle cruising 14.5-15.5 afrs under part throttle cruise. it should be up in the low 16's |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Some people sit with a pen and paper and say why it can’t be done and don’t bother. And some just go ahead and do it, and find out why it can be done. Has been done, has worked, will work, some needs to get off the bench and wrench. ---------- project89 had no idea folks still used winamp ;) that program is OLD |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by Gumby
(Post 4892459)
---------- project89 had no idea folks still used winamp ;) that program is OLD |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by bl85c The only limit to a maf system is how much the maf will read, regardless of pressure....
Originally Posted by bl85c It's a mass flow meter it doesn't care what the pressure is so long as there isn't excessive heat. X amount of airflow at Y rpm needs Z amount of fuel....
Originally Posted by bl85c The limit on a stock v6 maf is 150 g/sec, above that the ecm is blind and you tune alpha-n if you have enough injector and a linear flow curve (not variable like a turbo)....
Originally Posted by bl85c Where do you get the idea that the maf tables aren't used at wot? They're always used because it's the only airflow measurement device it has.... |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by project89 as u can see 21# injectors with a stock 2.8 ecm work just fine it is only slightly rich at part throttle cruising 14.5-15.5 afrs under part throttle cruise. it should be up in the low 16's.... |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro I milled my adapter plate down to fit closer to the m62 foot print i have some more cutting to do to get it to fit better but its a start http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4036_large.jpg http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4034_large.jpghttp://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4033_large.jpghttp://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...4035_large.jpg |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro sounds like there is a lot of ways to do the tuning but I'm thinking that i should put the 21# injectors in and run it a little rich and then get the ECM tuned when i can for the injectors and i should also have a wide band 02 sensor just to make sure i don't go to lean and a FMU to tune the fuel going into system to try and keep the AF to 14.7:1 however a mega squirt system is probably needed later but preferably sooner? |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Just thought id throw this up :) 375 hp/ 440 tq 2.8 on boost http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/103956.html |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro
Originally Posted by mikeal8208
(Post 4894228)
Just thought id throw this up :) 375 hp/ 440 tq 2.8 on boost http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/103956.html |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Let's play dissect-a-quote!
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
(Post 4892512)
That is a major limitation, you speak of it as being merely a slight set back....
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
(Post 4892512)
Who here said that it doesn't calculate air flow (when it is programmed to, and when it is within it's threshold capability)? What I said was that if you do not rescale the MAF table, you are subjected to a stock configuration, and in a stock configuration, the MAF will not see boost when it exceeds it's g/sec, not to mention in Open Loop, and if your telling me that it will, please provide factual data....
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
(Post 4892512)
Again, your detering the argument. In a stock application, the ECM will not handle the boost, period. You can fudge the MAF scale, you can install an adjustable MAF, you can add fuel in the alpha-n lookup, you can add slightly larger injectors, you can add an FMU, or you can simply increase fuel pressure, you can do whatever it takes to get that fuel there at wide open throttle, but that is no longer a "stock" application though, which was the whole point of what I was saying....
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
(Post 4892512)
That is incorrect, and where did you get the idea that airflow is being measured at wide open throttle? The point of measuring airflow is to provide some form of 02 correction, in which there is none during Open Loop in a stock prom, unless we program otherwise, and if we program otherwise, then the target air/fuel ratio table won't be used for base fuel calculation, but the ECM will attempt to correct differences between the measured air/fuel ratios and the values in the target air/fuel ratio table, but Alpha-N Closed Loop is not prevalent in a stock prom though. Stock, alpha-n does not measure airflow at wide open throttle, it calculates it based on RPM vs TPS, and there is no target air/fuel ratio at wide open throttle unless we program it otherwise.... One question. How much code have you written for the '165? |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Have you got any more done on your super charger project??? Randy |
Re: top mount m62 supercharged v6 camaro Yea im working on the last parts of milling the adapter plate but I've been a little slow on my progress lately because im working on joining the air force |
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