Well, after nearly 2 months of fiddling around with it, we finally got the new 350 into her home. It took us nearly 2 1/2 hours to get her in the bay because we couldn't figure out why we couldn't get her to move where she needed to be, until we took a closer look under the car and found that the torque arm had been wedged into tranny bracket. . . and I mean wedged!

So we popped out the torque arm from the rear diff and finally got her in there. . .

Anyways, enough blabbing, here are the pics . . if I do it correctly.

 

and another

 

and last one. . .

 

Looking good

 

Looks really good. You had the intake bored to 2" if I recall correctly right? You may be ready for a bigger cam once you get a good hand on tuing.

 

Yeah, that probably won't happen. If I find myself lacking in the thrill department, the only other things I would consider would be 1.6 RR's or different gears. This swap is killin' me (stress-wise). . . and after this it goes to the paint shop, then the brakes and wheels go on, and some front suspension stuff; then it's just little things after that.

Oh, and yeah. . .I did have my intake bored out to 2".

 

Lt1 cam in a 350
You need a bigger cam . Something with specs similar to the Lt4 hot cam. That way you can be over 400hp with TBI. Only problem is getting big enough injectors. Something like 90# BBC injectors running at 26psi = 130# injectors .
So what's the plan on the fuel injection?

 

No, that LT-1 cam in my sig was for my LO3, but I'm selling that to somebody. The cam is a Crane cam

204/214

.429/.452

116

It's mild, but it should be easily tunable. This is also a daily driver as well, so I have that to consider. They're the blue/red injectors, which if my memory serves me correctly, 85#'ers. I've also got the 190 Walbro pump, and a 2" bored out throttle body and intake manifold as Shifty previously mentioned.

I'm shooting for around 360 HP and 425+ lb/ft

 

i hate to be really blunt. but

not going ot happen with that cam.

 

No problem, but Rich92RS350 ran this exact same motor, except he had the standard heads on them, and I opted for the Trick Flow heads. . . anyways, he had it dynoed prior to putting it in the car, and he got 319 HP and 399 lb/ft out of it.

Now I've got a 2" TBI unit w/ 85# injectors and a 2" intake manifold, on top of the heads, none of which he had. . . and like I said, even if I don't reach my goal with my current set-up, I'll just thrown some 1.6 RR's on them making my cam specs:

204/214

.458/.482

116

Even if I don't reach my goal, I'll be damn close.

P.S. - all of my computer dyno programs, have put me in the area as well (ie Desktop Dyno and Engine Analyzer)

 

I just find it hard to beleive it will make that much power with that cam.

 

I would say that if you're getting expensive Trick Flow heads, why are you putting such a small cam in? Those heads can flow a lot, put a cam in that can also flow a lot. I think you'll want more cam once you get it running.

 

Keep in mind that he wants to TUNE the thing. With a big cam it becomes harder to tune. Besides id be VERY happy with 400 ft lbs with a TBI!

 

It won't be hard to tune. Too many people are intimidated by tuning and haven't even looked into what needs to be done. It really isn't that difficult, pretty simple actually. A good sized cam would not be hard at all to tune for that combo. Just takes some time.

 

If you want a cam that will be easy to tune in a 350 and is an alright performer, try the zz4 cam ( even though i'd even go bigger than that). 208*/221*, .506/.544 (w/1.6 rr), 112 lsa.

That cam u listed is mild for 305 standards, and that 116 lsa is gonna kill any top power end u were hoping to get.

 

I'm not shooting for top-end. I just want some brute low end torque, hence the 204/214 duration. For me personally, I believe TQ is what wins those red light to red light races. . .other than that, I still have to pick up the groceries in this thing and drive to Valdosta to visit my sister.

I guess we'll all find out in a few weeks what I'm actually putting down. I leave Saturday morning for a Counter-Drug Mission for a few weeks, and I'm hoping to drop the car off at the paint shop Friday evening. So we'll see. :lala:

I just think some of you might be putting too much emphasis on the huge cam and not enough on the right combo for my scenario and goal.

 

That ZZ4 cam would put down some serious torque AND would pull decently high. Look up JokerRS's buildup, he has World heads and a ZZ4 cam in a 350 and I remember him saying that "the torque is obscene". Just trying to save you some disappointment so the motor doesn't feel like its got a truck cam in it.

 

I think it is a truck cam.

No seriously.

 

Those specs you just game me are VERY similar to the Lt1 so I stand by my words.... upgrade!!!
The zz4 cam is excelent, so is the Lt4 hot cam. Trust me, you won't loose any low end torque with those 2 cams. Both will give you closer to 400hp and still let you run a small stall TC for daily driver etc. I've been in an Lt1 powered Hot cam T56 Impala SS and it has GOBS of torque below 2000rpm so trust me on this, you'll want bigger. Unless of course you plan on turning this thirdgen into a 4x4 and going rock crawling... then by all means you've got plenty of cam, .
A zz4 cam will do very nicely, that's my vote if you don't want to spend it on a hot cam. I think you can get a zz4 for like $100 on ebay brand new. It isn't hard to tune. What's hard to tune is an engine that is an extream either way and by no means is a peanut cam with high flow heads "a correct combo." You aren't taking advantage of the flow to make a difference between stock heads.
The zz4 cam is perfect, nice ls for keeping huge amounts of off idle torque, it's my vote for a budget and tuning perspective. Easily 360+ hp with TBI and pleny of torque.

 

I agree with JP and the others.

I picked up a new take-out ZZ4 cam for $95 from Sallee chevy. It will go in a 350 when I get time to get back to the project.

 

Gunny man, the ZZ4 cam has a ton of torque in a 350 and makes 355HP @ 5250 and 405 foot pounds @3500 with crappier heads then you got. If you are still worried about low end torque throw in a GM 2000 stall lockup TC for $200 like I did.

 

Well boys, she's in and RUNNING!:lala:

She started right up, but it running a little rich. I have the red/blue injectors (which if my memory serves me correctly is 85#'s. . .I keep forgeting ) and they were running at 18 psi, which is a little too much.

Either way though, I have plenty of injector for the motor, and now she just has to be detuned enough for me to get her over to the paint shop.:hail:

After she gets back, then I'll datalog and see what I can see.

P.S. - Yall should expect another thread to be started when I start to datalog, because I have no clue as to what I'm doing.



:lala: 5.7 TBI:lala:

 

OK, now after the motor is warmed up, she won't go any lower than 25 psi! We turned the screw all the way out on the VAFPR, but it won't go any further out and the psi won't drop. Our only idea is to put in the big block spring (orange) and see if we can detune that way.

Any ideas on how to turn down the fuel pressure? She's running too rich.

-The Gunny

 

wouldnt that BB orange spring give you more FP? the GM vafpr comes with orange. i am using stock crossfire spring and it is green if i recall. TDS sells another to up the FP over stock. and it is silver BUT i think that is just the unpainted variety the located from spring vendor. i believe i am at 11.5 lbs on cold idle. the gauge gets wierd when warm. my 1985 TPI GM pump only reads 17-19 lbs max. that walbro is obviously healthy. i guess too late now but i am running a peanut cam with nicely flowing heads. so in hindsight an error(max HP at 5000-5100 rpms/ heads flow to 6500rpms w/ proper cam per Edel). the bigger cam is going in soon(i hope). that peanut cam helped me learn basic tuning however. no lope to speak of, silky smooth idle.

 

Yeah, I wasn't sure exactly what would happen if we put the orange in or not, but it was worth a shot. So you ended up using a X-fire spring in order to get the fuel pressure low enough?? Do you have a part number or something that I could use to get one?

 

no part # unk to me BUT i suspect same as your current stock spring. regardless need to add FP gauge and calibrate to 12-14 lbs. the eprom BPW is set to that FP in constants. i bet turbo city has a stock spring for a 350 cid crossfire.

 

Gunny, can't you just try using your stock 305's regulator spring in the VAFPR. Honestly, IMO I would just used the stock regulator and not the vacuum advance and tune the chip for the fueling, I think that's the best way to go and really isn't hard to get right.

I got my Prominator in (and it worked for at least 2 days) and I have BLM's in the 145 range in some spots and 118's in other spots and I tuned the fuel to 127-129 in two chips. It isn't hard to dial in the fuel.

 

jesus, guys, let him get it in the car before you start ripping it apart!

gunny is a novice tuner, and obviously wanted to start small. ive watched his posts and he's done A LOT of research before he started bolting on parts. if he later decides he needs more cam, it's not THAT big of a deal to swap it out. he's making a lot of changes there, let him sort them out and figure out where he needs to go.

as far as fuel is concerned, gunny, here's the formula

Injector Size = (Expected HP @Flywheel X BSFC) / (# Of Injectors X Duty Cycle)

so, in gunny's case:

(360HP X .45 BSFC = 162)

(2 Injectors X .9 Duty Cycle = 2.222)

162 / 2.222 = 72.907

you'll need 73 lbs per hour per injector to support your goal of 360 horsepower. you should be able to adjust your fuel pressure downward to deliver that. if not, you can go back to #65 injectors and adjust the fuel pressure upward.

good luck, gunny! pm me and tell me how to get in contact with you, i want to come see it.

 

if i remember correctly, the stock 305 spring in the vafpr kept fuel pressure too low, while the gm spring that came with the vafpr kept it too hight. that's why the spring in the vafpr kit from top down solutions is different.

gunny, i have my tds vafpr and haven't installed it yet. if you want to try my spring, you're welcome to, but i thought you bought you vafpr from tds, too, didn't you?

if you did, shoot lon an email and explain the problem. i've found him to be really helpful and easy to work with.

 

Yeah, I do have the TDS spring, but we couldn't detune the fuel pressure below 25 psi. I don't have the stock 305 spring anymore. . . do you??

I'm thinking that I might need a weak spring so we can turn the thing down some more. Right now, we've just plugged off the vacuum to the regulator, but my little inline fuel pressure gauge is pinned at 25 psi.

 

were you successful in getting the torx screw busted loose? if you are gonna fiddle with FP you may wanna consider modifying the gm vafpr to allow you to move it by hand. you can fab that up yourself or pop for the turbo city unit. I think they just sell the cup already modded. dont see why you cant do yourself. a little silver solder on nut should do it. seems you have the screw cranked up way too much.

 

gunny,

i have a spare throttle body, i'll be glad to loan you the spring out of it IF you pledge to give up pornos for three months and to vote for john f. kerry in november.

 

no problem


not on your life.


P.S. - You've got mail.

 

ok, how about no porno for 30 days and admit it concerns you just a little when the commander-in-chief and most powerful man in the world pronounces "nuclear", "nuke-you-lur"

 

That's not how it's pronounced?

 

ummm ... nope

emailed your dad with my phone number. i can hook up with him today if he catches me pretty quickly. i'm playing in a poker tourney in vinings tonight and have to be there by 6.

 

OK....
Dad here.

Last thing I did was cranked the cup screw out to to give the spring max entension. The spring is silver/chrome. The vacuum (for the cup) is connected to a black/red delay and then into the TBI port that works the EGR.

The inline fuel pressure guage reads ~20lbs.

When the ignition key is turned to "run" (not start), the gauge pegs the needle then settles to ~13lbs then to zero.

Also of note...when running, the injector spray on the passenger side is about twice the amount as the driver side. Or, the driver side about half of the passenger side. It does seem that the flow is so high (passenger side) that it appears that drops of fuel are also part of the spray pattern.

The air/fuel gauge is reading from the driver side header collector. It swings about 2 bars above mid-point to 2 bars into the red zone.

The only springs I have here are the orange/redish and the tanish/greenish from the non-adjustable old TBI.

Now what ? ? ?

 

I'd say try the springs you have and see what lets you lower the pressure. Otherwise maybe you could cut down one of the springs, that would let you lower it.

 

Dad, again...

Disconnected the rigid return line from the rubber return. Inserted a air nozzle into the rubber return line and let the air pressure flow. I could hear the air escaping from the fuel tank. No blockage.

Turned the ignition key to "run". The fuel flows and the presure gauge jumps to ~20lbs then to ~13 then drops to zero.

Reconnected the return line.

Disconnected the rigid feed line from the rubber feed line. Turned the ignition key to "run". Fuel flows and the pressure guage reads zero.

Now what ? ? ?

Supposed to meet, Friday PM, Sean to get a spring. Not sure what kind of spring.

Hey, Bron, not sure I should be amputating the spring yet. There has to be a non-invasive and logical reason for the problem.

 

gunnydad,

i'd suggest getting in touch with lon at tds and seeing what he thinks. his number is 626.369.0040. you can email him at lon@topdownsolutions.com.

also, i think you should run it by the 2" throttle body guy. his email is: Horsepowerguy@sbcglobal.net, or you can find him on ebay. his handle is extreme-fi

i've dealt with both of them and found them to be very concerned and helpful.

what i have is a spare throttle body with the stock spring and fuel pressure regulator. i'd suggest swapping to the stock spring in the vafpr. if that doesn't work, i'd say try swapping to the stock fuel pressure regulator to rule out the vafpr being bad.

at first i wondered if it was a case of the fuel pump being too much for the combination, but, on the phone you said it was the same fuel pump that was working fine before.

reading what you wrote above, i wonder about the difference between one injector and the other. i'm thinking if the problem was with the fuel pump or the vafpr, you'd see the same problem with both injectors. since you aren't, i'm wondering if it might be a bad injector, although i don't see how that would affect the fuel pressure.

i'll call you in the afternoon to arrange to get that spare throttle body to you.

 

I've talked to Lon. He thinks that because the pressure is high that is/could causing the injector difference.

I've tried what Lon has suggested and am waiting for an update on the information.

Awaiting your call.

Also awaiting more ideas.

Thanks.

P.S. what are you doing awake at 4am?

 

one could ask you the same question, gunnydad.

i got home from my poker tournament and wanted to give you those email addresses.

i also have some sage advice .... sometimes, pocket aces lose to 72 offsuit in pre-flop all ins ........ trust me, i know

: (

 

Why would you plug off the vac to the reg if you're trying to lower the pressure at idle? That's gonna achieve the opposite

What is your source of vac for the regulator?

Have you checked your vac at idle with a vac gauge? You should have a degradation of 1 lb of fp for every 2" of vac (i.e. 18" of vac = 9 lb degradation)

 

Gunny-Dad here...

Actually, the vac is hooked back up. I forgot to mention that. I only have 3 ports 1)PVC 2) charcoal cannister 3)EGR. I am using the EGR port.

I have not checked vith vac guage.

 

Gunny-Dad here, again...

Update.
Disconnected the hard fuel line (in-flow) at TBI to eliminate that line. Pressure gauge stayed at zero and the fuel flowed. Reconnected line.

Removed the spring from a stock TBI with non-adjustable cup. Sorta dull green color. Installed it into the adjustable cup with the adjusting screw all the way out.

Fuel pressure stays at 13-1/2.

Air-fuel ratio above the green into the orange but not into the red. Fuel spray pattern seems to be OK for both injectors. It has a bit of a stumble when I goose the gas from idle and low rpms. Acts a little funny around 3000 rpm, but may just need some "tuning".

Going to put the hood on and drive it to the paint shop.

Thanks for everybody's thoughts and encouragement and assistance during this event.

Gunny-Dad's next project is to put a 350 into my Astro, if I can find a good donor vehicle.

 

OK yall, well as yall can see, my father was able to fix the fuel pressure problem, but now there are a couple of other issues popping up. . .

1.) My alternator seems to have died, even though it's only a year old and an AC Delco part. .

2.) The tranny won't kickdown when you floor it, it just stays in the same gear. . . I think that's got to do with the TV Cable?? Anybody have any ideas on that? I've had the tranny rebuilt 3 times, and I'm hoping this won't require that again, because I'm just going to buy a Pro-Built one this time if that's the case.

and 3.) The place I was going to go and get it painted at, is apparently out of business now.

Ya see what happens. . .I leave for 3 weeks and the whole plan goes to crap.

 

Ya you got the FP down to 13 1/2 so you can drive it at part throtle and idle with out being way rich till you tune it. But before you tune it you are going to have to jack the FP back up so that you will have enough fuel availible for WOT, and then correct the rich condition at idle and part throtle in the fuel table. Maybe you realize this allready. I just didn't want you to have to do your fuel table twice when you ran out of fuel later.
Good luck Gunny!

 

Alright, I'm finally back home from being TAD, so here's an update.

As suspected, it was simply a TV Cable adjustment needed to fix the kickdown issue.

So now, we're chasing down a wiring gremlin and trying to figure out why she won't hold a charge. The alternator checked out ok 50% of the time (2/4) and the battery was obviously drained from sitting for 3 months, but we think a wire might not be hooked up correctly.

JOKER: Yeah, I know about tuning, but we're just working these little things out to get her on the street before we datalog. It's these little things that always **** me off. I can take a broken A/C or a blown tranny, but things like battery drain and unsettled pads are what really **** me off.

 

Gunny Dad here....again.

Update.

Had an electrical problem. The alternator was not charging the battery. Long story short. Had a wire in the wrong place. So far, only one minor from removal to install and running.

Anywho, now that the battery and alternator in working as they should, a team, the fuel pressure is running ~17psi at idle. The air/fuel guage is showing 2 bars of orange above the 2 bars of green. Drives like is it flooding all the time.

In my previous posts, I detailed the current TBI set-up.

Now what???

Better hurry, I'm low on cold beer.

 

gunnydad, i think the injectors may be too big at that fuel pressure. if you can't get the fuel pressure any lower, i think you're going to have to go to smaller injectors.

before changing anything else, though, i'd suggest doing some datalogging and getting the opinions of some of the experienced tuners on here.

good luck