Ok guys, i have my suspension system narrowed down to two catagories, either Hotchkis or Edelbrock.

Here is some background info to work with: 1984 Z28, Carbed L69, Dual Snorkel, Steel Hood, A/C, 16in Iroc Rims.

Hotchkis: Sport Coils, Sport Sway Bars, Heavy Duty Tie Rod Sleeves, Strut Tower Brace, Sub Frame Connectors, Rear Trailing arms, Adjustable Pan hard Rod and hardware.

Edelbrock: Eibach Sportline Springs, Panhard bar, trailing arms, torque arm, strut tower brace, Tokico Performance Shocks.

There are problems with both packagest though

Hotchkis: comes with a two point strut tower brace that will only fit TPI cars, which i cannot use (but i can sell) and it also does not come with shocks and struts, which i dont mind, but i dont know what shocks and struts to get that will accomidate the lower stance. It also does not have a Tourque arm.

Edelbrock: Lacks sub-frame connectors, sway bars, tie rod sleves.

Now when I redo my suspension, I am going to have all of the components, including the ones that both packages lack. So my real question is, should i start with the Hotchkis packages, and fill in the missing parts with edelbrock, or should I start with the edelbrock package and fill in the missing parts with hotchkis?

Money really isnt a problem because my car is off the road for the next 6 months so i can save up some money. and every dime i make i pour into this car, so i dont care how much it costs, as long as it works.

 

Overall, the very best quality and design of F-body supension products is Spohn componants. Hotchkis SFC's for one hang down too low and are bolt-on design which the bolt holes elongate and weaken. I would not buy Hotchkis, they are the typical marketed low cost-high production packaged goods. I had a friend that owned a performance shop give me a set of Hotchkis LCA's free (new in box unopened)and I gave them away myself and bought Spohn's adj LCA's.

 

I will look into Spohn, but hotchkis is still better than Stock right?
and isnt the stock system bolt on also? i dont have a welder so i am looking for something i can just bolt on.

 

For the most part, they are stronger, yet heavier also. Good and bad.

As for SFC's, My honest opinion is I would rather not run SFC's than use just Bolt-on sfc's. They will loosensnd basically render themselves useless and just dead weight, and cause ground clearence headaches. I would go welded or not even bother. you have to trust me on this , I know what I am speaking about.

 

so what company makes a weldable sub frame connector, and if i do decide to go with the welded one, is it bad to mix and match 3-4 different brands?

i only want sub frame connectors because a chevy high performance magazeen re-did their suspension with everything except sfc's and they said that all of the previous suspension flex was being fed into the chasis, at the point where the two frames meet. They reccomended sfc's.

 

For many members, SFC's are considered more a necessity than a mod. Check my sig for suspension mods.

JamesC

 

ok, i took a look at spohn, since im not that experienced, can you guys build me a suspension system, encorperating all aspects, and using all the brands: edelbrock, hotchkis, spohn?

 

you can check out my sig cause last summer i did a whole suspension rebuild and i'm very happy with it. Also you should check out BMR (bmrfabrication.com) them and spohn i think make the best suspension parts for our cars. I have worked with both and were very nice and had very good service. If you have anyother questoin feel free to ask or pm me.

 

Between those two choices, I'd pick hotchkis. They seem to be constructed stronger.

 

Don't go with a "complete suspension package" from either of those vendors. I know it seems easier, but they are never really "complete" and you can get better quality parts, cheaper, if you do a little reaserch, know what your buying, and piece it togehter yourself.

 

i know what your saying, and i would rather do it that way, but im afraid that the parts wont work in harmony with eachother the way a package would, also how do you figure out what shocks/struts will go with lowered springs??????

 

Umm...

Work in harmony???



I'm still dealing with stuff, so hopefully soon I'll have bilsteins, KYBs shocks and struts are ok, but I'd rather have gone with super cheapo shocks and struts earlier and then really good ones like bilsteins later, these are just a waste of money.

 

harmony=work together without problems

 

heres the deal.

nothing in that list works with anything else in any special way.

they werent even designed to work as a "package".. they came out individually. this "package" is a result of marketing, nothing else.

to avoid a "beginners" mistake (no offence ment), you really need to look more into your options...

niether of thoes companys make the best ANYTHING for your car... but they are pricy.



oh, and like vsixtoy said... weld-ins SFCs or none.... id go farther and say, weld in perimeter style, or none.

 

ok, knowing that getting a package is not the best way to go, what company makes the best of each component. Bassically, what company would you buy each part from, ex. Strut tower brace, trailling arms, panhand bar, SFC's etc.

 

stb = edelbrock (depending on engine)
LCAs = spohn
panhard = spohn
sfc's = spohn

 

ok, what can i say, im sold. Im not gonig to be getting a pacakge any more, but by buying each component seperate, im not going to have enough money to buy everything all at once, so what are the most important components to upgrade performance, in order of most important to least. Also what are the BEST springs/shocks/struts? i am thinking about going with the Eibach Sportlines and the Tokico performance shocks. Any suggestions?

also whats better pro-kit or sportlines?

 

ok im confused here, edelbrock had some simple bolt on control arms and so did hotchkis, now spohn has some confusing stuff. they have 4 choices for the lower control arms:
tubular with poly bushings
adjustable with poly bushings
adjustable with spherical/ poly combo
adjustable with spherical rod eneded
I dont know what these things are and why i would need them, can you guys pleas help me out with wich one to choose. also they have lower control arm relocation brackets... do i need these, how would i know if i need them... why dont i need them with the edelbrock.

they also have 4 choices for the panhard bars:
tubular with poly bushings
adjustable with poly bushings
adjustable with spherical/ poly combo
adjustable with spherical rod eneded

Now i dont know why i would need the more expensive ones, but im guessing i need an adjustable panhard bar because i am lowering the car, but do i also need adjustable lower control arms for the same reason?

Thanks alot guys, you are making this alot easier.

 

im assuming this is a street driven car.
you dont need adjustible LCAs... you want the non adjustible poly ones.

for the panhard, get poly ends, but adjustible... the panhard rod length is what centers the rear, and when you lower the car, you usually have to re-center the rear.

for street car springs/shocks, Eibach Sportlines and the Tokico performance shocks are a great combo.

same springs with bilston bilstein shock/struts is good too.


before you go buying anything, you may want to do a few searches on brands, fitment, ect.. keep in mind the rear lower control arms are the same on 4thgens and G bodys (grand nationals, monte carlos, ect).. the TQ arm is the same as 4thgens... it widens your search somewhat.

 

Read around the board and search a lot. Figure out what everything is and what it means (type of material, bushings, rod ends, etc). Don't buy until you're perfectly sure that's what you want and need.

Be happy

 

Sportlines?

If you rarely go over speed bumps or rough roads.

Prokit covers that well in my car, only slightly uncomfortable, I don't want to imagine what sportlines would be like in some situations.

KYB sucks, I'll vouch firsthand for that, either buy cheapo kragen shocks and struts or go all out the first time with good. I've been hold bilsteins by people that have had firsthand but haven't read much about the tokico ones.

 

bah, the prokit would raise my car compared to the stock sagged spring height.. lol


btw, if you think the sportlines are low, you dont want to know how low my car is right now. im running 700# cut front springs, i forget the backs but its stiff too.. the roads around here arnt too bad though, and its flat around here. no hills.

 

would Tokico and blitsens both be good shocks and struts to go with either the sport line or prokit.

and how do you know what shocks and struts will match a spring?
if i decided to go with tokico, would the same tokico shocks that would work with the prokit work with the sport lines, or does it make a difference that the sportlines are lower?

also im drivin in staten island NY, the roads are crap, potholes everywhere, its a rough ride as is, not that it bothers me, i dont mind feeling the road, i just dont want problems with bottoming out, so what do u think sportlines or prokit?

 

as far as the lower control arms are concerned, do i need a relocation bracket?
and the chrome moly upgrade is 40 more dollars, is it necessary? what does it do.
and yes this is a daily driver.

For the torque arm, driveshaft loops are offered, what do they do, are they nessesary?

Sway bars: Aftermarket rear sway bar installation kit is $75.00, do you need this to install and aftermarket swaybar, or to install an afftermarket sway bar to an aftermarked rear end? Basically, do you need this part?
there are two different types of rear swaybars, 1" solid and 7/8" solid, whats the difference, will both fit the car? is it just a matter of thickness?

Tie rod adjusters: what do they do, when and why do you need them.

 

You do not need LCARBS (relocation brackets) but the more you lower the car, the more they become neccesary to keep correct geometry, they can even be used on a non lowered car for better traction. As far as the chome moly parts go don't use them for the street. basically a racing only thing. They are used for weight savings because the material is stonger so the wall thichness is thinner, hence lighter. (read: more expensive) But chassis parts made from this material have been known to crack due to the stresses encountered in daily street driving.

 

the prokit reduces fender gap and makes the car look good.
the sportlines go a step farther and make it low.

the choice between thoes two is a combo of personal prefrance, and the streets you drive on.

the strut/shock choice would be the same regardless of what Eibach kit you choose. what Eibach kit you want is upto you, so just do some more research on here and elsewhere.. look at pics, ect.

really, you only have 3 choices of quality struts for these cars:

bilstein
tokico
Koni

if you had a extreme race car, or ultra stiff springs, all of them would also revalve the struts for your car. but since you're using a common lowering spring on a street car, you dont need anything special. out of the box is great. if you're really worried about ideal street handling, you need better tires before you start worrying about custom shock dampening


yes, after lowering the car, relocation brackets will be needed. BMR makes a bolt on set. spohns are weld on. both work, and after welding, cost about the same.


chrome moly is a diffrent type of metal... its stronger, so you can use less of it and make a lighter part.. but its also more brittle, so instead of bending in a accident (like a sudden high speed pothole) it snaps. it has some give, but overall, i tend to shy away from chrome moly for suspension parts on the street.
it wont give any meaninful performance advantage to your car, not worth the extra cost...

 

for struts that true but bilstein has two shocks. HD: which is for stock ride hight to slightly lower, like the Pro-Kit. The other is Sports: which are for lower cars, like Sportlines.

 

If I were going to build a V8 car to handle- Here is my list in the order and exact parts I would be buying from a starting point. (Note: Yhis is based on about a 3400lb car with an iron V8 block and aluminum heads.

1) I would strip everything off the nose of the car that is creeature comforts- otherwise I would not try and build a V8 3rd gen for handling. No a/c, Cruise control, battery goes in the back seat, etc etc.

2) Spohn adj steering brace. First and foremost- protect that frame ( I bought a GW for my car and had to tack weld it in place, wish I had opted for the Spohn preload adj)

3)Koni Yellows.

4)billet strut mounts

5)Spohn perimeter style SFC's

6)Spohn chromemoly combo mount adj LCA's

7)Panhard rod adjastable. (With a V8 I would possitively take the time to lower the panhard rod mount on the axle side to lower the rear roll center.

8) 34mm solid front swaybar/ 21mm rear bar

9)Strut tower brace- most likely homemade with tubular supports leading back to the firewall. The extra weight of a V8 causes enough flex on the strut towers that this needs extra support. My 3pt edelbrock is fine for the lighter V6.

10) Torque arm about 6" shorter than stock.

11) Relocation brackets- but keep the LCA's mounted in the stock position for now.

12) Now buy the coils and set the car lower- I have the adjustments to now do it properly. 900lb minimum linear front coils (I'd probably go to 950 its a crap shoot)/ 225lb max progressive rear

Basically, there is alot of stuff that I would do entirely different and the above 12 are examples of a decent starting point for someone wanting to build a good handling car. There are actually things I would do custom that would be different than the above, and also some stuff I can't talk about yet that I would want especially if I had a heavier nosed V8 car including the manditory fiberglass non-cowl hood to lighten the front. The above shows what I would do if I wanted over the counter parts- some of them still not being over the counter that I would buy and have altered.

 

for the TQ arm, its kind of a waste of money on a street car... id just keep the stocker... esp since the aftermarket one will add about 15lbs to the weight of the suspension.

a driveshaft loop is a loop of metal that goes around teh driveshaft. in the case of u joint failure, the front of the driveshaft coult drop down, dig into the ground, and polevault the car... the loop catches the driveshaft.... its basicly a drag race saftey device. not needed, but nice.

you dont need aftermarket swaybars... the big stock option WS6 bars are very good... just see if you can find a set of them. the aftermarket bars are even larger and are overly stiff.. you CAN go overkill on swaybars.. lol.


tie rod adjusters are what hold the steering linkage between the wheels at a specific length. by turning them, it changes the length of the bar, toeing your wheels in or out.
the stock tie rod adjusters are stamped/crimped steel... aftermarket ones are just stronger... not needed unless you're rebuilding the front end though.. lol.



btw, stop editing your posts for more questions, you make it harder to reply to that way.

 

actually, i would only get the sports.. lol.

 

 

Why?

 

agreed

 

because they come with the prefered stiffer valving already, and you're still well within the travel.

the HDs are still upgrade shocks.. but like factory upgrade shocks.. the sports are one step above that.


besides, i would want my car lower then the prokit. most 3rdgens that are on stock springs are already lower then the prokit.... just from spring sag.

 

but lets say for example, i have extremely saggy stock springs, and i install the pro kit that in turn actually highers the height. would i have better performance/compfort with the prokit or the saggy stockers?

 

 

quote:
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Originally posted by 91ForumlaSS

Why chrome moly?

Why not the 36/24 WS6 bars?

["9)Strut tower brace- most likely homemade with tubular supports leading back to the firewall. The extra weight of a V8 causes enough flex on the strut towers that this needs extra support. My 3pt edelbrock is fine for the lighter V6." ]

Doesn't the 3pt Edelbrock STB tie into the firewall already? [/B


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Chromemoly-The light the ratio of sprung weight (Chassis) to unsprung weight (most of your suspension, for the most part this gets a little technical) will make the car ride and handle better if the suspension componants are lighter.


Bars- Bigger is not better. You put that 24mm bar on the *** end of a built V8 car and the inside rear will lift and loosen the rearend traction.

Strut tower brace- I think if you re-read what I wrote, I explained it already. The bolted 3pt brace will elogate the holes and render it useless unless it is welded to the fenderwell.

If you want to really really start to learn about suspensions you will re-read what I wrote and really take everything to heart exactly as I wrote it. Those recommendations are not to be some used and some not- its a whole package that is married together and needs to be set to the correct adjustment provisions also.

If you can't understand it or just also don't care to take the time, then I would then just encourage a person like yourself to just simply buy a "packaged suspension kit" and have someone bolt it on for you. It will be better than stock, but for the money you spend and the little gains you will get, just understand that it wouldn't hold a candle to a care that is professionally setup by someone who knows what they are doing.

 

trust me, i care where my money is being spend, but now seeing the new prices, and learning that suspension is a much deeper subject then i thought before, i am forced to buy only a few components at a time, thats why i wanted to know the components in order from most to least important.

 

prokit... the stiffer the springs are, the less weight transfer you get.

on a car ment for handling, when you slam on the brakes, you dont want all the weight forward on the front wheels... that would make the rear wheels do almost nothing, and overwork the fronts.... in a corner, the weight would transfer to the outside two wheels, leaning the car.

stiffer springs reduce the tendency for the weight to transfer.. and the prokit springs are stiffer then the stockers... and much stiffer then sagging worn stockers. while ride height is important, its not the only factor.

the most important things you can do to start with are the tires and shocks.
of course, while the shocks are off, thats a good time to change the springs.

after that, the SFCs and other misc bracing goes on... this puts you about where most guys stop.

then, with a solid foundation, you can move on to the tweeking things that you wouldnt have felt before.. like billet strut mounts, bigger swaybars, ect...


there are several methods to the madness... the key is to learn what each part does, and how it works before buying anything... once you know how it works, the decisions come easier, you can make a informed opinion based on what you're looking for, and have your car project your way.

 

the shorter shock has stiffer valving at teh top of the stroke to reduce bottoming... i only know this from driving diffrent cars almost back to back... ive never looked at any tech docs...

and yes, the stock ride height is 4x4ish.. remember, these cars are from the 80s. back then, no one looked at a cars wheel gap.