Well here is what im working on im looking to make a few if anybody would like one I know I already have a guy who wants one but here is what im doing...

for the new people to the thread this is what im planning on doing



with maybe a polish job in the future??

 

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Pics aren't working for me.

 

ditto

 

Ill put them up on using my computer

 

so here is what i have so far but as i keep making progress i will keep updating it but my plan is to make the adapter plate with milled intake manifold for $325 i think if i have the time to keep working on it i could have it on by next week or so but i still have to get a FMU before i can run it, any comments or ideas? BTW i plan to make the aluminum adapter plate fit the bottom of the m62 so it wont look like a chunk of aluminum. I should be able to make one for a m90 too but it will require having stronger internals as the boost would be about 15 psi

 

here it is in the car at about the right location but without the adapter plate in

 

Someone PLEASE tell me I'm not the only one who is pretty sure that setup is useless...

1. The SC is sitting on top of the stock plenum and would probably be better off outright replacing it.
2. The stock throttle body is still being used and is hooked to the air intake.
3. Because of #2, the SC has no metered air inlet, and also the intake bellows is in the way of the belt drive.
4. Also because of #2, even if you did get the SC working SOMEHOW, you would blow ANY pressure made right out through the open throttle plate and the engine wouldn't be able to get any air inside it.

You need a complete redesign there... It's not hard to fabricate a box to replace the upper plenum and to attach a 180* elbow to the SC inlet with extension to allow the stock TB to attach, I wouldn't think...

 

The air in a m62 comes in from the back and down through the bottom which is why im cutting a hole in the top of the intake as for the old throttle body hole in the front that's going to get capped off or cut off and removed, the stock tb I plan to connect via aluminum piping to to the back. Does that make sence? I can get some more pictures of the supercharger to show you if you want?

 

I think if you were to get the pizza box style intake in the sticky up top only with out the throttle body and just the hole cut for the supercharger it might work a little better.

 

I could agree with that it would be easy to stick the m62 tothat intake but id have to buy that for 300 and then cut it whereas I cut an intake and use my mill and a chunk of aluminum and some time and I get the same result

 

Why not just ditch the upper and make the adaptor plate bolt directly to the lower? Youd have to make the plate bigger and possibly thicker, and depending on the skillz on the millz u might have somethin of a wicked rad carb spacer mutant thing goin when when you are done. And it might cut down on T&M down the road for not needing a UIM source and might simplify a few things IMO. A friggen + on use of creastivity and available tools and material.... Got me smilin and thinkin....Subscribed to watch the Brainstorm.

 

ur deffinatly on the right track.cut the throttle body neck off and weld a plate to fill the hole.

do u have the ability to weld aluminum?
i have designed 2 adapters myself ones is based on the pizza box which is very simple.

but i have an even simpler design that will bolt the blower directly to the lower intake manifold. i did mine around a m90 not an m62. but this design should fit it under the stock hood without issues

also u have a mass air based car u probably wont need and fmu, it all depends on how much boost u end up with from the blower

 

Been over this build in my mind before and just wonder will the bolts for it all go through the intake for strength or?

alot of leverage on the snout from the belt.

my other mind build was side mount, would need a big hunk of metal ike that for a mount platform. Then just duck the air out the bottom into the intake.

 

im sure his plan is to weld the adapter plate to the top of the manifold.with the plate being drilled and taped for either bolts or more then likley studs,

if doing it either of those ways it will be way more then sturdy enough

 

You got it, btw that chunk of metal weighs 15.7 lbs uncut right now, I will try to use the stock componets but from what I've heard the stock mass airflow can't keep up with 9 lbs of boost if that's wrong that would be sweet but Idk I haven't really looked into the Tunning portion of the build

 

i ran a turbo with the bone stock ecm no problems, its not so much the amount of boost presure its actually the amount of air that becomes a problem.

best bet is leave it alone and use a wideband o2 sensor and see if it goes lean.

if u record the o2 readings and it is say 12.5-1 afr u can do some simple math to say bump up the fuel presure to bring the afrs to 12.0-1

same as if its at 13.5-1 afr u can calculate how much more fuel u need and adjust fp or injector sizing within reason to get the afrs to a safe level

 

Also the reason why I chose this way was there isn't a lot of room on the passenger side for the m62 and the cost of the adapter was $225 buy then you have to make mounting brackets and buy the aluminum tubing for plumbing the charged air and you would still have to fit in the intake for the throttle body side, so I thought it more economical to put it on top and not have to do that stuff, I could be wrong though

 

Oh well that would be easy for the tuning aspect

 

past projects have pretty much proved you can toss 7psi at one and not even worry about it.

 

That is only if the INT hasn't reached it's limit. Meaning his BLM's could read upwards of 150, but so long as the INT is hovering around the 130-145 mark then it is still averaging stoichiometric, and he'll be okay....

 

well the m62 is going to push about 460cfm of air into the 2.8 however it will only have about 170 cfm of actual boosted air if that helps any... but here is my progress for the day
intake finished



and i have the adapter plate on the mill to get started at that

 

nice job there mike, dont forget to measure twice and cut once, as a machinest i know that piece of plate wasnt cheap lol.
deff cant wait to see the end result

 

It doesn't, because cfm is meaningless. The equation for boost pressure is 1-psi divided by normal atmoshperic pressure (14.7 at sea level). 1 divided by 14.7 equals 6.802%, and that is approximately how much additional fuel and air will be burned per pound of boost. The stock ECM has a threshold of about 6% 02 correction on both sides of the BLM spectrum, so for someone to simply say that the ECM can correct up to 8-psi, 54.421% of additional air and fuel, is completely ludicrous. This is why I said it depends on where your short term fuel is (INT), and not the actual BLM count....

 

Well it will only go over 8 psi at 6000 engine Rpms at which point the boost would be 8.6 psi

 

Well thats good it will only go over 8 psi @ redline by .6 psi I hope I don't mess up on it 1 inch thick aluminum ur right it isnt cheap and I looked for about a month before I found someone who had it

 

both the carb and TBI s10-15 V6 fagoel super charger kit was 5psi out of the box and ran as is great.

If a MPFI can't deal with 7psi, something is wrong.

many past project have shown it can deal with it.

though loggin and watching AF ratio's is always a good idea.


But if folks still need proof, Ill be a test mule, give me a free 7psi turbo kit and Ill run it as is like I stole it on my 230,000 mile 2.8

 

I don't think you understand what is being said, so I will say it another way. Putting aside the increased oxygen count through the blower, if I added 30-lb injectors to a prom already tuned for 24-lb injectors in a naturally aspirated application (rich), that is a 6% increase in fuel in which the ECM now needs to correct for. That percentage of 6% is where the ECM reaches it's limit in terms of adjusting pulse width in conjunction with the stock prom configuration. Now in a blowers case, we are now on the other side of the BLM spectrum, and are now adding 6% of oxygen per one pound of boost (lean) in which the ECM needs to again compensate for. Anything over 6% using the stock prom and the ECM can no longer correct. People may have gotten away with it in the past, but they were running way too lean in doing so and not even realizing it, and it is just a matter of time before the engine goes....

 

There is more to it than that, and I'm only telling you this because I don't want to see you blow your engine. At wide open throttle, there is no O2 correction anymore because the ECM is in Open Loop. It bases fueling through TPS & RPM, and those lookup tables were designed for a naturally aspirated engine. Do you understand what I am saying, when you floor the throttle, your only getting enough fuel for a stock 2.8 because the O2 readings become irrelevant, and at 6-psi you will be running extremely rich at WOT....

 

So your saying I should put some larger injectors in? So if I put in the injectors that were with the supercharger (1993 buick park avenue ultra injectors) which I think are 21#s per hour to replace them with th 17#? per hour injectors I have currently if they will fit?

 

Its not just as simple as putting in bigger injectors, you have to tune the ECM for it to know that its not dealing with 17#/hrs anymore.

 

Rob, I believe Dave was talking about using the stock tables and an FMU with larger injectors and a lower base pressure. Not the best way to go about it, but it works.

I blew my 3.1 twice from trying to tune that way at 6psi, be cautious.

 

not exactly just 21# injectors no fmu unless he passes the maf limit then its needed.

a stock 2.8 ecm will run 21# injectors just fine, though slightly rich at part throttle , 3.1 speed density systems are a different story

i have wideband logs of when i did 21# injectors on a completly stock engine with a turbo ill post up once im done swaping the carb for the tpi setup on my iroc today

 

No, keep your stock injectors, otherwise you will run rich at idle without a tune. If your going to run an old fashioned FMU, you need to get an adjustable one like the one Vortech uses (varying ratios), this way you can at least dial in your fuel. What I said above was in response to those saying that the stock ECM will cover you up to 8-psi, which is nonsense. An inch of vacuum (kpa) has a great deal less air than a pound of boost (psi), and the ECM is blind in knowing how much fuel to supply uncalculated psi air. Ideally, spend the seventy five bucks and have someone burn you a chip w/larger injectors, calculate the amount of boost you plan on running at wide open throttle, then add that much fuel to the alpha-n tables. Part throttle has O2 correction. You don't need an FMU, a new chip will work fine....

 

The problem with that, is that without rescaling the MAF tables it is impossible for the ECM to see boost. Remember that the 255 g/sec limit is in the ECM , and not the MAF sensor itself (and remember that the MAF tables are useless at wide open throttle, because your in Open Loop). The stock MAF parameters are just about maxed at 0" of vacuum, and when you add 1-psi beyond that, your adding way more air than just an inch of kpa. The ECM can correct for 21-lb injectors because that isn't that much of a percentage increase, and the only benefit of that is that the injectors will go static, and instead of a 19# flow rate, you now have a 21# flow rate, which helps, but still very risky....

 

rob he has a mass air system not a pseed density system, what u are saying holds true for a speed density system,but not for the maf system.

before we installed the megasquirt system on my car i would daily drive my car at 12 psi with the stock ecm and 21# injectors

while not the best way to do it it does work with a maf based system

 

Dave, trust me, I have burned countless chips for the '7165 and '7148, and what I am saying holds true for any system utilizing 02 correction. The MAF has 6% correction capability in stock form, and beyond 0" of vacuum the air is uncalculated. Incidently, MAF systems become Speed Density in a sense the moment wide open throttle takes place, and fueling is immediately based on TPS times RPM (alpha-n lookup table)....

 

The only limit to a maf system is how much the maf will read, regardless of pressure. It's a mass flow meter it doesn't care what the pressure is so long as there isn't excessive heat. X amount of airflow at Y rpm needs Z amount of fuel. The limit on a stock v6 maf is 150 g/sec, above that the ecm is blind and you tune alpha-n if you have enough injector and a linear flow curve (not variable like a turbo). Where do you get the idea that the maf tables aren't used at wot? They're always used because it's the only airflow measurement device it has.

 

as u can see 21# injectors with a stock 2.8 ecm work just fine it is only slightly rich at part throttle cruising 14.5-15.5 afrs under part throttle cruise. it should be up in the low 16's

 

Some people sit with a pen and paper and say why it can’t be done and don’t bother. And some just go ahead and do it, and find out why it can be done.

Has been done, has worked, will work, some needs to get off the bench and wrench.

----------
project89 had no idea folks still used winamp that program is OLD

 

winamp for music and vlc for all my videos , 2 of the best programs for both

 

That is a major limitation, you speak of it as being merely a slight set back....

Who here said that it doesn't calculate air flow (when it is programmed to, and when it is within it's threshold capability)? What I said was that if you do not rescale the MAF table, you are subjected to a stock configuration, and in a stock configuration, the MAF will not see boost when it exceeds it's g/sec, not to mention in Open Loop, and if your telling me that it will, please provide factual data....

Again, your detering the argument. In a stock application, the ECM will not handle the boost, period. You can fudge the MAF scale, you can install an adjustable MAF, you can add fuel in the alpha-n lookup, you can add slightly larger injectors, you can add an FMU, or you can simply increase fuel pressure, you can do whatever it takes to get that fuel there at wide open throttle, but that is no longer a "stock" application though, which was the whole point of what I was saying....

That is incorrect, and where did you get the idea that airflow is being measured at wide open throttle? The point of measuring airflow is to provide some form of 02 correction, in which there is none during Open Loop in a stock prom, unless we program otherwise, and if we program otherwise, then the target air/fuel ratio table won't be used for base fuel calculation, but the ECM will attempt to correct differences between the measured air/fuel ratios and the values in the target air/fuel ratio table, but Alpha-N Closed Loop is not prevalent in a stock prom though. Stock, alpha-n does not measure airflow at wide open throttle, it calculates it based on RPM vs TPS, and there is no target air/fuel ratio at wide open throttle unless we program it otherwise....

 

Dave, your showing somebody who has not only seen your car, but who has also been in your car, and the tune wasn't anywhere near what it should have been before you added that fuel pressure regulator that we nabbed from the junkyard and the Megasquirt. Like I said, nobody is saying that the engine won't run, what is being said though is that it is only a matter of time, so why take chances. Even that kid running the 2.8 turbo on youtube, he will be the first to tell you how lean the engine was running. It lasted him for a little while, yes, but again, it was just a matter of time before his engine finally went....

 

I milled my adapter plate down to fit closer to the m62 foot print i have some more cutting to do to get it to fit better but its a start

 

sounds like there is a lot of ways to do the tuning but I'm thinking that i should put the 21# injectors in and run it a little rich and then get the ECM tuned when i can for the injectors and i should also have a wide band 02 sensor just to make sure i don't go to lean and a FMU to tune the fuel going into system to try and keep the AF to 14.7:1 however a mega squirt system is probably needed later but preferably sooner?

 

Just thought id throw this up 375 hp/ 440 tq 2.8 on boost
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/103956.html

 

great numbers but wonder why it took him 20 psi to achieve them, i did 270/370 hp tq threw and unlocked 700r4 @ 9psi with ignition issues that severely limited power

 

Let's play dissect-a-quote!

It is a limitation to anyone who isn't tuning that maxes out the maf, but it's not the end all as long as it isn't turbocharged. How far you can push it beyond that point is determined by how much larger your injectors are than the ecm thinks they are and how far the ecm will take you before it's too lean again. Not the correct way to do it but it works. But I also said that once you do hit the maf limit and decide to tune it you can go alpha-n using the wot fueling table provided it's a linear flow curve. Again not the best way to do it but it's been done.

I don't think we're on the same page. My impression is that you seem to think a maf system is incapable of reading airflow or is massively skewed under pressure. It doesn't matter what the pressure is. It speaks a different laguage. Only the quantity of air passing over the wire matters.

Somehow countless people have turbocharged stock maf systems and got away with it. There is some leeway in how far you can push a stock system before the injectors go static or you run out of maf. Could crap out at 6psi, could crap out at 3psi who knows. Somehow it's been done. But who the hell boosts a stock system without some kind of compensation? The op said himself he's getting an fmu. Moot argument.

No, again airflow is measured at all times (unless there is a maf/map failure). It's not just an emissions device, it's the ecm's sole airflow measurement device. The ecm doesn't switch to alpha-n because it's in power enrichment. If that were the case no car could ever be reliably turbocharged because there would be no way for it to measure actual airflow. Perhaps you need to research what the ecm is actually doing. But we're starting to thread jack here...

One question. How much code have you written for the '165?

 

Have you got any more done on your super charger project???

Randy

 

Yea im working on the last parts of milling the adapter plate but I've been a little slow on my progress lately because im working on joining the air force