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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
I have been conflicted with this question for awhile so I would appreciate feedback and the pros/cons for both.
I have a 1990 Firebird Formula 305 TPI. I have had it since 2000 and it was my everyday driver for awhile. I want to bring it back to it's glory days, enjoy as a weekend driver and hit some shows. I know the production numbers on the car were high so it's not super collectable (at least right now). I am not restoring this car intending to sell it, but lets be honest. When I'm dead and gone it would be passed on to my kids and I would like to think of it as an investment for them.
I have a friend who is a racer and has a NHRA car he built. Of course he is trying to convince me to pull the crappy 305 and drop in a new 350. If I do that where does it end? Do I update the interior? Some body mods? I don't want to do anything that will hurt the originality and potential collectability of the car. I always wanted to keep everything numbers matching, but I also want to enjoy the car too.
My Dad restored a 1965 Mustang Fastback with all standard features when I was a kid and he changed everything from stock; The motor, interior package, the color. There was nothing except maybe the trans that was numbers matching. In the end it hurt the value of the car and he got no where near what he put in to it.
I know 3rd gens are a whole other thing. The car is only 25 years old and no one but us really care about these cars, but where will they be in 25 more? They made 4,834 and by then how many would have survived? How many would be unmolested and will that really matter?
I love my unmolested 1992 . . . and have worked extremely hard to put back every bit as close to original as possible . . . love the challenge to find the missing piece.
It all falls down to what do you want . . . if you modify it keep all the old parts to put it back if you want the option
Most important is to enjoy it as much as possible. But you are right, how many of the 3rd gens have survived?
I am a stock, original person. I enjoy my cars for what they were back in the 80's. I have always felt they will have more value that way down the road.
Do what you feel is right for you. Ultimately you will probably spend more on mods than you will ever get back if you sell. But if you plan on keeping the car long term, that may not matter to you.
Yea, my gut tells me keep it stock. As much as it pains me to think about rebuilding a 305 (and for what it cost I could probably buy a crate 350) I think the numbers matching factor will matter in time.
I saw a 70 corvette on What's My Car Worth that took a hit because they upgraded the tranny. It was a high production model, all stock except for that and was a difference between c and b for collectability.
I'm a stock person also. If you build the 305, just do a fresh upgade, throw some headers and free flowing exhaust on it, and call it a day! Just ENJOY it then!
Another vote for stock. Tired of seeing these cars with hideous interior and underhood mods, color changes, etc (when I actually do see them, which is rare).
Enjoyment is more important than monetary value.
I'd rather get value out of enjoying it for years than money I may or may not ever even see.
Also understand that in this sub forum you will see a very biased response to your question as they will nearly all tell you stock.
Last edited by Vanilla Ice; Jul 29, 2016 at 11:43 AM.
I've only had my 91 Formula 305 TBI for about 3 and a half months now, It's not my daily driver and I've decided to keep it as stock as possible. Right now the air cleaner is the only modification I've made to it, and might switch back if I can get the original looking nicer. I didn't buy the car because it was fast - im aware it's very much not. It was in great condition and being 21 and young it's an accessible entry to cars. I really, really wanted to avoid getting an import, not because of where they come from but I'm not a big fan of the "general" crowd they attract. I've seen some tasteful things, but in general It's just not me.
The way I see things personally is that this is a relatively inexpensive way to have a little fun as a hobby while maintaining good finances until the day when I can afford an even better fun car, rather than dumping money into this one until it's fastish. I also don't expect any value whatsoever for the car when I do sell it. It's my hobby, and money I put into it I always consider lost. For my specific personality and situation this is what works for me, everyone has different opinions and they're entitled to it. I figure if I step my toe into the pond by say, modifying the exhaust so it sounds loud but there's no power behind it... it's just a big-hat-no-cattle show that doesn't do much for me.
I went through this same debate when looking for a toy/project car. If I had found one in great shape with all the options and features I wanted, or was a low production number car, I would have kept it stock. But knowing me, and how much I like to tinker, it made much more sense to get something that wouldn't be hugely valuable someday. Which is one of the big reasons I got the 92 I have now. It was a base model V6/T5 with only power windows and locks. It was also wrecked, and even though it wasn't R-titled, I knew it probably wouldn't be worth six figures someday.
Now my dad's 67 Corvette convertible is an entirely different animal. Even though it has the 327, it is worth enough that I would keep it stock and numbers matching.
I'm a fan of tearing stuff down and rebuilding better than OEM. I bought my car with that in mind; it was never going to be a collector car but the body is in good shape with very little rust. So I didn't feel bad about cutting holes for the transmission swap, ripping out all the HVAC stuff, or installing better brakes. It's really rewarding to do all the research (this site is a great resource for that), figure out how everything goes together, and get it all installed and working. At the same time, a worthwhile mod should actually DO something IMO; adding cosmetic scoops, loud exhaust, and heavy body kits for appearance's sake just seems silly.
I think it's very unlikely you'll ever get more out of the car than you put into it. Personally, I have always looked at my car as a hobby (actually, the ONLY hobby) rather than an investment. On the other hand, that's what makes sense for me; your situation is probably different. And I'm not trying to insult the guys who focus on restoration work. There are some really amazing examples of that type of thing on TGO.
I'm a stock person also. If you build the 305, just do a fresh upgade, throw some headers and free flowing exhaust on it, and call it a day! Just ENJOY it then!
That sounds like a good plan. Thanks to all for your feedback
Anything that was available early 90s is fair game, imo.
I agree with this. These cars were great when they were new, but many owners modified their new or nearly new cars. I think the modifications that were often done then are a big part of the third gen heritage too. But I do think that every single original serviceable part should be saved when it comes to the more desirable models. If the car ever goes up for sale, the next guy will appreciate it. Or if you change your mind down the road, you can always put it back how it was. It's just bolts after all.
Also, I can appreciate stock and modified cars. Although I tend to gravitate towards the stock stuff or cars that look like they could be stock.
If the car has ripped seats and baked interior plastics, I see no reason why an interior color change should be frowned upon. If the car is high miles , been though several owners and/or the stock motor is gone, swapping in a new engine for more power is fine too. And it can always be made to have an original appearance.
In short, I don't think everything needs to be stock. The condition of the car should help make the should/shouldn't decisions. In this case, it sounds like it would be a good car to keep stock with the previously mentioned era-correct modifications as a possibility.
Think of this. They made about 1.5 million 3rd gens over a period of 10 years.
I doubt that they'll really appreciate all that much. Unless you have one of those seemingly rare ultra low mileage examples that have been stored in a container somewhere, I say treat them for what they are. And that's a decent platform to do just about whatever you want.
From a personal point of view I like the stock outward appearance but with the typical upgrades in driveline, suspension, etc.
As always though, to each his own.
Think of this. They made about 1.5 million 3rd gens over a period of 10 years.
I doubt that they'll really appreciate all that much. Unless you have one of those seemingly rare ultra low mileage examples that have been stored in a container somewhere, I say treat them for what they are. And that's a decent platform to do just about whatever you want.
From a personal point of view I like the stock outward appearance but with the typical upgrades in driveline, suspension, etc.
As always though, to each his own.
This about sums it all up. If you want a 350 in your Formula go ahead and put it in. It's nothing special of a car. An upgraded drivetrain will make the car more fun to drive and then just keep a relative stock appearance on the interior and exterior.
Or if you are going to rebuild the 305 put a mild cam in it like a Crane 2032 (requires no tuning), some 3.73 gears in the rear axle and mild torque convertor in the trans and enjoy it that way. You can't see any of those mods and they just add more performance without changing stock appearance of the car
Last edited by burnout88; Jul 30, 2016 at 12:00 PM.
I know these threads come up quite often, and there are million opinions, but it's still a fun discussion.
First, I'll agree with the general sentiment that for the most part, "most" thirdgens are never gonna see outrageous collector prices. Sure, values are going up, no argument, but are you going to put your kids (or grandkids) through college with a "stock" car, but not with a modded car? No.
Beyond that, what is the car to YOU? My goal for my car has always been to keep it 99% stock appearing as it rolls down the street, Keep the TPI, and finally, do the vast majority of the work myself. 18 years of ownership and I haven't wavered yet.
You can look at some of the cars the pro shops are building like Foose or the Ring Brothers, and appreciate the shear talent and skill they bring into making those cars, but to me they almost lose some the character that GM (or whatever make) gave the car to begin with. The imperfections are part of the character. Like our own personalities. .....but on the other hand, to me, a bone stock thirdgen doesn't really perform like I would like, and I personally at least can't afford more than one "weekend" ride. Plus I like to tinker. I'm glad some of you love the stock cars, but it's not for me.
At the end of the day, why does someone feel they can add an aftermarket hood, but yet no way can they remove the stock wheels? We are ALL different. Who knows why we do what we do. BUT....if you don't build the car for you...you'll never be happy with it.
I love my unmolested 1992 . . . and have worked extremely hard to put back every bit as close to original as possible . . . love the challenge to find the missing piece.
It all falls down to what do you want . . . if you modify it keep all the old parts to put it back if you want the option
Most important is to enjoy it as much as possible. But you are right, how many of the 3rd gens have survived?
I agree with this, with one observation...
How many 3rd gens have survived? If you asked me a few years ago, I'd say very few. However, it seems new low-mile survivors come out into the open every day. Search cars.com, Hemmings, craigslist, and so on, and there are plenty out there. The prices of them are little higher these days, but there are still some being offered with very buyer-friendly pricing. Perhaps this is a symptom of the internet giving a forum for sharing these cars, or maybe an unusual amount of owners preserved these things.
How many 3rd gens have survived? If you asked me a few years ago, I'd say very few. However, it seems new low-mile survivors come out into the open every day. Search cars.com, Hemmings, craigslist, and so on, and there are plenty out there. The prices of them are little higher these days, but there are still some being offered with very buyer-friendly pricing. Perhaps this is a symptom of the internet giving a forum for sharing these cars, or maybe an unusual amount of owners preserved these things.
I guess it depends where you live. Here in New Jersey there are very few birds for sale. I always see Camaros, but normally in really bad shape. When I bought mine in 2002 I drove down to VA to get it. Everything here was either a rusted out s**t box or a lowered, tricked out s**t box. Not much different now.
This about sums it all up. If you want a 350 in your Formula go ahead and put it in. It's nothing special of a car. An upgraded drivetrain will make the car more fun to drive and then just keep a relative stock appearance on the interior and exterior.
Or if you are going to rebuild the 305 put a mild cam in it like a Crane 2032 (requires no tuning), some 3.73 gears in the rear axle and mild torque convertor in the trans and enjoy it that way. You can't see any of those mods and they just add more performance without changing stock appearance of the car
I was a completely stock guy until I started searching for seats. I finally broke down and had the seats re-upholstered. I used colors that matched the door panels and center console, and love how it turned out. The only other mod was installing a factory FM/CD player from a 2000 Grand Am, but still have the tape player just in case.
When it comes down to it, do whatever makes you happy and enjoy the process of restoring your car.
I love a stock car if its a higher optioned car. H.O, LB9 5spd, L98, TTA, etc.. My car will appear "stockish" when its done but it was just a base Formula L03 to begin with and that's not the look or powerplant I want. Its already got ground effects, crosslace rims, and later will probably get TA style tail lights. Am I trying to clone it? No, im making it what I want. I have upgraded rear end and tranny already and the next step is the engine. The L03 is a wonderful engine for reliability and gas mileage and such but eventually I will build a stronger carbed smallblock to replace it. Make a car what you want. If I had a nice L98, HO 5spd, or LB9 5spd car I would probably leave it stock. To each his own.
you can make a 305 have decent power if you want to make it have power. It costs a little bit more, but there is plenty of potential if you got to keep it 'stock'... at the same time, you can pull that motor, put a bag over it and keep it in the shed for when the time comes to sell, and in the meantime build decent 5.7 for it and it'll be like a new car again to you..
you can make a 305 have decent power if you want to make it have power. It costs a little bit more, but there is plenty of potential if you got to keep it 'stock'... at the same time, you can pull that motor, put a bag over it and keep it in the shed for when the time comes to sell, and in the meantime build decent 5.7 for it and it'll be like a new car again to you..
I guess it depends where you live. Here in New Jersey there are very few birds for sale. I always see Camaros, but normally in really bad shape. When I bought mine in 2002 I drove down to VA to get it. Everything here was either a rusted out s**t box or a lowered, tricked out s**t box. Not much different now.
Well, in that environment, anything you do stock or modified will stand out as long as it is clean and well executed.
I think some things should be upgraded. Brakes for example. Why would you want stock brakes with modern traffic?
My Z looks stock other than a slightly lower stance but underneath it is tastefully modernised. I kept the 305 and supercharged it. LS1 brakes are a worthwhile mod too.
Financial consideration is incongruent with cars in this category. There are a few exceptions such as a no-mile TTA or 1LE.
The reason that stock cars are generally worth more money is because they appeal to a wider swath of buyers. Taste for modified cars varies widely, and they are rarely well sorted enough for a knowledgeable buyer to shell out a decent buck. Not sure if this one has sold, and I have no knowledge of the car and or it's seller but it looks like it was done properly and it was far sale for a long time at a very reasonable price:
From somebody with the same dilemma, lol! First, if the car is straight, solid, rust free, and nice original paint, don't do anything exterior. Except maybe some 4th gen our aftermarket 17 inch wheels. If the interior is also nice, keep it that way. Rest of the car, as said before, depends what you want out of it. Do you want the weekend show queen that rarely gets driven? Do you want to drive every day the weather is nice but want something that goes and handles like a modern muscle car? You said about having something for your kids to enjoy. Maybe ask them what they would want out of it after your gone? I know, not really something us old guys wanna think about, but we gotta be realistic, lol! If I die tomorrow no freaking way would I leave my IROC to my kid! 10, 20 years down the road, maybe, lol! Anyway, if you're worried about numbers matching, pull the original drivetrain and put it in the corner of the garage. Then decide how fast you want your stock looking car to be, and spend accordingly
Makes you think. Although my V6 Sport Coupe was fair game for anything. Not much to appreciate there. But if you think about it, that same coupe, even as a low mileage cream puff, would probably sell for less than my modified version. Of course I'd never recoup my investment in parts and labour but it would, I think, sell for more.
EDIT: Yep. Same news article as posted by Ricks 88IROC.
Last edited by skinny z; Sep 25, 2016 at 09:02 PM.
From: Doghouse ······································ Car: 1989 Formula 350 Vert Engine: 350 L98 Transmission: 700R4 Axle/Gears: B&W 3.27
Car: 87 Formula T-Top, 87 Formula HT
Engine: 5.1L TPI, 5.0L TPI
Transmission: 700R4, M5
Axle/Gears: Sag 3.73, B&W 3.45
Re: Keep it stock or make it custom
There is a balance between a custom and a stock ride, and what the car started as. A 1991/1992 Firehawk or 89 TTA will depreciate the value fast if you modify it way beyond the original car. There are some things you can get away with, but not much, as those are considered true collectors cars.
An original L98 or LB9/MM5 would outsell a heavily customized 1LE in the same condition 90% of the time IMHO.
IMHO A Modified I4, V6 car, LG4/L03 would probably be an easier sale than a car with one of those engines as stock, again depending on what was done to it.
The Break even line is in the middle cars, Would a modified LB9/A4 car be more or less valuable than stock? I don't know...
Things that are well done are more likely to be acceptable than things that are just half-done, or things that are shoddy. Over the top customs are a thing of taste, and a really hard sell...
Modifying the engine, trans, axle to perform better, but the car remaining to be appearing stock is an easier sell than stuffing a blower through the hood, or removing the AC but leaving the brackets...
Adding Power windows, locks, or options that did not come on the car are more acceptable than adding **** carpet to the headliner.
I met someone who had a really clean, low mile early thirdgen and successfully sold it with mods like subframes and a short throw shifter. I think if you do it right, it should be negligible. Time capsule rare option cars will lose value, but in that case just stick to bolt-ons that you can reverse in a weekend... wheels, springs, shifter, etc. About all you could get away with on body mods in that case would be a window tint or maybe removing your side-molding.
Wonder how many clown's can ride in this to the circus!
