what r you guys doing to eliminate the torque arm? i am putting an 8.8 under my car and would llike to still use the factory mounting points for lower control arms but would love to get rid of the t/a if possible.
btw its an 85 camaro...

 

The ONLY solution not involving the torque arm, is to back-half the car.

Not sure why you'd "love to get rid of" it? There's nothing wrong with it. It's a better design in fact than most 4-link setups (at least, stock ones).

 

 

I've never heard of an 8.8, what's that?

 

Its a ford rear end found in many vehicles like exploder and mustangs.
8.8" refers to the diameter of the ring gear.

 

just thought it would be less work to fab a new torque arm mount on the 8.8..If there were another way that works as well as the torque arm without the hassle of the mount fabrication i would be interested.

 

the only other thing was South Side Machine lift bars

this set up got rid of the Torque arm.

The set sold for under $360

came with every thing from. SFC /Drive shaft loop / and lift bars
the lift bars (think of a lader bar in sorts) has the rear end wanted to rotate on take off. would plant the rearend. and the car would run strait.

this compny is now out of Biss from miss mangmt.

there parts are still on cars. installed right. and run with all the parts.
you would never have anything Brake.

but a few Bone heads would get rid of the LCA and would brake bad welds. and blame it on the lift bars... they never took a look at what not to do! printed in black and white...
forgive the 9 years of dust and lite rust.. more work.Cars bin sitting

note LCA still in place..has they should be!

this is the 2nd set of lift bars on this 92 Z28. note welds are just holding it in place so car could be moved.. this is just before rod let go. and car was locked up in box.. (for 9 years)
this is the 9" installed to replace the always braking 7.5 ring gears and pinon.


could you take and reset the pinon angl at a whim..No it's welded and set.
Nothing more to Mess with.. drive it on the street yes. ride is Fine.
Could you make it adjsbl?..with rod ends on the lift bars yes..But i have not needed it yet.

with this set up and install the car will set on 3 jack stands. AND THE DOORS STILL CLOSE w A finger tip push.. Sweet.

NOTE: see what it tells you about your LCA's


side note:
save up and get a 9" and never look back!

 

Problem with those, like any other "ladder bar" type of system (which is what those are, except they're solid instead of a lattice of tubing), is that they AUTOMATICALLY put the whole system into a bind when going over a bump on one side or going around a corner. Highly effective for drag racing, as it's basically impossible for the car NOT to stay level and go straight; highly impractical for significant street driving, as it's ALL BUT IMPOSSIBLE for something NOT to eventually break due to the enormous loads they place on all the welds, bolts, attaching points, etc.

 

I agree, a friend of mine put one of these SSM setups in the 87 GTA years ago, the car was not a drag car, just street car, in the end he was not very happy with his decision to do this setup. I drove in the car and it was a very rough ride for New York City streets, no articulation of the rear axle make this unideal for a street car but is great for a drag car.

 

Although the SSM bars will eliminate the torque arm, the design is very poor even as a ladder bar simulation.

There is no "easy" way to eliminate the torque arm. If there was, there would be a lot of threads about diff swaps using junkyard diffs.

When I installed my first 9", I eliminated the torque arm by installing a ladder bar system. Mine is a track only car so I wasn't concerned about daily driving. Even so, installing ladder bars required floor modification to clear the ladder bars.

 

I have had lift bars on my car for over 20 years. and 9 years of it sitting.
but 11 years of driving. on city streets. and drag racing.

in the 11 years of drag racing it's never broke anything but pinon gears
on the weak sickly 7.5 that was in it.

i dont drive like the Dukes of Hazzard on the streets.
draging my front airdam coming into parking lots.and driving off curbs.

so i cant say that it's not stiff.. But I Can say I Drive my car like its at a car show. coming and going out of parking lots and it drives Fine.

do they work...Yes!....Yes they do 100%

ladder bar simulation? They do the same thing.Without Cutting / floor modification
and will be in my car .till back half time. cuzz they do the Job!

and got rid TQ Arm.
side note: tranny swaps are alot better with out the TQ Arm.

 

Problem with street driving is pretty straightforward:

Imagine that you go over a bump, with one rear wheel; while the other one stays at the same level. Picture, going into a driveway slightly sideways or the like.

OK, one wheel deflects the suspension more than the other (or at least, tries to).

OK, should be pretty obvious that with one wheel deflected differently from the other, the lower control arms will have to be at different angles. Right? Not too hard to figure out.

OK, now imagine what HAS TO HAPPEN in a "ladder bar" system in order to allow the 2 "control arms" (which are now ladder bars) to be at different angles. Got it?

OK, HOW IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN? Answer is, IT CAN'T, because they're BOTH WELDED TO THE REAR END HOUSING. Only ways it can happen is, break the welds, break the tubes out of the pumpkin (a VERY COMMON failure in ladder bar cars in general for some reason or other), bend the bars, or tweeek the chassis where the bars mount to it.

Eh?

Just simple geometry.

The argument "I've been doing it and it hasn't broke yet" doesn't translate well to "you should do it too". I'm reminded of, I actually personally knew someone once who was skydiving one day, and his parachute failed; and he survived. Applying your argument to skydiving, you would get on a skydiving message board and tell everybody that parachutes are unnecessary, because look, d00d over here skydove without one and lived to tell. Eh?

BAD ADVICE. Now if the car is a 100% strip car, that's one thing; but if it's going on the street, BAD BAD BAD BAD.

 

Dont hate: it works for me.. and i like it..
this is not a car you drive to work every day. this set up has been on my car for 20 years. and 20 years ago this car was running 10.50's with this set up. and will be going faster now with this set up.

did it replace the TQ Arm..Yes...yes it did. has it broke in over 20 years..NO (i take care to check)
Cuzz i dont drive it. like i stole it. I drive it nice and neat.. like a mid 10 sec car is driven.
And is it in. with Ladder bar set ups.. Yes...yes it is


"The argument "I've been doing it and it hasn't broke yet" doesn't translate well"

do cars blow up engs when they race?

I think so...this translates verry well..
will it brake..will anything brake? how long till it brakes?

has not broke in 20 years... maby 20 more..till then ill keep my eye on it. like my engs.

(note jet aircraft somtimes just fall apart..Cuzz they Get old to) but we keep an eye on them to keep them flying....just so ya know. this translates into any car will eat parts over time. be it 1 year or 20 years.. and even 11 years on a drag race rear end set up that checks out for another 1 to 11 more years is alot to get out of a hotrod! IS IT NOT?

Works for me for the last 20 years and maby even another few more...

and by the way ofakingdom. i never told him he should do what im doing..
but posted about the a compny that did away with the TQ Arm...

 

interesting to see pics of those, ive never seen them before. but man that looks like it would put the suspension in a bind since the lca's are shorter than the ssm bars.... if you put the car on jackstands and unhook the shocks, does the rearend come down like it should, or will it stop itself?

my thoughts are to stick with the torque arm though. there are guys running 1.teen 60's on bolt in torque arm setups.

 

the LCAs Let the housing rotate. they still pivet on ea end.
ya got to think sorta like in 3D. it comes down.. 2/3 of the way then before. but then im not jumping the car from ramp to ramp.. and the movment up will hit bumpstops.. if you drive like the Dukes... strip car on the street.. i dont know about most of you.. but i always sorta cruze my car on the street.. no dirt roads no wet streets. no rain. fri sat night pull in shoot the bull hang.
you know the rest...lol

but thats me..

By the way
ladder bars on a 70 chvel do the same thing.

Had one.. this is how i know.
miss that car

 

This is the best solution for the ssm bars:

before



after

 

twin..you
should just drop that rear end in the trash.

unless it's going into a golf cart

 

It's not that the SSM bars work or not. They do work however the design is bad. The bracing from the top of the axle tube down to the bar is very limited unlike a ladder bar which has upper and lower tubing running to the forward mount point. Although they'll bind like a ladder bar when driven on the street, they're not designed for full race applications.

 

By the time you spent welding, cutting, and whatnot to get of the torque arm to put the 8.8 rear in, you could buy a Strange S60 bolt it in and go. Still have the torque arm, never going to break the S60, and have a more efficient rear than a 9".

Remeber time vs. money.

 

they did not meet NHRA Super stock specs (stock) 1990's
but did show up on alot of Race cars. alot of winning cars.. not all.
look at lake woods lader bars..
or anybodys lader bars..they all are on the housing tubes.welded/bolted
has room was close the bars moved down. the ladder bar is the same tool made by lots of compys. some not in biss anymore.

AND THAT TUBING running from back to tip on a lader bar. IS THERE to make it stiff
it's calld a truss (i know you know this) just wanted to point it out. dose the same thing has a hevy solid bar.. (like ssm)

alot of trains use it when crossing a river (giggl)


But did it replace the TQ arm?.. Yes it did! ...LOL

and when i back Half My Car.. it will get a 4 link.. and be driven on the street
(A littel place in Fife WA Is doing that Job)

 

if they boxed these areas in and made them sliders, they would work a little more "correctly". it would get rid of the binding between the ladder bars and the control arms. but it would go back to functioning like a torque arm.

these ssm bars are ladder bars. ladder bars dont need lca's, so this design is kinda odd. if the lca's were the same length as the ssm bars, there wouldnt be any binding either.

 

I'm not "hating"; I'm TELLING THE TRUTH. That's all.

"It works for me" is like the guy with the parachute that didn't open, telling everybody that since it "worked for him", it's good for EVERYBODY. I think it's not too hard to see the ... ,,, .... FLAW .... in that lack of reasoning.

If it works for you, that's fine, I'm not telling you it's not working for you or that you have to change YOUR car. What I AM saying is, it's NOT GOOD ADVICE to give to SOMEBODY ELSE. There's a HUGE difference between "hey yall hold my beer and watch this" and living to tell about it, and it being "a good idea".

 

WOW: you need to sit back and read the post.
I Never Gave any ADVICE..
(UNLIKE YOUR SELF) the truth..only has you know it (IMO)

and stop watching so much TV

 

when used on a drag strip there is no binding.

works the same has Ladder bars on a

1970/71 chevel
74 gto
and a few others. (they to leav CAs on also)WHEN using ladder bars IMO

sorta like runnng ET Streets on the street
running Spools on the street
and driving cars without smog parts on the street
you can do what you Like

He asked about torque arm elimination.

and i Posted...

LETS BASH SOMTHING ELS .. like how AFR 230 heads would be to much for a small block on the street with EFI...LOL

I love this site..and all the Cooks.. Just need more dish washers

 

Why over complicate with a 2nd set of ladder bars. Just weld some good LCA's to the axle. They still piviot at the frame side, but stop the axle from rotating.
And yes it's been done.

 

IC would be in the wroooooooong spot if you did that.
in the ssm bars setup the lca's arent doing anything. i dont see why you'd need to leave them on there?

 

got a pic? all the ladderbar setups i've ever seen had 2 bars with none of the factory control arms.

 

The 9" takes LESS power than the Dana 60 does. GM High tech did a rwhp dyno test on a stock f-body rear, 12bolt, ford 9" and the S60.
The S60 was 13-16rwhp down over the 9" and the 9" was like 3-4rwhp down from the stocker.. Its been awhile since I read it..

My 2cents is, unless its a 100% drag car stick w a 9" or 12bolt.

 

that 60 is a HEAVY axle too, compared to how light you can build a 9" these days.

 

I thought about eliminating my TQ arm when swapping over to a 12 bolt. I figured out that the best solution was to make a mount for the rear end rather than fab up custom ladder bars. If you search on ls1tech, there are a few threads where they fabbed up modified four links using the LCA's and most really dont like it how it handled on the street, unless its a drag car. If you are concerned with swapping tranny's in the future, get a aftermarket TQ arm with the relocated bracket on the crossmember. I have a umi and its a good piece. The very back piece that would bolt to the rear end separated from the arm and that is what I actually used as sort of a template in a way to fab up my mount on the 12 bolt to make sure is was very strong and also removable if needed. I hopes that helps you put a little.

 

to really get rid of the torque arm the ways i know how to do it are swapping some form of a 4 link. The torque arm isn't too bad though it just needs improving, lots of circle track cars use a "pull bar" that does a somewhat similar job of a torque arm.

 

30 comments and not one mentions the Watts link setup?

 

Thats a GREAT setup but overkill for your average street car.. and of course dosent have anything to do with deleting the TQ arm.

 

And, doesn't do away with the torque arm; only the Panhard bar.

 

Watts links don't replace the TQA, only the PHB. If you're wanting more performance out of your TQA, get a De-Coupled TQA from Unbalanced Engineering.

 

Crap your right. I totally forgot about that article. I sorta remember reading about the pinion placement in the Dana 60 is better than the 9"..

 

I too have had the SSM set up on my 83 Camaro for twenty or so years and have had no problems so far. Now I was wondering if anyone has had a drip in the front of their steering gear, mine is a saganaw 605. Do I have to take it out of the car to fix it, still steering great but I hate the drip.

 

no, but it will be a million times easier to rebuild off the car.

 

going with the oldest bolt on kit for the 70's chevy A bodys
http://static.summitracing.com/globa.../lak-20460.pdf

some guys just dont install them right is all.

if you look at the link. you will see to remove the CA bolts only if they face the wrong way.
Must Face inward.. So. if the bolts are not Removed. then the CA are still on the Car.
cuzz you are not getting the CA off with out removing the Bolts..
(that and it dont say anything about removing them)

and it also talks about welding this bolt on Kit.. onto the Car for Hevy duty use.
(this kit is 30+ years old also) nothing New.. hope it helps

always Loved the Looks of them on a Car..just screamed!! Hotrod!

 

Just figured that if your going to the effort to remove the stock well functioning "for a street car" TA you would at least replace it with something that works better. It always kills me to see people engineer in systems that are no better for the application than the stock setup.

Most of the time the parts used induce snap over steer by loading up the arms or bushings and don't allow for much, if any rear axle articulation. For example people who use poly-poly LCA's on a supposed G-machine. "Herb Adams Basic Chassis Engineering" is a good read and should be a prerequisite before buying a single chassis part or recommending them for that matter. I don't know why but I was thinking the Watts eliminated the TA. Apparently I need to go back and reread the book myself

I'll add another vote for keeping the TA and adding a mount. Your going to have to weld and fabricate somewhere with the 8.8 regardless of what you do. If it where me I would just choke up and buy a 9" if your looking to upgrade with no fab.

Is this going to be primarily a drag car or a driver? How much torque are you slingin around? Don't launch it hard, drive like a tool, or wheel hop and a stock 10 bolt or BW would save a lot of headache. Especially if you have an older 28 spline unit. If so then by the time you upgrade it to 31 splines. The 12 bolts have those stock BTW, and with a slightly larger ring gear. Then you might even come out with more invested than it's worth with a weaker TA mounting to boot. And all for what? To save 15- 20lb's on a rear that's inferior to a 12 bolt?

 

Threads like this are pretty frustrating... a lot of opinion and sporadic facts.

- The stock TA setup is probably one of the more flexible live axle rear suspension setups, with very little work they can be made to perform exceptionally, for handling, dragstrip and street use. Honestly, I don't see much reason to ditch it unless you're building an all out race car and trying to save money.
- Ladder bars can work for straight line use and can work very well. They are hard on parts
- the ssm setup is just a ladder bar setup, it just looks a little different to accommodate the existing floor pan. the heavier bottom bar acts like the lighter truss setup on a traditional ladder bar, it should be very nearly as strong as a traditional design, if not more so. The only disadvantage to a traditional ladder bar is the extra weight, but that should have only a marginal affect on a ladder bar setup. The places where I've seen these things break were not design issues, but install issues. The fact is that most ladder bar setups, if they fail, fail where they attach to the axle, and that is mostly from a crappy install.
- the ssm setups keep the LCA's not because they do something when installed, but as a cya in case of a crappy install, they keep the axle in the car if one of the bar mounts breaks, nothing more, nothing less. And yes, if the control arms and the ssm bars had solid pivot points they would bind, but with soft rubber bushings there should be enough play to get more travel than you have between the bump stops and the shocks fully extended.
- finally I hate this streetable argument. What's streetable? I used to daily drive a car with 900/250# springs that sat almost 3" lower than stock (that car also had dual high flow cats, headers and straight pipes). By daily drive I mean rain, shine, snow... (snow kind of sucked, it basically plowed the streets) and I was fine with it. I DD a formula with a spool in it for years also, didn't have any issues and it didn't bother me. I had to adjust for it in a few ways (mostly in parking lots, if you wanted to get into a tight space at low speeds you had 2 choices, goose the throttle to make it spin a little or back in, otherwise it would try to push straight). That car and mulptiple others lived on drag tires, all the time, I didn't own street radials for them. Would I suggest either to someone that bitches about their car rattling, no. Was it streetable for me, sure, no problem. My wife didn't even complain that much about them, she complains more about my 4th gen with nothing weird than she does about either of those.

 

Oh crap!! really!?!?!? guess I'll sell my 245s and put some 180s on my motor so I can drive it 2 the PO box!!!

I better get some dubl humps instead of 180s and some 1 1/4 true duals (4 backpressure) and a 3/4 race cam with a 650 holley dub pumper!
(Of course I'm being silly here)

 

you do understand it was a Joke..Right?

after all my street eng is 12.5 1 with the 65cc 220's
and i went with a 75cc 220 heads and 11.5 1 to add 6 lbs of boost on the street
(110 oct unleded fuel..yes i know) after all it's only Money. and 55 gal drums of it are cheap now!
but i did keep my cam under 254 @50 and under 700 lift cuzz it's a street car

and guys still use cast iron heads..wow?

 

No kidding. I'm as guilty of your comment about opinions & sporadic facts as the next guy, but people really need to know what it is they are interested in before asking if this or that bolt on is really what it is they are looking for.

Too often I see people asking "How can I make my car perform better for X dollars", "Best handling car I can build" (this is an awfully open ended question that nearly everyone who asks it doesn't realize), "What rear end mods do I need for X,Y,Z application" (again, another very open question), or other very general questions that can draw answers as varied as the people who frequent this forum.

I've been here long enough and asked enough questions in addition to my several years on Purdue's FSAE team that I'm beginning to understand WHY the general answer is SEARCH FIRST to threads like this. Often times, most of my questions have been answered by doing a SEARCH. I learned a ton that way.

Once you actually know what it is you want to do with your car, its makes it far easier to find answers to your question since not everyone will be able to answer a question that is seeking a specific answer.

 

the main reason for me going with the 8.8 is because i have a built one with good prts in it and i have a couple sets of gears if i want to change them at all . my car will be street/strip car but hopefully more on the street side. i think i will just spend some time and fab a mount so i can use the umi torque arm i had my mind set on before . it just looks like it might make things easier in the long run and keep cost for me down a bit as well as just being a proven system.

 

sell the 8.8 and buy a 9".

 

A good deal on something that isn't easy to swap over to your car isn't such a good deal. Something that's designed to fit properly, even if it costs a little more is a better deal.

Sell the 8.8 to someone with a mustang and use the money to buy a direct bolt in aftermarket diff.

 

just to jump in nascar has done it for years on road courses with no problem and great handling and they got it from pickup trucks. I always wanted to do it but with adjustments on crossmember and truck arms. There is just as much movement as with the stock suspension but with better traction. Its not needed just different and its cheaper with same benefits as aftermarket. Any ways looks cool

 

The NASCAR trailing arm suspension doesn't work too well under the third gens very low floor. Again, lots more fabrication work.

 

agree to much work for something cool. I went with relocation kit works great and can do dual exhaust with ground clearance. It would work with time and someone with experience. Would be cheaper to just get someone to weld up the brackets for factory hardware. Best to get different rearend